Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #38

[RichardKimble]

I think it is a plausible inference that the defence is stalling on procedural issues because it regards the case against its client as strong.

To what end, if it goes to trial and CB is convicted then any sentence will be added on at the end of 2026 one would venture, so the argument for delay only works if there is a protracted argument over whose jurisdiction is responsible and it drags on into 2026, Braunschweig might be best served to let it lie.

 

[Mex]

It's always an embarrassing moment if a bunch of investigators has to share their work with another bunch, whatever the reason for suddenly having to work with the other organisation is.

Don't know about embarrassing - more inconvenient and unfair to those who have concluded their investigation but might have to hand it over for others to complete the process.

Unfortunately there is enough crime left in the world to keep them busy and I think lessons will be learned from this episode.

 

[Mex]

Its difficult to assess the outcome of a change of jurisdiction and therefore a change in prosecutor. IMO

I agree to a certain extent with that statement except I think it ignores the value of the evidence which should stay constantly compatible with whatever lander of the federation in which the trial takes place.

It is a disadvantage to be sure for the team to be changed at this juncture, but nothing insurmountable.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

I think it is a plausible inference that the defence is stalling on procedural issues because it regards the case against its client as strong.

It is for the judge to decide once all the evidence is heard but I think you have summed up the situation with that one sentence.

The process against CB started when the five indictments were laid and the evidence against him was revealed to his defence team. Apparently there is a lot of it.
Something in that evidence spooked them.
My opinion

 

[Davieson]

I agree to a certain extent with that statement except I think it ignores the value of the evidence which should stay constantly compatible with whatever lander of the federation in which the trial takes place.

It is a disadvantage to be sure for the team to be changed at this juncture, but nothing insurmountable.
My opinion

yes, but evidence is open to interpretation, so nothing can be taken for granted. IMO

 

[Lyall0814]

Don't know about embarrassing - more inconvenient and unfair to those who have concluded their investigation but might have to hand it over for others to complete the process.

Unfortunately there is enough crime left in the world to keep them busy and I think lessons will be learned from this episode.

So the MM investigation is concluded? Are you breaking news here? Tabloid fingers are poised above their keyboards.

 

[Mex]

Quite frankly I don't see this as having anything to do with the McCanns, This jurisdiction issue pertains to the 5 sex abuse cases.

I agree with that statement at this moment in time. But time will move on and what is decided in the jurisdiction for these five cases might very well influence any charges and prosecution of the MM case.

How lucky is it that we are discussing the five as opposed to the one. This situation could really have thrown a spanner into the works there, proving the prosecution tactic of keeping the powder dry was a very sound approach.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

How very odd to blame the defence for the prosecution's shortcomings. The current 5 charges have nothing to do with the CB/MM case. You sound as if you think the current jurisdiction issue is what's delaying movement on the MM investigation/charge. It's not. Lack of credible evidence is what's delaying it, nothing to do with the pending cases or the defence.

Surely your frustration would be better directed at HCW here rather than the defence since HCW's the one falling short here by failing to bring a convincing case against CB before a judge, despite telling the world at large many many moons ago that a charge was more or less in the bag and just round the corner.

I disagree entirely that the prosecution have failed in any way whatsoever. The defence have used the system about which the prosecution has no power except the power to appeal.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

To what end, if it goes to trial and CB is convicted then any sentence will be added on at the end of 2026 one would venture, so the argument for delay only works if there is a protracted argument over whose jurisdiction is responsible and it drags on into 2026, Braunschweig might be best served to let it lie.

I believe this argument started in January 2023 - so your words could be quite prophetic.

 

[Mex]

yes, but evidence is open to interpretation, so nothing can be taken for granted. IMO

I'm sure it might very well be. But it was firm enough to have charges raised on the strength of it ready for trial and I have more faith than you that the same evidence will be carried through to conclusion wherever it goes. If it doesn't stand further scrutiny and isn't raised if not in its entirety at least in part, it will be quite extraordinary indeed.
My opinion

 

[Mex]

So the MM investigation is concluded? Are you breaking news here? Tabloid fingers are poised above their keyboards.

I do not understand your post, sorry ;(

 

[Sharkbite]

If the prosecutors have got the residency wrong, which one would think to be a simple matter , what else have they?

The things is CB was not registered as living in Nuewegersleben at the box factory. If I remember correctly his last registered address, where state receipts would show him receiving financial support from the government was at one of the allotments, I can't remember the name but I think it was the one south of Braunschwieg, not the one searched in Seelze.

 

[Mex]

yes, but evidence is open to interpretation, so nothing can be taken for granted. IMO

We are witnessing the perfect example that nothing can be taken for granted and who knows how much further down the road we will be taken before resolution.

What may be the letter of the law might not necessarily be an exponent of justice.
My opinion

 

[Hygge]

The things is CB was not registered as living in Nuewegersleben at the box factory. If I remember correctly his last registered address, where state receipts would show him receiving financial support from the government was at one of the allotments, I can't remember the name but I think it was the one south of Braunschwieg, not the one searched in Seelze.

I think it was the Gartenverein Kennelblick

 

[Davieson]

We are witnessing the perfect example that nothing can be taken for granted and who knows how much further down the road we will be taken before resolution.

What may be the letter of the law might not necessarily be an exponent of justice.
My opinion

In my opinion, only the naive resort to law expecting justice.

 

[Lyall0814]

I do not understand your post, sorry ;(

You said they've concluded their investigation. But they haven't finished the MM-related one presumably (that seems extremely unlikely anyway). If they have to move the five cases to a different court for trial or trials then that's surely going to impact the MM investigation because presumably they won't be able to have any trial related to that in Braunschweig either.

Why aren't you criticising the prosecutors? They've had six years to resolve this issue.

 

[misty48]

To what end, if it goes to trial and CB is convicted then any sentence will be added on at the end of 2026 one would venture, so the argument for delay only works if there is a protracted argument over whose jurisdiction is responsible and it drags on into 2026, Braunschweig might be best served to let it lie.

The problem I foresee is that if defence wins the right to have the 5 pending charges moved to another jurisdiction, such as Magdeburg, then they could also appeal CB's right to be tried in Portugal should charges be pressed in MM case. Germany can already be accused of breaching CB's human rights by keeping him in solitary confinement for several months.
As Braunschweig have been gathering evidence against CB in the MM case, I'm not sure how much of that CB's defence would be able to have excluded under the Portuguese system (should the case get that far) if Braunschweig aren't deemed to be the correct jurisdiction for the other 5 cases. It could potentially all turn into a potential minefield of legal arguments over the collection of evidence but I don't profess to being an expert in such matters.

Admissibility of Evidence in Criminal Proceedings in the EU

With the increase in volume and importance of cross-border investigations in the EU, ensuring the admissibility of evidence gathered in another Member State at trial is crucial − both for efficient law enforcement and for the protection of fundamental rights.…

eucrim.eu

 

[mrjitty]

OK so we've kinda established the reasonings, so the whys now , why is it important for the defence to have it moved , and if the Braunschweig appeal for what reason kudos ? one would hope the German system doesn't operates that way.

RSBM

This is just basic litigation tactics. If you can get the other side's case struck out pretrial, you do it.

 

[mrjitty]

I think HCW said he lend one of two prosecutors to the other jurisdiction so that doesn't really matter.

FF said he raised the jurisdiction issue at a preliminary, so hardly running out of options, the delay scenario only works if CB were in the last month's of his sentence imo, he's there until 2026, so any ulterior motive for a delay is a non starter.
I'm not into conspiracys, although it could argued the covering up of the truth in the MM case In a conspiracy, I can only come up with a couple of solutions into why CB's legal team need to establish a different place of domicile.

This isn't a "last resort"

It's a first resort.

Attacking the prosecution case pre-trial is just basic defence strategy. There is no 9D chess here.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm easy about when the question of CB's domicile was initially, raised but if it was at a preliminary stage of proceedings (and I believe it was) what a pity it is that it wasn't resolved sooner.

I don't know what your reference to a cover up in the MM case relates to, particularly since at the moment the courts are trying to sort out jurisdiction for five unrelated cases. Which those affected by the holdup have waited for many long years to have addressed in court.

BIB it can't be resolved sooner.

It can only be resolved when the charges were filed. No question of jurisdiction arises before then,