Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[Salem]

And, what seems apparent to me is that Rebecca did not know that others were claiming Max died or suffocation and/or that this was seen as a deliberate act. I don't think she knew at all a bout Dina contacting Child Services and the intent of that? Certainly, I'd think Jonah knew?

Link this up please. Where was it reported that DS called CPS? I haven't seen that. I admit I'm running way behind - there is only one of me and at least 30 posters at any given time in this forum

Salem

 

[Salem]

When I ask for links guys - it is not because I'm hammering you, it is because I just can't read every post made and while I try to keep up with the media thread, I do fall behind.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[CDS22]

Dr. Peterson would likely not agree with himself at this point. The autopsy superseded his prior speculation. For all we know Dr. Peterson was present at the autopsy. Whatever he said on the day the search warrant was issued is irrelevant to what is known after the autopsy.

I'm sorry you can't visualize the injuries due to the fall of a conscious child. It's not a struggle for me at all. Conscious children fall all the time, fortunately they are usually not mortally wounded.

You are assuming there is a contradiction between Dr. Peterson's findings and the ME's findings. There need not be. The final cause of death has nothing to do with whether or not MS was unconscious at the time of his fall.

As far as your second paragraph goes, "visualization" has nothing to do with how MS fell. I'm talking science.

 

[CDS22]

Link up Dr. Peterson's info for me please.

Thanks,

Salem

Sure:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7153871#post7153871"]Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2 - Page 5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[CDS22]

Science? Considering you have been making all kind of statements of what supposedly couldn't happen during the fall, what are your scientific qualifications?

One doesn't need to be a scientist to know basic mathematical equations. Velocity is one of them.

And speaking of qualifications, how many here hold the medical degrees and expertise that Dr. Brad Peterson does?

 

[CDS22]

And for those questioning Dr. Peterson's credentials earlier:

http://www.chsdpicu.org/

 

[CDS22]

Science? Considering you have been making all kind of statements of what supposedly couldn't happen during the fall, what are your scientific qualifications?

And respectfully, I've provided links for every assertion.

 

[greenpalm]

You are assuming there is a contradiction between Dr. Peterson's findings and the ME's findings. There need not be. The final cause of death has nothing to do with whether or not MS was unconscious at the time of his fall.

Hmmm. Unconscious from what? We've established that he wasn't suffocated. Dr. Peterson initially entertained the possibility that Max had suffocated, but autopsy results show otherwise. Dr. Peterson's concern was that upon external examination, he couldn't explain the cardiac arrest. Therefore, he postulated; perhaps he was suffocated prior to the fall. He was basing this on the cardiac arrest, not on the spinal contusion, which he could not have been aware of until AFTER the autopsy. So, on what basis do you claim that Dr. Peterson thought Max was unconscious when he fell? Do you have a link or source for Dr. Saying so?

As far as your second paragraph goes, "visualization" has nothing to do with how MS fell. I'm talking science.

You used the word, "see." and I made an assumption. I'd love to hear your Scientific analysis of how Max sustained his injuries. Goodness knows, it's anyone's guess.

 

[Betty P]

On p. 2 of Max's autopsy report, it states that EMS workers were only able to restart his circulation after administering two doses of epinepherine. During the 25+ minutes EMS workers performed CPR, it was only after the administration of epinephrine that his heart restarted.

This information should put to rest any speculation about RZ's efforts to administer CPR.

 

[CDS22]

Hmmm. Unconscious from what? We've established that he wasn't suffocated. Dr. Peterson initially entertained the possibility that Max had suffocated, but autopsy results show otherwise. Dr. Peterson's concern was that upon external examination, he couldn't explain the cardiac arrest. Therefore, he postulated; perhaps he was suffocated prior to the fall. He was basing this on the cardiac arrest, not on the spinal contusion, which he could not have been aware of until AFTER the autopsy. So, on what basis do you claim that Dr. Peterson thought Max was unconscious when he fell? Do you have a link or source for Dr. Saying so?



You used the word, "see." and I made an assumption. I'd love to hear your Scientific analysis of how Max sustained his injuries. Goodness knows, it's anyone's guess.

It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

 

[CDS22]

On p. 2 of Max's autopsy report, it states that EMS workers were only able to restart his circulation after administering two doses of epinepherine. During the 25+ minutes EMS workers performed CPR, it was only after the administration of epinephrine that his heart restarted.

This information should put to rest any speculation about RZ's efforts to administer CPR.

Whether she did or did not administer CPR is not as critical a piece of information as what she did prior to MS's injuries, IMO.

 

[jjenny]

It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

I am really curious as to in what physical equation are you using that supports your idea that unconscious body can obtain a higher velocity compared to the body that is not unconscious?

 

[CDS22]

I am really curious as to in what physical equation are you using that supports your idea that unconscious body can obtain a higher velocity compared to the body that is not unconscious?

An unconscious body has a higher velocity if thrown than a conscious body because a conscious body can use arms and legs to break their fall, while an unconscious body cannot. That would explain why MS had no marks on his hands and arms to break his fall. It would also explain the marks on his back, IMO.

 

[jjenny]

An unconscious body has a higher velocity if thrown than a conscious body because a conscious body can use arms and legs to break their fall, while an unconscious body cannot. That would explain why MS had no marks on his hands and arms to break his fall. It would also explain the marks on his back, IMO.

Use arms and legs to break fall? Isn't that in the point of impact? How could that possibly lead to slower velocity during the fall?
I frankly think MS was riding his scooter. He could have been holding onto it, which would explain why he didn't use his arms to break his fall. It would also explain why he attained momentum prior to going over the railing.

 

[CDS22]

Use arms and legs to break fall? Isn't that in the point of impact? How could that possibly lead to slower velocity during the fall?
I frankly think MS was riding his scooter. He could have been holding onto it, which would explain why he didn't use his arms to break his fall. It would also explain why he attained momentum prior to going over the railing.

Constant, quickening motion is needed to speed up a fall. Slowing down a fall by using arms or legs lessens the velocity. That's why an unconscious person would have greater velocity in going over a railing than a conscious person would.

As far as MS riding a scooter goes, he would not have been able to get that scooter over the railing no matter how quickly he was going because a scooter can't leap up into the air and over a railing no matter how quickly you ride it. Remember, LE says he was found on his back with a scooter on his leg.

 

[jjenny]

The scooter could have gone over with him because he was holding it.

 

[CDS22]

The scooter could have gone over with him because he was holding it.

In order for a scooter to go over the railing, it would have to be propelled. What would propel it?

 

[defense101]

Is that the correct link Sunnie?

I did find this interesting from your link:

It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

Diving into the low end of a pool can cause the same injury speed doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it, how you land on your head does. imo

 

[CDS22]

Diving into the low end of a pool can cause the same injury speed doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it, how you land on your head does. imo

Respectfully, the bottom of a pool is a different surface than a carpeted landing.

 

[SunnieRN]

It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

I think we are all allowed to post theories, as long as they are stated as such and not as fact, unless they are backed by links to prove them as fact.

Respectfully, the bottom of a pool is a different surface than a carpeted landing.

A lake or a stream can be much like carpet as there is dirt at the bottom. It does absorb some impact, but not enough unfortunately.