Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #16

[LittleRose]

I respectfully disagree, but am still keeping my mind open. But I really don't think it was either of the pilots. Whoever did this IMO is an evil person. Neither of the two pilots strike me as being evil people.



Captain Shah apparently supported democracy - giving the power to the people of Malaysia - why would he then turn around and kill some of those people? People are making his ties to "opposition parties" sound like he was affiliated with some kind of terrorists or "rogue" party. Since when is a believer in democracy someone "rogue"?



Captain Shah was educated. He seemed to live in the upper-class of society. He had a nice house and a nice family. I know this does not automatically clear him, but it helps us to understand his frame of mind.



He seemed to give back to his community. Why would he want to turn around and murder possibly some of those people?



I'm sorry but I believe this was done by an evil person, an evil persons, or an evil group.



JMO.

Even people (and countries) who believe in "democracy" may become entrenched and clouded in their position, convincing themselves that the ends justify the means. There's a good chance that this pilot believed he was a "freedom fighter" and his actions were a "necessary evil".


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[SilkySifaka]

Even people (and countries) who believe in "democracy" may become entrenched and clouded in their position, convincing themselves that the ends justify the means. There's a good chance that this pilot believed he was a "freedom fighter" and his actions were a "necessary evil".


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but there is not a shred of evidence of that imo

 

[popsicle]

In the U.S., Mr. McLaughlin's comments would have led to his and his company's immediate removal from any NTSB investigation, according to the board's procedures and rules. The U.K. and many other countries have similarly strict rules.

Boeing Co. and Rolls-Royce RR.LN +1.67% PLC, which made the Malaysian aircraft and its engines, have kept their silence and repeatedly refused to answer questions, citing restrictions of the continuing investigation.

http://online.wsj.com/news/article_...4579460171057002290-lMyQjAxMTA0MDIwNTEyNDUyWj

For those who didn't see the article.

 

[Prosecution_Rests]

It is not unheard of for a British company to come up with a solution that the U.S. does not have which is what happened here. Some brilliant mind realized they could use the known doppler effect to make a pattern using other flights both north and south and because of the movement in the doppler effect they could analyze where the plane ended up based on the handshakes and other info.

It does not have to have come from America first to be correct.

I never said it has to be. I am sure if there is a new, High Definition Satellite technology that America and China obviously does not even know about, they will be very happy to use it.

But we'll see for sure. Something so wonderful cannot be kept a secret.

 

[LittleRose]

OT per your post but just a note, I think "deliberate pilot action" sounds like a more appropriate term than "suicide" when you kill 238 people

I think "mass homicide" is more appropriate than "deliberate pilot action" or "suicide".


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[SilkySifaka]

In the U.S., Mr. McLaughlin's comments would have led to his and his company's immediate removal from any NTSB investigation, according to the board's procedures and rules. The U.K. and many other countries have similarly strict rules.

Boeing Co. and Rolls-Royce RR.LN +1.67% PLC, which made the Malaysian aircraft and its engines, have kept their silence and repeatedly refused to answer questions, citing restrictions of the continuing investigation.

http://online.wsj.com/news/article_...4579460171057002290-lMyQjAxMTA0MDIwNTEyNDUyWj

For those who didn't see the article.

Yes and if Malaysia had removed inmarsat from the investigation when it first came out with the first data points (the arcs) they would never have gotten the "beyond a reasonable doubt" data because the company wouldn't have bothered going the extra mile as they weren't a party to the investigation any more and it had been made clear they don't want their info.

IMO that would have deeply harmed this investigation and we still wouldn't be sure that the southern area of the southern indian ocean is where to put all assets.

To me it is cutting off your nose to spite your face, you remove the one company7 that came up with a desperately needed answer.

 

[Hatfield]

The thing is, the investigating agency is the one who should be giving the pressers and updating the public...period. If everyone involved starts giving out info then you get not only incorrect information released, but potentially an investigation put into jeopardy. imo When NTSB is running the investigation, you will notice that they update with a PC weekly. imo

A lot are making good points.

I mentioned earlier that I think the biggest issue with the main Malaysia announcement was just how they presented the information.

I do believe if they would have had a better spokesperson they could have achieved their goal of getting out the information and not getting so many people so mad at them.

The info came across as cold, callous, and lacked a good explanation of how they were making the decision that all were dead.

If they would have carefully chosen words and explained themselves better and done it in a different fashion, i think it could have been achieved much more tactfully.

 

[Waddles]

I think "mass homicide" is more appropriate than "deliberate pilot action" or "suicide".


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exactly, agreed, as I have stated in several posts earlier

 

[Hatfield]

It is actually very complex and interesting what the satellite company did. With such very little information, they were able to determine the planes most logical last location and it all seems correct IMO.

In addition to more complex analysis,
what really convinced me when I finally read and understood it is that they looked at other exact planes and compared the signals that those planes give from the different locations. In this way, they were able to determine where the plane had to be.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

We at WS, more so than your average Joe, have been clamouring for information for the last two weeks. We have gone over and over the same points in minute detail, and been hungry for more evidence, more science, more data.

Funny how now we have it, people are complaining too much has been said.

The UK investigators / Inmarsat are not stupid. They will not have "blabbed" anything they shouldn't have. If they had said nothing we wouldn't have believed their theory.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

[Steely Dan]

Someone mentioned the possibility of the hijackers parachuting out. That might explain the dip to 12,000 feet, if that altitude reporting is correct.

But where would they land? They would have to parachute out AFTER the South turn, right? The only possible land after that would be Indonesia.

Unless they jumped out right after they programming the left turn, but that would be in the middle of the water.

I'm going on what I remember from seeing a documentary of D.B. Cooper, so take this with a grain of salt my mind aint all that swift sometimes. (Like I need to tell anyone here that.) Anyhoo, the only reason D.B. Cooper could parachute from the plane is that it was a particular type of plane that allowed someone to do that. As far as I know it's impossible or nearly impossible to parachute from a commercial jetliner these days, IIRC.

 

[lawstudent]

Pulling this over from the other thread ..

Doesn't that sound just so imperialist. It's as if to say that 'some countries' with their 'new money' just have no business in the marketplace. There have been some not very thinly veiled comments made in media that sound downright racist to me in regards to Malaysia. All airlines face disaster from time to time, this one has been a genuine mystery and has taken the cooperation of 25 countries to get any headway with. I feel so sorry for the Malaysians that the media in countries that deem themselves 'more fit' to run airlines feel the need to Monday-morning quarterback them from the comfort of their TV studios.

Yeah it's ridiculous. There are a lot of countries I will not visit due to their safety regulations. But just as we give them breaks on pollution, we have no right to dictate their standards to match the ones we've reached after years of stability and economic success. Not that long ago "modern" countries had the same safety standards as developing ones. It's impossible to skip that stage of development, and trying to force it has not worked out too well. For a country to become focused on failproof measures, it has to first be in a point where it can worry about the worst case scenario. You only worry about the worst case scenario when you are living in a stable, wealthy, secure, organized society to begin with. It's not a moral issue - it's a resource issue, even if seems like they're "just not trying."

he only spoke about what his company did and I disagree strongly that it should all be hush hush. The malaysians tried that and see what happened.

We see what happened when it wasn't hush-hush - the media reported ridiculous things for weeks and didn't figure out anything useful. I am in favor of more information, not less, but both systems are usually used unproductively. This most likely wasn't solved due to public information, but rather due to behind-the-scenes investigation and working with the company. I forget what he said - if it really was just explaining the technology, I have no problem with that. I thought he made some more judgmental statements, though, but maybe I'm getting him confused with one of the clueless talking heads.

I think "mass homicide" is more appropriate than "deliberate pilot action" or "suicide".


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I think that would be the conclusion now, but it was pre-9/11 and planes weren't associated with murder, and random mass murdering for attention was less common. Also, I believe in that case it was linked to financial and family problems - so they felt it was more internally motivated than intended to kill the passengers, but obviously that doesn't mean much to those passengers. The other high profile case with the pilot fired for sexual harassment is probably more consistent with murder because it was probably more focused at getting back at the airline, but neither had any clear terrorist message and left it mysterious.

 

[aa9511]

Boeing last week received a US patent for a system that, once activated, removes all control from pilots to automatically return a commercial airliner to a predetermined landing location.

The “uninterruptible” autopilot would be activated – either by pilots, by onboard sensors, or even remotely via radio or satellite links by government agencies like the Central Intelligence Agency, if terrorists attempt to gain control of a flight deck.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...rrorism-auto-land-system-for-hijacked-210869/

The problem with that is that someone on the outside would have to first know that the plane is not on its scheduled route and thus something happened to the plane.

Because if both of the pilots are immediately rendered disabled somehow or another, they cannot push the buttons.

I guess it would be imperative to also upgrade the tracking systems on the planes.

 

[Elley Mae]

If I am not mistaken Inmarsat works for rolls-royce in that the information from the engines relays to the satellite is then looked at in reference to maintenance. So I am not sure that they can be silenced, besides I think after this they will be picking up on business. stocks? jmo idk

 

[lawstudent]

We at WS, more so than your average Joe, have been clamouring for information for the last two weeks. We have gone over and over the same points in minute detail, and been hungry for more evidence, more science, more data.

Funny how now we have it, people are complaining too much has been said.

The UK investigators / Immersat are not stupid. They will not have "blabbed" anything they shouldn't have. If they had said nothing we wouldn't have believed their theory.

Damed if they do, damned if they don't.

Agreed - they either have to keep the investigation quiet, or take more steps to clarify misinformation, but it's hard for them to win either way and keep control.

But the thing is, even though WS is the desired product of a free press, and members here do excellent research and should be a great watchdog for society, we still have no idea what's going on. When the media reports BS and we don't recognize it, we don't have good data to work with to make useful discoveries. I'd be okay with the media reporting the contents of every investigation if they could do it responsibly, but that's not realistic. However, I don't think suppressing information is okay either. I just think investigations can keep things quiet as long as they reveal the information in the end - just like police investigations are kept quiet, but they have to bring the info out at trial.

 

[aa9511]

Not sure i agree about the hijackers as I don't see a motive in this case, no one is terrorized or afraid of a certain group right now, they see a plane missing

That said I agree totally about Inmarsat. They have turned out to be heroes in this, without them we would be s o l. It is beyond comprehension why the ntsb or other countries air safety investigations would have removed them from the investigation for their comments. Talk about not wanting answers. Or wanting to give zero credit and zero public comments. I think its outrageous. I will never trust an ntsb investigation again

bbm

ITA. I was shocked when I read that in the post upthread.

Admittedly, I am critical of the way Malaysia has handled the outflow of information. I think they are doing it in the guise of "ongoing investigation," but the problem I have with that is - how do we know if they are even going to continue the investigation into any possible criminal aspect to this? They could easily just say "case closed," type up a report in a couple of years, blaming it on some mechanical problem which their "engineers discovered" - how are we ever going to know whether that is true or not? They coudl very easily hide any terrorist-related event for one reason or another (for example: it might reduce tourism to their country, or something like that). Or: they would have to explain how the terrorists got through their airport security. This would in turn hurt their airports and airlines.

But I am not willing to go so far as saying that this could only have happened in Malaysia or a similar country.

No, I believe virtually any government might try to do a cover-up in a situation like this. It's much easier for them. Just dust over and let's not deal with all the repercussions.

The thing is that in countries like the U.S., there are laws which allow for people like journalists, or anyone in the public, to access certain information. Meaning, the government can try to hide it, but hopefully they can't succeed. Someone can uncover the truth if they tried.

But IMO, that would be much harder in Malaysia. I don't know if a Judge will say, ok you have to release this information to this person who is asking to see it. Probably there is a lot of corruption and the government would be able to hide a lot of things.

JMO.

 

[Tiepos]

…

Monica Kelly, an attorney at Ribbeck Law Chartered who plans to file suit against Malaysia Airlines and Boeing, believes that based on her experience, families could receive between $400,000 and $3 million in damages. However, it could take two years before they see the money, she said.

And a lot depends on where the lawsuits are filed. Plaintiffs tend to be awarded much larger sums in U.S. courts than in other countries, said Mike Danko, an aviation lawyer with Danko Meredith who estimates some awards could be as large as $6 million to $8 million.

…

U.S. attorneys are already on the ground in Beijing, where many of the families are awaiting news of their loved ones in a hotel.



http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/21/news/companies/malaysia-airlines-insurance/

BARF. The vultures are already circling these grieving families, looking for their little chunk of the pie.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm going on what I remember from seeing a documentary of D.B. Cooper, so take this with a grain of salt my mind aint all that swift sometimes. (Like I need to tell anyone here that.) Anyhoo, the only reason D.B. Cooper could parachute from the plane is that it was a particular type of plane that allowed someone to do that. As far as I know it's impossible or nearly impossible to parachute from a commercial jetliner these days, IIRC.

From what little I recall,
I believe you are correct that the particular plane DB Cooper chose was done on purpose by him because it had a rear-door that allowed him to exit the rear of the plane.

IMO,
I do think it is still possible to pull it off on today's jet liners but the odds of survival would not be too good because I dont think the doors are directly in the back. The odds of bouncing off the fusalage are great and could kill you. Although we have seen videos of sky jumpers accidentally falling out and getting tangled on their own plane and stuff like that. Although those are small prop planes going much slower.

The main thing that would have to happen is to get low enough and release all cabin pressure before opening any doors. Then it would be a crap shoot whether the guy would hit the side of the plane and kill himself. Or hit the tail.

Planes these days may even have devices that prevent a door from even being opened while in flight, but I am not sure about that part. Cabin pressure being released could be done. Whether or not there is some sort of switch that the pilot has to throw to allow doors to open I am not sure about. But even with that, the hijacker could throw that switch.

So I am going with

FINAL DEDUCTION = Possible but not probable with a high risk of death.

 

[Waddles]

sunrise in an hour, the weather seems a bit better from what I can see?

 

[Waddles]

The search for Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 resumes off the West Australian coast this morning after a day-long pause due to bad weather.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/