Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

[Nova]

This whole discussion is quite entertaining for me. It's been argued high and low for ages that although Amanda met Rudy at least three times ... they were strangers ... they were not friends ... they would never do drugs together on the night of the murder!!! Now we have Meredith. I only know of two times that she encountered Rudy ... and here it is argued that Meredith and Rudy were such good buddies that she would open her door while she was home along to let him poop in her roommates bathroom.

Unbelievable!

Nobody said MK and RG were "good buddies." Again, you're playing word games.

I've already agreed with you that it is highly improbable that MK invited RG in for a social event. We know MK was tired and planned to study and then rest.

But I don't think admitting a friend of a friend to use the bathroom is such a stretch at any age. And I've lived my adult life in supposedly crime-riddled places like Manhattan and Los Angeles!

 

[otto]

This is all pure speculation on your part, otto. You don't know how well MK thought she knew RG or how close she thought RG was to her boyfriend. You don't know what RG might have told her to gain entrance, but you're always portraying MK as a saint, so surely she would open her door to a friend of a friend who claimed to be ill!

I don't know that any of this happened, but pretending that we can know it did not happen is just that: pretending. If this is the sort of reasoning on which AK and RS were convicted, then we have a gross miscarriage of justice here indeed!

If Meredith and Rudy were buddies, then I think all claims that Amanda and Rudy were not buddies has to stop. How should we have it ... Amanda and Rudy were buddies, or not?

 

[claudicici]

it would,if someone saw him walking into the cottage or if he told someone he was going to the cottage.I don't think he went there to hurt MK ,remember they had a very friendly conversation at the Halloween party? I think he really liked her.AK o n the other hand ,he could not stand.That's another reason why I think it's more likely MK let him in than Amanda who I think was prejudice.
Otto,I don't understand why you keep bringing up that Europeans in your mind are more intelligent than Americans? I think that's incredibly rude and wrong.
As far as the college frame of mind goes I think us Europeans just had years and years of practice with partying before we go to college.American parenting and laws just seem more conservative so the kids go all out when they finally have the legal right to IMO

 

[SMK]

So, even though she had met him twice (that I know of) they were buddies and she would welcome him into the cottage at night, when she was alone, so he could poop in her roommate's toilet. But when it comes to Amanda and Raffaele partying hard with Rudy and things went so wrong Meredith was murdered ... it's not possible because Amanda didn't know Rudy.

Something about this isn't making sense to me.

To me, it makes perfect sense. There is a guy who lives in my condo building, who walks a bulldog. I have seem him a few times, nodded in passing. If he knocked on my door (he obviously would not be asking to use the toilet, but Rudy was a drifter and the guys downstairs had left and locked up)---anyway, I have spoken to him, outside , in the dark, at 10 pm, near my car, as I assume he is not a criminal. To me, Meredith letting Rudy in to be polite is natural as the day is long.

 

[SMK]

it would,if someone saw him walking into the cottage or if he told someone he was going to the cottage.I don't think he went there to hurt MK ,remember they had a very friendly conversation at the Halloween party? I think he really liked her.AK o n the other hand ,he could not stand.That's another reason why I think it's more likely MK let him in than Amanda who I think was prejudice.
Otto,I don't understand why you keep bringing up that Europeans in your mind are more intelligent than Americans? I think that's incredibly rude and wrong.
As far as the college frame of mind goes I think us Europeans just had years and years of practice with partying before we go to college.American parenting and laws just seem more conservative so the kids go all out when they finally have the legal right to IMO

Agreed!!!

 

[Nova]

I have two daughters who graduated high school in Switzerland. Trust me ... they are street smart about living in Europe and don't open the door to someone banging on the door when they were alone. In fact, their level of maturity, after schooling is Europe, compared to NA students their age, was very obvious.

Glad to hear it, otto. Not that I actually believe our daughters always tell us everything they do and don't do, but I don't doubt your basic premise that you have taught your girls to be cautious. Good for you!

 

[otto]

To me, it makes perfect sense. There is a guy who lives in my condo building, who walks a bulldog. I have seem him a few times, nodded in passing. If he knocked on my door (he obviously would not be asking to use the toilet, but Rudy was a drifter and the guys downstairs had left and locked up)---anyway, I have spoken to him, outside , in the dark, at 10 pm, near my car, as I assume he is not a criminal. To me, Meredith letting Rudy in to be polite is natural as the day is long.

Is it polite to let some guy in the house to use someone else's bathroom?

 

[SMK]

If Meredith and Rudy were buddies, then I think all claims that Amanda and Rudy were not buddies has to stop. How should we have it ... Amanda and Rudy were buddies, or not?

OMG---black and white thinking, jeez. They were not buddies, they were acquaintances. MK + RG+ AK all acquainted on a surface, casual level.

 

[otto]

OMG---black and white thinking, jeez. They were not buddies, they were acquaintances. MK + RG+ AK all acquainted on a surface, casual level.

Good. Acquaintances ... friendly enough to invite the guy in when no one else is home, allow him to use someone else's bathroom, and then Meredith went back to her bedroom while Rudy did what he wanted. I think by that argument, it's no stretch to believe that Amanda and Rudy partied hard with drugs on the night of the murder ... afterall, they had done exactly that once before.

 

[Nova]

Otto, you hit the nail right on the head. I am also very confused-why are Amanda's supporters claiming MK led Rudy in all of the sudden? Before they were arguing that broken window surely points to the fact that he climbed in.

It's a discussion forum, jenny. We're discussing possibilities. And there is no "Vulcan mind meld"--not even among those who question the verdicts. Some of us retain suspicions but feel proof beyond reasonable doubt is lacking; others are convinced RG broke in through FR's window and was then surprised on the john by MK's return. As you can see, others think AK and RS may have been accomplices after the fact.

Frankly, no theory really covers all the bases without some quite large leap of faith. I acknowledge there are difficulties in RG's getting in through FR's window. But I also find it preposterous that AK formed an instant murder/rape conspiracy with two guys she barely knew (and who did not know one another) in a language she was still learning.

Likewise I remain unconvinced of two key axioms of the pro-verdict faction: that MK would never have admitted RG, and that RG could not have staged the break-in himself. As I've said, I can envision scenarios where both of these events transpired (which is not to say I can prove they did).

The idea of MK letting RG in through the door bothers me mostly because the Motivation Report so casually dismisses the idea as impossible. And if that's indicative of judge and juror reasoning in this case, then I have doubts about the entire process.

 

[SMK]

I guess it is becoming apparent that the only way to argue Rudy climbed in the window is to accept that some glass would have fallen on the ground ... and the only way to explain the absence of glass on the ground is to suggest that investigators simply didn't bother to investigate the ground below the window? Not sure.

Rudy did walk in through the front door, but it was not Meredith that let him in. That has been attributed to Amanda ... Amanda with the "college atmosphere" attitude who treated her home as a drug pad.

Oh, Bah, Otto---you speak like a green boy, unschooled in baser matters. Amanda did not treat the cottage as a drug pad, she had no need to. :waiting:

 

[SMK]

Good. Acquaintances ... friendly enough to invite the guy in when no one else is home, allow him to use someone else's bathroom, and then Meredith went back to her bedroom while Rudy did what he wanted. I think by that argument, it's no stretch to believe that Amanda and Rudy partied hard with drugs on the night of the murder ... afterall, they had done exactly that once before.

I let the repairman use the bathroom while I go back into the bedroom. It is called "Trust in the Hobbesian Social Contract" :razz::razz::razz:

 

[Nova]

Well if RG staged anything, he must have been a truly horrible stager, considering he left a lot of evidence that led right to his apprehension. One would think that if he had time to stage, he'd try to at least flash the toilet first, and try to clean up his foot prints and hand print, rather than go breaking windows for no apparent reason.

You keep assuming he was trying to erase his presence. But he may have assumed such traces were invisible and impossible to erase.

Instead, he was merely setting up his story of the "nameless intruder" who was, per RG, the real killer.

Again, that was the story he told when arrested: consensual date and sex with MK, MK murdered by nameless intruder while RG was on the toilet. This story is quite consistent with RG staging a break-in.

 

[Nova]

RG left a hand print, foot prints, and DNA on the scene. If he was staging anything, he got to be the worst stager in the world.

Ah, but that was also explained by his story: in which he attempts to comfort MK as she lays dying.

 

[SMK]

It's a discussion forum, jenny. We're discussing possibilities. And there is no "Vulcan mind meld"--not even among those who question the verdicts. Some of us retain suspicions but feel proof beyond reasonable doubt is lacking; others are convinced RG broke in through FR's window and was then surprised on the john by MK's return. As you can see, others think AK and RS may have been accomplices after the fact.

Frankly, no theory really covers all the bases without some quite large leap of faith. I acknowledge there are difficulties in RG's getting in through FR's window. But I also find it preposterous that AK formed an instant murder/rape conspiracy with two guys she barely knew (and who did not know one another) in a language she was still earning.

Likewise I remain unconvinced of two key axioms of the pro-verdict faction: that MK would never have admitted RG, and that RG could not have staged the break-in himself. As I've said, I can envision scenarios where both of these events transpired (which is not to say I can prove they did).

The idea of MK letting RG in through the door bothers me mostly because the Motivation Report so casually dismisses the idea as impossible. And if that's indicative of judge and juror reasoning in this case, then I have doubts about the entire process.

With your usual clarity, you hit the nail right on the head. :woot: If I did not know better, I would think you were gay (you know, the Andrew Sullivan genius of debate)--any way, EXCELLENT

 

[otto]

Amanda has certainly been described as the foolish Amelie even by defense lawyers ... that is not how Meredith has been described. Knox may well think a wide open front door is normal, but I have not read anything to suggest that Meredith was equally foolish. The jury had no reason to believe that Meredith would open the door to Rudy at night when she was home alone ... just so he could use her roommate's bathroom. She was tired, had to study, and had left the company of friends because she was done socializing for the night. I agree with the court and believe that Meredith was sensible enough not to open the door, under those circumstances, because some guy that she'd met through her boyfriend was banging on the door so he could poop. I suspect she would have been freaked out by that.

 

[dgfred]

it would,if someone saw him walking into the cottage or if he told someone he was going to the cottage.I don't think he went there to hurt MK ,remember they had a very friendly conversation at the Halloween party? I think he really liked her.AK o n the other hand ,he could not stand.That's another reason why I think it's more likely MK let him in than Amanda who I think was prejudice.
Otto,I don't understand why you keep bringing up that Europeans in your mind are more intelligent than Americans? I think that's incredibly rude and wrong.
As far as the college frame of mind goes I think us Europeans just had years and years of practice with partying before we go to college.American parenting and laws just seem more conservative so the kids go all out when they finally have the legal right to IMO

Thats not correct about AK and RG. RG 'fancied' AK and told the boys downstairs so. It is also likely AK knew about this infatuation. IMO RG's 'stories' about meeting Meredith are just that... stories to put himself in the best possible light since he knew there was evidence of himself at the cottage. According to all the witnesses presented, Meredith did not meet or talk to RG on Halloween.

There would have been no reason for RG to innocently want to use the bathroom at the cottage with almost everything within 5-10 minutes walking distance. If he did so, he would have had to already have a plan of assaulting Meredith. Plus IMO, what is the probability of Meredith opening the door for a virtual stranger to use the bathroom, then having some kind of relations with them AFTER using they take a dump in the bathroom? What a instant turn off. If that was the 'plan'... it was a crappy one. Pardon the pun.

 

[SMK]

Amanda has certainly been described as the foolish Amelie even by defense lawyers ... that is not how Meredith has been described. Knox may well think a wide open front door is normal, but I have not read anything to suggest that Meredith was equally foolish. The jury had no reason to believe that Meredith would open the door to Rudy at night when she was home alone ... just so he could use her roommate's bathroom. She was tired, had to study, and had left the company of friends because she was done socializing for the night. I agree with the court and believe that Meredith was sensible enough not to open the door, under those circumstances, because some guy that she'd met through her boyfriend was banging on the door so he could poop. I suspect she would have been freaked out by that.

He did not bang. And she assumed he had to pee. :razz::razz::slap:

 

[Nova]

If Meredith and Rudy were buddies, then I think all claims that Amanda and Rudy were not buddies has to stop. How should we have it ... Amanda and Rudy were buddies, or not?

But nobody has claimed that MK and RG were buddies, except YOU!

What I and others have said is what is known: that MK met RG briefly and RG was a friend of MK's boyfriend. How comfortable MK may have felt around RG isn't known and we have no way of asking her.

The fact that she is dead and can't be asked, however, does NOT prove that she mistrusted RG and wouldn't open the door to him. That is a claim of yours than also can never be proved.

 

[dgfred]

I let the repairman use the bathroom while I go back into the bedroom. It is called "Trust in the Hobbesian Social Contract" :razz::razz::razz:

You also have the appointment listed at the business, and other witnesses to his being in your home, plus your own records. Not the same as a random person you had 'seen' a couple of times around town that you let in to take a dump in your flatmate's bathroom while home alone.