Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

[SMK]

I think it's pretty clear where the continued discussion about this is coming from.

Excuse me? :waitasec:

 

[SMK]

Won't that be interesting!

In other words, when hell freezes over......

 

[otto]

In other words, when hell freezes over......

Sorry ... that last comment wasn't directed at anyone ... more of a general comment.

It will be interesting if the appeal concludes that some of the DNA can be excluded from the evidence. That is but a small part of the total evidence, so it's hard to say what will happen. We still have the Supreme Court ruling concluding that Guede did not act alone, and that staged break in is a bit of a problem. IIRC, the jury said that it was some other evidence (not the DNA) that tipped the scales for them to unanimously conclude guilt.

 

[otto]

Check out the poll updates ... did she or didn't she?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129425&page=3&highlight=Kercher

I suppose many people are relieved that none of the convicted parties in the Meredith Kercher murder trial are referred to as inmates ... like in the "Inmate Casey Anthony" (ICA) trial. If she had murdered her roommate in the US, would she be referred to as Inmate Amanda Knox", or is the term "inmate" only used in connection with filicide trials?

In a way, itentifying the guilty party as "Inmate Amanda Knox" (IAK) does help separate her from the victim, Meredith Kercher. Meredith Kercher was a star in a music video. She walks down the stairs and snow flakes are falling. She appears to be a quiet, thoughtful person in the video. She would never be an inmate. If her roommate turned up dead - I don't for a minute believe that she would forget, be mistaken about, or blatantly lie about the events of the previous evening. I highly doubt that she would have lied about stopping her ears while her roommate's boss murdered her roommate in the bedroom down the hall ... after two hours of questioning. I have no reason to believe this other than knowing that normal, innocent people can remember that they were going to work the night before, what time they were going to work, that they ate dinner before going to work, that they remember phone calls cancelling work and they remember where they were when that phone call occurred. Amanda had trouble with all of this.

 

[truecrimejunkie]

I believe that Casey is referred to as ICA (inmate casey) here in order to separate her initials from her mother who we refer to as CA (cindy). It wasnt meant to be derogatory. There were too many initials to keep straight.

 

[SMK]

Sorry ... that last comment wasn't directed at anyone ... more of a general comment.

It will be interesting if the appeal concludes that some of the DNA can be excluded from the evidence. That is but a small part of the total evidence, so it's hard to say what will happen. We still have the Supreme Court ruling concluding that Guede did not act alone, and that staged break in is a bit of a problem. IIRC, the jury said that it was some other evidence (not the DNA) that tipped the scales for them to unanimously conclude guilt.

This jury may come to different conclusions, though. Did the Supreme Court rule that the break-in had been staged? I believe this appeals court could still conclude that Guede may have acted alone, no?

 

[SMK]

@Otto: Just a bit of levity here, but I thought you of all people would appreciate this satirical piece, especially the paragraphs about the Vatican scheming against Knox and the Italians incapable of understanding DNA. It is a spoof, but one you may find funny: It is about Knox being swapped by the US State Dept.:


“This is a win-win-win – this is a lot of wins,” said State Department spokesperson Brookling Witherspoon. “Based on the unimpeachable testimony given by Amanda’s parents and other supporters on multiple episodes of the Today Show, we know that her conviction was a gross miscarriage of justice perpetrated by a failed state relying on Inquisition-like tactics that one might expect from a medieval court, not a so-called democracy in the 21st century.”

“I wouldn’t be surprised if the Vatican were behind this show trial, using it as a way to punish this brave young woman’s confident sexuality,” he continued.

When asked about DNA evidence linking Knox to a knife consistent with stab wounds suffered by the victim, Witherspoon replied, “Do you really think the Italians are smart enough to understand DNA technology? We’re talking about a third-world theocracy that has willfully and repeatedly ignored the real evidence – you know – the real evidence presented on the Today Show.
http://wineandexcrement.com/u-s-to-swap-%E2%80%9Csnooki%E2%80%9D-for-jailed-expat-amanda-knox/3121/

 

[otto]

Thank you. It always appeared derogatory (to me) to identify a suspect facing trial as "inmate". So you're suggesting that Inmate Amanda Knox, who is actually an inmate, should not be identified by her inmate status? On the upside, it does help distinguish the victim from one of the convicted murderer ... even if her name doesn't rhyme with her mother's name. IAK isn't like EM or even EK.

 

[SMK]

Thank you. It always appeared derogatory (to me) to identify a suspect facing trial as "inmate". So you're suggesting that Inmate Amanda Knox, who is actually an inmate, should not be identified by her inmate status? On the upside, it does help distinguish the victim from one of the convicted murderer ... even if her name doesn't rhyme with her mother's name. IAK isn't like EM or even EK.

Otto, on the news they often begin with, "Today convicted killer Amanda Knox was back in court...".

 

[otto]

This jury may come to different conclusions, though. Did the Supreme Court rule that the break-in had been staged? I believe this appeals court could still conclude that Guede may have acted alone, no?

I don't think that the appeal involves a jury? Isn't the appeal nothing more than procedure with a new and very fair judge? Edda said, before the verdict, that the real trial was in the appeal ... I think she was wrong.

The Supreme Court ruled that Guede did not act alone. I doubt they will reverse that decision. As to whether the break in was staged, there has been no succesful argument that it was not staged, and everything about it looks staged. In fact, Rudy Guede, who had a previous break in, climbed over the balcony and entered through the french doors. If Rudy was going to break in to the cottage, it seems likely that he would break in using the method that worked before - up onto the balcony and in through the French doors. Apparently - the argeument from the defense of Konx and Sollecito, is that Guede broke the window 20' above the ground because he's a spiderman basketball wall scaling guy ... and then even though he was a burglar, he decided to not steal anything ... and committed murder instead.

 

[SMK]

I don't think that the appeal involves a jury? Isn't the appeal nothing more than procedure with a new and very fair judge? Edda said, before the verdict, that the real trial was in the appeal ... I think she was wrong.

The Supreme Court ruled that Guede did not act alone. I doubt they will reverse that decision. As to whether the break in was staged, there has been no succesful argument that it was not staged, and everything about it looks staged. In fact, Rudy Guede, who had a previous break in, climbed over the balcony and entered through the french doors. If Rudy was going to break in to the cottage, it seems likely that he would break in using the method that worked before - up onto the balcony and in through the French doors. Apparently - the argeument from the defense of Konx and Sollecito, is that Guede broke the window 20' above the ground because he's a spiderman basketball wall scaling guy ... and then even though he was a burglar, he decided to not steal anything ... and committed murder instead.

I will have to find the links, but I am nearly positive I read that the appeal includes a new jury. If only I could find the link.... Hope I am not wrong......

 

[otto]

Otto, on the news they often begin with, "Today convicted killer Amanda Knox was back in court...".

Perhaps they (reporters?) should use commonly known language like "inmate". That seems to be the label that people are graviatating towards for suspects before they have been tried or convicted ... in the US. After they have been convicted, even women from Seattle should adjust to their 26 degree sentences. It's better than death or life in prison that she would see for the same crime in her home town ... good thing she was in that backwards medieval place.

 

[otto]

I will have to find the links, but I am nearly positive I read that the appeal includes a new jury. If only I could find the link.... Hope I am not wrong......

Don't worry about a link. I don't know the overall trial process, with it's automatic appeals and reduced sentences. We'll see, in good time, whether Hellman (sp?) has a jury or not. I'm under the impression that he will rule in the fall ... not a jury.

 

[truecrimejunkie]

Thank you. It always appeared derogatory (to me) to identify a suspect facing trial as "inmate". So you're suggesting that Inmate Amanda Knox, who is actually an inmate, should not be identified by her inmate status? On the upside, it does help distinguish the victim from one of the convicted murderer ... even if her name doesn't rhyme with her mother's name. IAK isn't like EM or even EK.

I was just trying to explain where I believed the ICA term was coined. I have been following the Caylee story since it began in 2008. Things were confusing in the beginning because of the 3 people involved with CA inititals. Later someone used ICA and it stuck probably due to the huge amt of contempt for her on this forum. Ive never heard her referred to that outside of this forum. Usually on the news she is referred to as "Fl mom accused of killing her daughter... or "Young mom on trial for the murder... or the oh so annoying "tot mom" from Nancy Grace. I dont have a problem with you referring to AK as IAK.

 

[Monzoo]

I don't think that the appeal involves a jury? Isn't the appeal nothing more than procedure with a new and very fair judge? Edda said, before the verdict, that the real trial was in the appeal ... I think she was wrong.

Otto,

It is my understanding that there is a jury in this trial as well. Helmann is the leading judge, in the same way that Massei was the leading judge in the first trial.

I believe I have read the name of the second judge (not to be confused with the panel of "lay judges" ) -- I looked briefly to see if I can find more substantial information. The only thing I have found so far is the following from Perugia Shock:

After one and a half hours of council chamber, the jury came out with the answers to all requests written in an ordinance. Judge Pratillo Hellmann started announcing the decisions.

 

[SkewedView]

You know, the primary reason that I was exploring the history and procedures of the Italian Justice System is because people are interpreting things as if this were happening in the US System. The Italian System is unique, a strange blending of contradictory theories of Justice that exists nowhere else, and so it is imperative to understand it before making definitive statements about it (this is directed at both Guilters and Pro-Knoxers, both parties seem to be confused about things.)

Before I go into this, please note that I'm placing reference links at the bottom of this post. And yes, I'm aware that I've mentioned some of this in previous posts, but it seems that at least some of them were missed by many, so I'm including them here.

First off - in Italy, you are not convicted until your appeals run out. Period. This applies to Knox, Raf, and Mignini. This is why Mignini is free to go about his business until his appeals are through. The same would be true of AK and RS, except that murderer suspects are usually imprisoned as an understandable precaution. There is a good reason for this - fair trials can be hard to come by at the local level in Italy, and so the appeals system allows for as full of a review as needed in the first appeal to correct for this flaw. So no, the AK/RS appeal that is ongoing is not at all like a US or UK appeal, where only procedural matters are looked at.

I should note that I really like the setup of the Italian Appeals Process, and I really wish the US would adopt some of its features in the interests of Justice.

Second - the Supreme Court decision regarding RG acting alone was made during his fast track trial. This type of trial, contrary to some people's statements, is not at all like asking for a speedy trial in the US. Instead, it allows the court to look only at the evidence gathered by LE and the prosecution in the course of the regular investigation. Essentially, it is a way to get a reduced sentence by admitting that the prosecution has enough evidence to convict, without pleading guilty.

This matters, because it means that the Supreme Court made its ruling with limited information, and no arguments to the contrary, as it was in RG's best interests to go along with the prosecution's theory. In short, the ruling is useless as a resort to authority, especially since information from another person's trial is inadmissable anyway, whether you are in the US, UK, or Italy.

Third - Italy really does have a third world Justice System - it has been on the EU Human Rights Court watch list for years, and has been given numerous warnings, including for misogyny in their rulings, as exemplified by the infamous "girls in tight pants can't be rape victims" case.

The EU Human Rights Court has also had issues with Italy detaining people in prison without access to lawyers for great lengths of time before charging them with any crimes, a tactic Iran is familiar with, and that the developed nations (when not overseen by Bush/Chenney) find deplorable.

Another significant warning is about their libel/slander/defamation laws, as Italy is the only developed nation to still criminalize them. All other developed nations only allow for civil trials. There is good reason for this, as corrupt governments use such laws to jail their critics, and it should be noted that the majority of such charges in Italy are leveled by members of the government in that exact manner.

See here:
www.heuni.fi/uploads/jrrqu.doc
for a detailed review of the Italian Justice System, particularly in the context of its history.

For details on the "Tight Jeans" ruling, and how the Italian Supreme Court has since overturned its own rulings, thus showing that the system can learn and disregard rulings made from false assumptions, see here:
http://www.cjel.net/online/16_1-faedi/

One of the references to the problems with the criminalization of defamation etc is here:
http://www.freemedia.at/europe/singleview/5561/

When I have time I'll try to find the links to other references on the Italian Justice System, and will continue with my analysis.

 

[SkewedView]

While I have a moment, I'm going to make note of something else: the idea that RG could not have murdered MK on his own is based on a false assumption - that martial arts and self defense training would have helped her. To the contrary, such training is literally worse than useless in close quarters against a knife wielding assailant. This especially goes for martial arts training, which focuses on tournament style matches and controlled scenarios. Self-defense courses by necessity have similar limitations on the scenarios that they can prepare you for. Plain and simple, in close quarters against a larger, stronger opponent with a knife, there is not a whole lot you can do to defend yourself other than to flee or to try to find something to arm yourself with.

I really don't understand how people can find this ruling sensible, as there are numerous cases where a man with a knife killed multiple people at one go, some the same size or larger, let alone one faced up against a single unarmed woman.:banghead:

 

[SkewedView]

Regarding 'Thrill Kills':

First, for the case that Otto was originally referring to see here:
MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #15 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Elizabeth Olten was a 9 year old girl who was killed by the teenage Alyssa Bustamante because she 'wanted to know what it would feel like."

Resemblance to AK: Alyssa is creative and pretty. The murder involved a knife (as well as strangling and blunt force).

Divergences from AK: Alyssa had a long, troubled history with an unstable family situation and was diagnosed well before the murder with multiple mental health issues. She was a cutter. She was into death imagery and related materials. She gave numerous indications that she was a ticking time bomb. The murder was planned out well ahead of time; preparations included digging a grave. Alyssa acted entirely on her own. There are no other suspects in the murder.

In short, there is nothing but the most superficial of resemblances between AK and AB. In particular, AB did not commit her horrid act out of nowhere, there were tons of warning signs well ahead of time, as is the case in the vast majority of the 'thrill kill' cases. AK has never shown any warning signs, despite the efforts of the media and certain blogs to twist words and pictures into something that those not experienced with mental health might take as signs of such issues.




Regarding female killers - the vast, vast majority kill family members or out of romantic jealousy. A small percentage do so at the behest of a man that they are submissive to, and a percentage somewhere in-between kill for money ('angels of death', or medical killers, are usually in this category). Girls into 'thrill killing' that aren't acting in concert with a much larger group are incredibly rare, and always seem to involve deeply troubled girls from broken/abusive homes.

For a good look at many female killers, go here:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/index.html
Please take a good look at them, there are a few I haven't gotten to yet, so there may be one that matches AK's alleged circumstances. So far, however, I haven't seen any matches whatsoever.

 

[SMK]

Divergences from AK: Alyssa had a long, troubled history with an unstable family situation and was diagnosed well before the murder with multiple mental health issues. She was a cutter. She was into death imagery and related materials. She gave numerous indications that she was a ticking time bomb. The murder was planned out well ahead of time; preparations included digging a grave. Alyssa acted entirely on her own. There are no other suspects in the murder.

Yes, I recall this case. In addition, Alyssa had been on certain medications - antidepressant in a group of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) - which are known to make certain teens suicidal, manic, psychotic, and prone to acting out . This aspect made me very angry at the pharmaceutical companies. Assuming Knox and Sollectio only smoked pot as they claimed, pot is not similar to SSRIs in inducing psychotic mania.

 

[SMK]

@ OTTO: Here is where I had read the info on Knox's appeal having a new panel, Judge, and JURY:

TIME Magazine: Amanda Knox's Appeal: A Friendlier Venue This Time?

But while the arguments are not expected to be new, they will be falling on a different set of ears. The presiding judge, Claudio Patillo Hellmann, has a reputation for overturning convictions, and the five women and one man who make up the new jury are required by law to have a higher minimum standard of education than those who sat on the original trial, which could make a difference when it comes to evaluating contentious DNA evidence.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2036395,00.html#ixzz1OEusqile