Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #9

[lilblue]

Much to my surprise, CNN explained this rather well yesterday afternoon.

ONE satellite sends a "handshake" (i.e., automatic signal) to ONE plane and the plane responds. The time it takes for the signal to get to the plane and return gives them the distance ("X miles") between the satellite and the plane. (Signals travel at a constant speed: the speed of light.) (This process is repeated hundreds of times per hour with hundreds of planes.)

But one ping can't tell them the direction the "handshake" travelled. So they are left with a circle around the satellite of X miles in all directions.

That circle has been narrowed down to the two arcs based on factors like time travelled, amount of fuel, speed capacity of the 777, etc. But there is nothing (except human hunches) to say whether the flight went north or south. (It didn't have enough time or fuel to reach the east and west quadrants of the circle by 8:11.)

It would take a SECOND satellite to enable them to triangulate (remember Pythagoras) and pinpoint the actual location of the plane at the time of the ping. GPS uses three satellites and, with a fourth one, can also give altitude of the plane (or your car).

Bottom line: if the "ping" info is correct, then the plane was somewhere along one of those arcs at 8:11 a.m. It does NOT tell us anything about which way the plane was headed or how it got to that point. They estimate MA370 had about an hour of fuel left at the time of the ping, so they are searching an area about 200 miles on both sides of the arcs.

What I'd like to see is the arcs created for all the pings, not just the last one. They have this data of course, but I'd really like to see it to get an idea of their direction of travel from the last known radar position.

 

[Isabelle]

Anyone know how it can be told which plane is picked up by radar or satellite.

 

[Boodles]

bbm

Yes, I realize it's not the flight path. But I don't know if the bolded part is accurate? I don't think it's just one point. They made the arc out of the satellite pings which the engine was sending to Boeing (or something like that). IIRC, the pings were coming in every hour. So that would make it more than one ping. They were getting pings throughout the night. That's how they came up with these arcs - one to north and one to south.

No, this is the 8:11am arc only and the plane would be on/near one point along this arc only. The other hourly arc plots have not been published to the public. I wish they were, as it would be very telling!

There is a guy on CNN who does an excellent explanation of the derivation of this arc.

 

[aa9511]

I agree with you. All this information given out then taken back. Malaysia doesn't know what happened and are just throwing out whatever. I may be naive but I really think it's gonna be found eventually close to where it last had communication.

Of course I could change my mind in the next hour.


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"Taken back" b/c they've been told to shut up. IMO.

They already disclosed too much with the flight arcs.

Intelligence agencies are all over this behind-the-scenes, I have no doubt.

They don't want the terrorists knowing what information they have. So because of that, they can't let the public know either.

JMO.

 

[Mahouston69]

Just to clarify, the arc is not a flight path. It just shows (if it's accurate) where the plane may have been, at one point (only) on this arc line, at 8:11am.

I also wonder whether it's accurate, since so many other data assumptions are not.

Exactly. It was created to show how far the plane could have flown on remaining fuel within the satellite signal area. I don't believe the plane got any further than the last sighting on military radar. To avoid radar and still fly it would have had to remain "under the radar" and I do not believe that happened without anyone seeing it, as it continued to fly over ships, under other planes and over populated areas. I think it went down right where military radar lost it and I believe unenhanced Tomnod tiles have shown possible crash debris dated a day or two after the crash, but by the time the search was moved there....to the Malacca Straight, it had all completely sunk OR been retrieved and moved, by Malaysia.

 

[~n/t~]

ISRAEL PREPARES FOR POSSIBLE ATTACK BY HIJACKED MALAYSIAN PLANE
As the possibility--however remote--grows that Malaysia Airlines flight 370 may have been hijacked and taken to a hidden location, Israeli authorities are preparing for the possibility that the hijackers might attempt to use the Boeing 777 to mount an attack.

According to the Times of Israel, Israel's Channel 2 has revealed that Israeli air defenses have been boosted, and approaching civilian aircraft will be asked to identify themselves far earlier.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/16/Israel-Prepares-for-Attack-by-Hijacked-Malaysian-Plane

 

[lawstudent]

Re Bolded part.

Exactly. Like why cant those systems just transmit the GPS coordinates like every 5 minutes. Is that too much to ask for. Geeeesshhhh

The reason black boxes are not easy to pinpoint and only record two hours, I assume, is because they have to remain on and yet also survive a plane crash. They have to have some sort of very powerful battery to keep going that long over such a large area yet not get destroyed on impact or in a fire. There's only so much they can accomplish unless we found some new way of powering them. I imagine communicating with a GPS satellite drains energy faster but I don't know (I know my phone burns energy fast when I use googlemaps, but I'm sure there are differences).

And it sounds like the systems that work normally do give GPS coordinates, but they were turned off. The remaining "pings" are the result of it connecting to a GPS satellite, right? But it seems like they are not super accurate -- is that because the plane moves so fast?

ETA: Thanks for the CNN explanation - that clears it up.

As for the families members being "held" or "allowed" - this isn't the U.S. They don't have our rights in a crisis situation, especially not in terms of media and speech.

 

[Boodles]

Much to my surprise, CNN explained this rather well yesterday afternoon.

Yes! He does a great job! He explains it every few hours or so...

 

[rhapsdy]

Much to my surprise, CNN explained this rather well yesterday afternoon.

ONE satellite sends a "handshake" (i.e., automatic signal) to ONE plane and the plane responds. The time it takes for the signal to get to the plane and return gives them the distance ("X miles") between the satellite and the plane. (Signals travel at a constant speed: the speed of light.) (This process is repeated hundreds of times per hour with hundreds of planes.)

But one ping can't tell them the direction the "handshake" travelled. So they are left with a circle around the satellite of X miles in all directions.

That circle has been narrowed down to the two arcs based on factors like time travelled, amount of fuel, speed capacity of the 777, etc. But there is nothing (except human hunches) to say whether the flight went north or south. (It didn't have enough time or fuel to reach the east and west quadrants of the circle by 8:11.)

It would take a SECOND satellite to enable them to triangulate (remember Pythagoras) and pinpoint the actual location of the plane at the time of the ping. GPS uses three satellites and, with a fourth one, can also give altitude of the plane (or your car).

Bottom line: if the "ping" info is correct, then the plane was somewhere along one of those arcs at 8:11 a.m. It does NOT tell us anything about which way the plane was headed or how it got to that point. They estimate MA370 had about an hour of fuel left at the time of the ping, so they are searching an area about 200 miles on both sides of the arcs.

oh man I feel like I'm back in math class with a one of those "if one train is going so fast...and another train is going so fast...where would they meet?". Only now we are talking about a plane.

Before this last ping, where was the last location that they had tracking data from the plane? Am I correct that they have a general location of the plane for that one? Is there not a way to take that location, the approximate amount of fuel that would be left, and assuming they continued flying at "regular" speed, figure out approximately where on that arc the plane might have been at the time of this last ping? I'm not skilled in math or even have the information to do this, but just thinking it must be possible.

 

[lawstudent]

Anyone know how it can be told which plane is picked up by radar or satellite.

I don't think you can tell - just the size and where it's coming from, so they judge based on that, and then they will make contact with it if they are unsure. That's why planes have been shot down accidentally.

Airlines and I'm sure the military have monitoring systems that track their own planes, but I don't think they can tell which enemy plane is which definitively.

"Taken back" b/c they've been told to shut up. IMO.

They already disclosed too much with the flight arcs.

Intelligence agencies are all over this behind-the-scenes, I have no doubt.

They don't want the terrorists knowing what information they have. So because of that, they can't let the public know either.

JMO.

Agreed - whatever Malaysia is doing, I highly doubt the U.S. is backing down. It's hard to judge anyone's behavior right now because I believe the U.S. is probably telling people how to act and there's a reason certain information is being kept secret. The U.S. doesn't seem eager to share information, so that would indicate they are concerned and involved and telling people to release only certain information. Maybe they're releasing contradicting reports on purpose. U.S. officials could easily correct the reports coming out if they want to, but they seem to be reasonably okay with the chaos, and even Malaysia isn't protesting that much.

 

[Mama_Owl]

Live update from Malaysia coming up on CNN

 

[Mama_Owl]

Is there a map of the airports the plane could have landed at within the two corridors?

 

[Nova]

whoops type-O

Not Stimulator --- I MEAN ----> SIMULATOR

I will shut up now....and Drink My coffee and wake my fingers up....LOL

You and your potty mouth just can't help yourselves, can you?

(I'm kidding, of course.)

 

[Isabelle]

ISRAEL PREPARES FOR POSSIBLE ATTACK BY HIJACKED MALAYSIAN PLANE
As the possibility--however remote--grows that Malaysia Airlines flight 370 may have been hijacked and taken to a hidden location, Israeli authorities are preparing for the possibility that the hijackers might attempt to use the Boeing 777 to mount an attack.

According to the Times of Israel, Israel's Channel 2 has revealed that Israeli air defenses have been boosted, and approaching civilian aircraft will be asked to identify themselves far earlier.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/16/Israel-Prepares-for-Attack-by-Hijacked-Malaysian-Plane

Wondering if this is just out of extra caution or they received some sort of intelligence on this.

 

[ToutCa]

Is there not a way to take that location, the approximate amount of fuel that would be left, and assuming they continued flying at "regular" speed, figure out approximately where on that arc the plane might have been at the time of this last ping?

All they know is that at 8:11am, the plane's ping shows it was somewhere along the northern or southern red lines.

There is no way to pinpoint where.

Since the plane had up to an hour of fuel to fly AFTER 8:11am, the plane could have continued from its location on whatever unknowable point on the two red lines it was in ANY direction.

Thus the search area of many millions of square miles over land and sea. Without more info, they're stuck with that sad reality.

 

[PrairieWind]

Seems likely to me that if the plane was hijacked, it likely pinged from the northern arc. If it was pilot suicide, more likely the southern arc.

 

[Tssiemer]

I'm not going to lie, I love the simulator on cnn.

Eta: anyone else watching just now realized the guy in the simulator just said you have to go down to the electronics bay to unplug the ACARS and then Wolf was like "yeah it can be turned off from the cockpit" or something to that extent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MsFacetious]

Jon Ostrower ‏@jonostrower 7m

I won't endorse or disapprove any theory. I will, however, offer facts to at least inform the discussion taking place around #MH370.

Jon Ostrower ‏@jonostrower 54m

If #MH370 was going to shadow any other jetliner, it would have to be done visually in the middle of the night with no TCAS display.


Jon Ostrower ‏@jonostrower 57m

Correct me here, but after talking to several 777 pilots, a 777 cannot passively receive traffic info w/o an active transponder. #MH370

https://twitter.com/jonostrower

 

[shygrl]

Anyone know how it can be told which plane is picked up by radar or satellite.

I think (not sure) that when the plane does it's "handshake" it transmits information about the plane...I have heard so much information though I may be wrong. I kinda feel like I am on overload with all the information and misinformation.

 

[LinasK]

ISRAEL PREPARES FOR POSSIBLE ATTACK BY HIJACKED MALAYSIAN PLANE
As the possibility--however remote--grows that Malaysia Airlines flight 370 may have been hijacked and taken to a hidden location, Israeli authorities are preparing for the possibility that the hijackers might attempt to use the Boeing 777 to mount an attack.

According to the Times of Israel, Israel's Channel 2 has revealed that Israeli air defenses have been boosted, and approaching civilian aircraft will be asked to identify themselves far earlier.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/03/16/Israel-Prepares-for-Attack-by-Hijacked-Malaysian-Plane

Okay, now I'm worried- I have family living in Israel.lease:lease:lease: