Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

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  • #241
Yes, it just doesn't seem possible that she didn't have many scratches and abrasions. That happens with hiking even when you are perfectly able-bodied.

Not necessarily. Tropical forest has a soft floor, mosses etc. Natives often walk barefoot.

As regards mosquitos, this must have been a minimum problem as the houses were open plan.

I think we need to take a middle road - the parents stating there was no way Nora would be capable within the circumstances and conditions they had experienced and known with her - and a Nora who was exposed to very different circumstances and who possibly dared to do something different.
 
  • #242
Can't really see any child being brave enough to sneak out on the first night of a holiday, in a fairly remote place and after a long trip. JMO
Just googled - 6:48 am Friday, 28 August 2020
Dawn in Kuala Lumpur, Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Her father discovered her missing around 8.30 am so approximately an hour and half of daylight hours till she was discovered missing?

"Nora's family discovers she is missing at 8.30am on the first morning of their stay.
The window in the room where Nora was sleeping is found open."
Nora Quoirin: A timeline of events
 
  • #243
Bolded by me.

How can it be possible that this family was not awake before this time? No curtains, only open walls and as previously posted all the noises of the forest coming to life.
 
  • #244
Not necessarily. Tropical forest has a soft floor, mosses etc. Natives often walk barefoot.

As regards mosquitos, this must have been a minimum problem as the houses were open plan.

I think we need to take a middle road - the parents stating there was no way Nora would be capable within the circumstances and conditions they had experienced and known with her - and a Nora who was exposed to very different circumstances and who possibly dared to do something different.
She wasn't native. The surrounding jungle has frequently been described as rough terrain.
 
  • #245
  • #246
  • #247
Stranger approached Brit girl in airport day before her fatal disappearance
I wouldn’t normally share an article from the Mirror- but this has a really good transcript and description of the day in court. The police looked at the airport CCTV because the parents thought they had been followed. The siblings had their only interview (that we know got cut short from news reports last summer) about the airport incident. Nóra went out for a walk after check in and she headed towards the deer enclosure and returned telling her mum she liked the animals, her mum didn’t go on the walk and no one else is mentioned as going on a walk with her.
Do you know where in the map the deer were kept? Near the chickens coop?
FA_DusunMap_v3_170531-copy.jpg

Map of the Dusun - The Dusun

Edit: found it. Thanks to Seni.
17011152-7334545-image-a-47_1565205581211.jpg
 
  • #248
I wonder if she went out to see the deer again and walked in the wrong direction.
 
  • #249
The fact that she didn't really have any sings of being out there is very strange. But why would anyone abduct Nóra, keep her for 7 days and then just leave her out there? She didn't have any injuries, did she? So nobody hurt her, correct? She was also the oldest child in that room, and I assume, the hardest one to abduct. I don't understand how the mother can say that she wouldn't react if she was abduct when the whole narrative was that Nóra was very shy and never left her mother's side.
The whole narrative about Nóra being very shy, very quiet, not trusting of others, of being someone that wouldn't be "brave" enough just to take off on her own anywhere, and of having extensive disabilities, including mobility issues, doesn't seem to match the reality. I didn't know this child, but it kind of seems like her parents didn't knew her either. Was a nanny caring for her back home?
 
  • #250
What I don't get is that the K-9 didn't trace her scent up to the deer park.
She had gone to the deer park the day of arrival? Then she should have at least left a trace up to the deer park.
Not even that was detected!
 
  • #251
What I don't get is that the K-9 didn't trace her scent up to the deer park.
She had gone to the deer park the day of arrival? Then she should have at least left a trace up to the deer park.
Not even that was detected!
Interesting article on scents in more extreme weather conditions ( as would be the case in Malaysia)


Misty foggy nights and early morning when the dew is fresh on the grass is the best time for tracking and trailing with dogs. Additionally, scenting is great during light rain showers because the scent particles will absorb the moisture and expand making them easier for the dog to follow.

Warm dry days remove the moisture from the scent by evaporation of the moisture which holds the particles together, expanded and in place. Once enough moisture is removed from the particles the scent particles will float more and move more off of the actual foot steps of the person the dog is seeking.

The scent cloud can swift in the lightest breeze on a dry day but on a wet day the scent cloud will collect in puddles and wet areas where the dog can find the scent more easily.
Family-Disaster-Dogs: Rain and Search Dog Tracking - We're Just Trailing in the Rain
 
  • #252
I had to trawl back through other posts- but it was this one comment that was in a few papers that’s always bothered me- I feel the siblings would have a whole different perspective to the parents (the same as every other family dynamic).

As a huge search got under way, Nora’s Belfast-born mother Meabh and French father Seb say local police told them it was a possible abduction – yet cops later ruled that out.

Local police chief Datuk Mohamad Mat Yusop said information from one of the girl’s two siblings suggested no crime had taken place.

He said: “A search of the girl’s room at the resort did not turn up any evidence of a criminal element in her disappearance.

“The victim’s sister noticed that one of the windows in the room was opened on the morning she went missing, and believes Nora had gone out the window herself.
 
  • #253
I am maybe the only one who doesn't see a mystery here.

We have a girl whose parents underestimate her. They claim she can't walk unassisted, but clearly she can. They say she is shy and doesn't leave their side... but it's also possible that they don't allow her to have much independence. That is, they are the ones who don't leave her side, and not the other way around.

The girl loves waterfalls. She takes a trip to a place with a waterfall. She's so looking forward to seeing it that when she wakes in the night, she heads out to find it. Her jet-lagged family doesn't hear her.

She gets lost, and dies of starvation. She's found in a place that is said to be in "dense jungle" but which takes able-bodied people 10 minutes to get to from the resort. It took her a week to get there.

She wasn't assaulted, sexually or otherwise. It took what, a week to find her? She kept moving around during that time, trying to get out, or to find the waterfall. Poor kid.
 
  • #254
I think this may be the first time we’ve had it confirmed that Nora’s feet were not injured that I can recall. We’ve wondered about that. So could that mean that Nora was carried away? Could she have been kept somewhere and not fed until “she had succumbed to intestinal bleeding from starvation and stress after spending a week in the rainforest” as the autopsy stated. Technically, that would not be foul play, but more of a passive murder...being allowed to die “naturally” from starvation. If her feet were not injured, she didn’t get to the stream where her body was found and lie down to die on her own.

If this is how it happened, and it wasn’t a kidnapping for ransom, who could have taken her (without raising an alarm) and for what purpose? They hadn’t been there long enough for anyone to befriend her and gain her trust. She wasn’t a tiny child left alone like Madeleine McCann. I think there is a lot of information we don’t have. I hope it comes out at the inquest.

@Satchie as I finished writing this post I saw yours which makes some very good points. I really wish the inquest would include testimony from people in London (besides her parents) who are aware of Nora’s abilities and limitations...teachers, doctors, physical therapists, etc. That way we’d know if she was capable of walking that far carefully, so her feet wouldn’t get cut up. Would she even have the ability to climb out the window, as LE seems to suggest?

As an aside, I will say that I don’t like the fact that her parents are suing the resort. There should have been no expectation of a secure environment, so it’s not a good look IMO.

OK - this is slightly off topic but I want to share with you a scenario which deals with questions around capabilities and how sometimes, children of whatever age, are more inclined and capable to do things than parents give them credit for..
I am 50 years old and a twin. When I was a young child -2 years old to be exact, medicine bottles did not have the security caps on them that we see these days .
So, my twin sister and I decided to have a party with smarties and milk, only the smarties were foul tasting tablets .
Because we ‘egged’ each other on, no matter what we did, having seen our parents get these so called ‘ smarties ‘ out of the cupboard which was very high up top and almost impossible for either of us to reach, it became a challenge . So we managed to drag a chair from the dining table and put it against the lower kitchen cupboards. We then climbed onto the kitchen worktop and tried to reach for the handle of the cupboard containing the smarties. We couldn’t reach so my sister got a kitchen ladle And passed it to me and then I was able to not only get the upper cupboard door open but I was also able to use the ladle to scoop items out of this cupboard, these items being our ‘smarties’ in pretty glass colour bottles.
Having these in our possession, we then got our ‘sippy’ cups and filled them with milk. Now we were ready for our party .
My mum apparently woke up in bed with a startled OMG. As she scrambled out my Dad asked what the problem was that made her jump out of bed in the middle of the night. My mums just shouted ‘the twins’ and ran to our bedroom sensing that we were in trouble. Not finding us in our beds, she then ran down stairs only to find us in the kitchen , surrounded by milk and our ‘smarties’... Que the ambulance being called and us both being rushed to the old infirmary to have our stomachs pumped . To this day I have vague memories of an unhappy nurse , dressed all in white with a white square hat and her giving me what I have come to since find out was charcoal. Suffice to say that it was 48 years ago and things are very different now but essentially we had observed our parents taking their medication and not knowing what it was, we presumed it was smarties ( candy ) and decided to eat it and drink our milk . Fortunately , mothers instinct kicked in, even from a deep sleep, and no lasting harm was done . But my point is this - if we polled people as to the likelihood of us being capable of doing such a thing, I bet the results would be an astounding’NO WAY WOULD A 2 YEAR OLD BE CAPABLE OF TAKING AN OVERDOSE “.... But we did.
Although this is something entirely different altogether, the fact still remains that when faced with something which seems like fun or exciting or interesting or a challenge , it’s amazing how able bodied children are and can accomplish what they set their mind to, even if parents believe otherwise and in the case of Nora, I suspect that because of the time difference so not sleepy and the exotic location and the wonderful smells and talk of waterfalls, she quite possibly decided to go and explore , not realising the implications of such and the dangers appertaining to her as a mobility restricted child but she continued on nether the less ...
My situation was talked about time and time again and people were stupefied that we were able to achieve such a feat .... but we did and children can be far more capable than we give credit for!
All MOO
 
  • #255
But bear in mind the cosmovision. What is typical to shamans is that something occurred because of a lack of balance between the natural world and this world that we are living in.

What could that mean in real terms?
And I think that most of us on here are ignorant to the cultural beliefs and intricacies of what is involved in the world of ‘Shamans’ and therefore, what seems odd and weird and other descriptives used by fellow Websleuths posters , is not at all odd to those who are practicing and believe in Shamans powers. I don’t mean to be offensive to any person when stating the aforementioned, I just think that as humans, sometimes we tend to dismiss things that we don’t necessarily fully understand and comprehend, especially when super powers and magic abilities are brought to the table. All MOO
 
  • #256
And I think that most of us on here are ignorant to the cultural beliefs and intricacies of what is involved in the world of ‘Shamans’ and therefore, what seems odd and weird and other descriptives used by fellow Websleuths posters , is not at all odd to those who are practicing and believe in Shamans powers. I don’t mean to be offensive to any person when stating the aforementioned, I just think that as humans, sometimes we tend to dismiss things that we don’t necessarily fully understand and comprehend, especially when super powers and magic abilities are brought to the table. All MOO
Exactly. Great post.
 
  • #257
I am maybe the only one who doesn't see a mystery here.

We have a girl whose parents underestimate her. They claim she can't walk unassisted, but clearly she can. They say she is shy and doesn't leave their side... but it's also possible that they don't allow her to have much independence. That is, they are the ones who don't leave her side, and not the other way around.

The girl loves waterfalls. She takes a trip to a place with a waterfall. She's so looking forward to seeing it that when she wakes in the night, she heads out to find it. Her jet-lagged family doesn't hear her.

She gets lost, and dies of starvation. She's found in a place that is said to be in "dense jungle" but which takes able-bodied people 10 minutes to get to from the resort. It took her a week to get there.

She wasn't assaulted, sexually or otherwise. It took what, a week to find her? She kept moving around during that time, trying to get out, or to find the waterfall. Poor kid.
The only mystery if find is why her parents overstated her disabilities and why they would not allow the siblings to be interviewed?
 
  • #258
I think she would have been in rough shape after more than a week alone in the jungle. Either it appears she roamed the rainforest alone for 9 days or it appears she was (mostly) clean, scratch and bug bite free.

I don’t know what happened to her, but I think it’s pretty clear if she wandered alone for so long and starved to death her body would show it beyond a doubt. No question. If it didn’t...well, there is the mystery.

She only died a day or so before found?
 
  • #259
I'm not making any claims to be an expert but I made a pretty extensive study of (American) shamanism when I was younger and in just the last couple years I've had a passing interest in Indonesian folklore which I assume is fairly similar to Malaysian

That's why I've said numerous times that I wouldn't be at all surprised if the indigenous or just more superstitious locals saw her as a supernatural creature to be very cautious of.

One other theory I've had that I haven't voiced until now is that it might also have been a possibility that a local may have with good intentions or at least no malice taken her in as we might take in an injured animal. When you take in an injured animal you often will believe that it's fine and safe but it's actually so disrupted from its natural environment that after a few days it just dies. This may very well have been what happened with a developmentally handicapped girl taken into a hut by people speaking another language and offered food she had never seen before. It also wouldn't surprise me if after their "guest" had died that they might carefully wash her body and take her back to the place they found her or a place with spiritual significance.

If this is the case it would be especially tragic and show yet another breakdown in communications with the locals not understanding that she was being looked for and that a reward was offered, maybe just because that information was never conveyed to them in a way they would understand.
 
  • #260
It is strange to me that Nora didn't respond to the searchers, especially her mothers voice, if she was really was in the forest. In accounts I've read of lost special needs kids where there was a fear of them hiding the kids were nonverbal, nonresponsive--which Nora wasn't. She interacted with people, there were lots of stories told about that at her funeral. If Nora were self-sufficent enough to get to the forest by herself I think she would have been self-sufficient enough not to hide from rescuers, especially with her mother's voice being broadcast. I don't think she was in the jungle the entire time she was missing.
 
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