Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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  • #781
Okay, but the problems you have about the case, valid as they might be, have been addressed or was attempted to be addressed by the defense, but the judge either didn't allow their experts, didn't allow them to do further tests, or ruled out of their favor on the thing in question.

1. Computer alibi. AK supposedly was checking her emails that night. Her computer was fried. I do nt know if there was another way to corroberate that she checked them besides the computer. 75% of the computers were fried, including MK's, which, if she'd used it at home, COULD have proved a later TOD. RS wanted his computer reviewed by the manfacturers to see if data could be retrieved, but the court denied that. They have since found other indications on his mac that he was using it that night. My theory is that he used one computer to research stuff and other other computer for the movies and the music. The one with less activity "happened" to have survived. Go figure. (just my hunch.)

2. mixed DNA. AK hardly was at home that week because she'd just met RS. We see that RS had little to no dna in that house, save for a cigarette bud. AK's DNA was in the bathroom, mostlylikely because she'd just showered in there. I'm assuming if she'd just stayed stinky, then that DNA wouldn't have been there, mixed with anything of MK's. I find it strange that RG's dna isn't in the bathroom, however, I'll use the guilter's excuse of why AK's isn't in the murder room--the detectives didn't swab the whole bathroom, and then they performed that test to turn it all pink. Didn't they say somewhere in the case they decided to use a blood test over a dna test in some places and once they did the first test, they hadn't enough material to do the second one? I want to say that had to do with the footprints, but maybe that also happened in the bathroom in some places. Just guessing, but it could be a reason RG's isn't in there. If the jury accepts AK as the lead murderer without her DNA in the murder room, then I can accept RG was in the bathroom without his DNA being in there.

3. Again, the Defense had experts to prove it was a real break-in. The judge disallowed the testimony because the expert was a ballistics expert. Ballistic deals with bullets, not rocks, says the judge with rocks for brains.

4. Multiple attackers? Then I'd ask the court to explain the extra 3 sets of DNA on the bra clasp but we now know it's contaminated. I'd then ask them to tell me about the other 19 unidentified DNA profiles in the house. Then maybe we'd have an answer about multiple attackers.

5. Lies. What lies besides RS dreaming up that he pricked MK and AK dreaming up the PL thing?

So that's how I see it. I believe the defense was NOT allowed to put on a case during the frist trial, and that's why evidence seems daming. In this appeal, they seem to be getting that chance. You said yourself that the MOT report was narrowminded in theory and cherry-picked, and while in court, that judge's view was also brought to the evidence that you question.

It really is stunning when you list all the evidence that was denied to the defense. And you didn't even list the possible semen stain on MK's pillow!

AK and RS should be freed simply because they were denied a fair trial. But the almost complete lack of evidence also argues strongly that they are factually innocent.
 
  • #782
We shall see.
Best post I could find in the last gazillion pages...lol... Just kidding of course ;) Funny to see how some posters are surprised by the outcome of the reviews. I posted months ago that Curatolo's testimony was weak, that the knife could be excluded for technical reasons and that the bra clasp findings would be confirmed. It seems to be going this way and some people are suddenly surprised. Of course, the review is critical. You want to show the Surpreme Court that the convictions are based on solid evidence. And there is so much more of that which is not even part of the appeals.
 
  • #783
Best post I could find in the last gazillion pages...lol... Just kidding of course ;) Funny to see how some posters are surprised by the outcome of the reviews. I posted months ago that Curatolo's testimony was weak, that the knife could be excluded for technical reasons and that the bra clasp findings would be confirmed. It seems to be going this way and some people are suddenly surprised. Of course, the review is critical. You want to show the Surpreme Court that the convictions are based on solid evidence. And there is so much more of that which is not even part of the appeals.
I don't think you are kidding at all.
 
  • #784
Well, I do not think the bra clasp is exactly being confirmed here. As for the rest, it is strongly worded, enough to take notice of and to take stock:

Experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti, of Sapienza University in Rome, said in their report that the genetic profile attributed to Ms Kercher is "unreliable" and cannot be attributed with certainty. They said results may have been contaminated on both the blade and bra clasp.

Referring specifically to samples from the blade they said: "We believe that the technical tests are not reliable." They added: "It cannot be ruled out that the result obtained... may stem from contamination." Tests, they said, fell below internationally accepted standards.

In the 145-page report, which they will present in court on 25 July, they were also critical of the treatment of the sample from the bra strap: "The exhibit was retrieved 46 days after the crime, in a context that was highly suggestive of ambient contamination."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dna-evidence-in-knox-conviction-was-unreliable-2304662.html
 
  • #785
IIRC AK moved in first and had her choice of the room she took or the room later taken by MK. The rent amount was what she originally agreed to pay. AFAIK, other than MK wishing AK were neater in the bathroom, there was no conflict over the rooms. I don't think there's any motive for murder here.

IMO there is none, I was just pointing out the one I described was more likely (more logical) than the one the guilters glommed onto as their reasoning. The fact AK allowed MK to pick the room of her choice (my recollection as well) doesn't demonstrate a selfish person only concerned with her own desires. Which is why I believe other much more ridiculous motivations were promoted, because they reinforced the AK as "other" (outside "our" tribe behavior) narrative much more readily.

MK has to be a beautiful brilliant studious chaste angel that was a million times the woman that AK ever hoped to be. While AK has to be portrayed as a homely dull lazy 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 demon that had to take from this world what she could never be herself. Which is believable, only if you disregard everything known about both woman to fit some preconceived morality play.

I have seen the same sort of extremism by some of the fringe of the FOA supporters as well. I remember reading some insane praise about Amanda's statement when the appeals process began, about how it was the most magnificent piece of writing for someone of such young age the writer had ever seen. Apparently, AK is the new Stephen Crane or Anne Frank of the falsely convicted. I don't share that assessment.

I don't really like the demonizing of RG, Massei, and Mignini either, which I have probably contributed. They are all flawed individuals (as we all are) that have made mistakes (some momentous) that I hope I have pointed out by attacking their flaws and not them as individuals.
 
  • #786
I had to post this exchange I came across...

My whole personal belief is that Knox did kill her daughter. From what I've seen on the news, she has no emotion, I know that if I were going on trial for killing a child I would be in scared out of my mind. You don't even see fear in her eyes, her face, in her anything. I hope they find her guilty and give the death penalty. If you kill a child, you know exactly what you are doing. That's one of the most hanous crimes anyone could do. If you kill someone else's child you deserve to die. If you kill your own child...... No words can express the discust I have. There's a very special place in hell for people like her.

I agree, and the fact that Knox did not report her baby missing for a month does not bode well.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=196814&page=353
 
  • #787
  • #788
why are they calling Casey Anthony, "Knox"? :eek:

I have to think it is satire, to contemplate it as an honest post is too frightening. However, one of the posters thinks the LED post is not satire due to other absurd posts by LED. I am still clinging to LED's whole schtick is a parody of an extreme internet ignoramus.

Last response from that thread...

I'm surprised the MODERATORS on this thread even let your opinion slip in..........usually what happened to Amanda's baby is regarded as a taboo topic. If I recall correctly, on the rare occasions this topic is discussed here, our resident innocentisti insist that it was never proved that Amanda had a baby, or ---if she did---some animal-or other stole the baby. Even a kangaroo has been mentioned. Though there are no wild kangaroos, worth mentioning, in Italy!

Expect my comment now to go POOOF!:
 
  • #789
I have to think it is satire, to contemplate it as an honest post is too frightening. However, one of the posters thinks the LED post is not satire due to other absurd posts by LED. I am still clinging to LED's whole schtick is a parody of an extreme internet ignoramus.

Last response from that thread...
ah, i am slow on the uptake. get it now .....:floorlaugh:
 
  • #790
Best post I could find in the last gazillion pages...lol... Just kidding of course ;) Funny to see how some posters are surprised by the outcome of the reviews. I posted months ago that Curatolo's testimony was weak, that the knife could be excluded for technical reasons and that the bra clasp findings would be confirmed. It seems to be going this way and some people are suddenly surprised. Of course, the review is critical. You want to show the Surpreme Court that the convictions are based on solid evidence. And there is so much more of that which is not even part of the appeals.

I agree... not with the 'best post' stuff, but with your comments :crazy: . Not really any surprises because we already knew of the LCN on the knife that was used and could not be re-tested, contamination can NEVER be ruled out (but has to be proven in court), and RS's dna was on the bra clasp. So the only big problem I see is with notations... if they were claimed to have been done, but were not.
The court may 'throw out' both the knife and bra-clasp, but there is plenty more evidence against them, or the court may give more weight to certain explanations/analysis of the knife and clasp. It seems to me the report is a scientific/academic explanation in a 'perfect setting', where as Dr S's explanations are of a more practical/everyday-work nature of a busy forensics lab. But that is just my feelings and I will duck the expected in-coming post-missles and snark-rockets.
 
  • #791
The New York Times has a piece today:

ROME — Italian Experts Question Evidence in Knox Case

A report by forensic experts filed with an appeals court on Wednesday casts doubt on the DNA evidence used to convict Amanda Knox and her Italian ex-boyfriend for the 2007 murder of a British student. Lawyers for the defendants said the development significantly improved their chances of winning their appeal.

In a 145-page report filed to a tribunal in Perugia — and immediately leaked to the news media — two court-appointed independent experts said that the collection and testing of DNA traces in key exhibits were below international standards and that the evidence might have been contaminated.

Defense lawyers on Wednesday said the report was further proof of their client’s innocence.

“Two key pieces of evidence have been destroyed,” said Carlo Della Vedova, one of Ms. Knox’s lawyers, who said that prosecutors would now be hard pressed to put his client and Mr. Sollecito, 26, in the bedroom. The report, he said, shows that “Raffaele was never in the room and that the knife is not the murder knife,” thus undermining the prosecution’s case.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/world/europe/30knox.html
 
  • #792
I agree... not with the 'best post' stuff, but with your comments :crazy: . Not really any surprises because we already knew of the LCN on the knife that was used and could not be re-tested, contamination can NEVER be ruled out (but has to be proven in court), and RS's dna was on the bra clasp. So the only big problem I see is with notations... if they were claimed to have been done, but were not.
The court may 'throw out' both the knife and bra-clasp, but there is plenty more evidence against them, or the court may give more weight to certain explanations/analysis of the knife and clasp. It seems to me the report is a scientific/academic explanation in a 'perfect setting', where as Dr S's explanations are of a more practical/everyday-work nature of a busy forensics lab. But that is just my feelings and I will duck the expected in-coming post-missles and snark-rockets.
I am no longer expecting things to go well nor smoothly :razz:
 
  • #793
I am no longer expecting things to go well nor smoothly :razz:

'well' for who?
and
'smoothly' in what way?
 
  • #794
But others played down the report’s findings.

The lawyer for the Kercher family, Francesco Maresca, countered that the word of the independent experts would not be the last word, and said he would raise his objections during the last week in July, when the report will be formally discussed during a week of hearings.

He said that the scientific police and the consultants who carried out the original tests had far more experience than the independent experts appointed by the court. “I was surprised that these experts were so certain, and gave such strong, drastic opinions, given that they don’t have the same number of years of experience under their belt,” Mr. Maresca said.

Other accusers of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito said that the DNA was just one piece of evidence in the case that they built against them, based on various testimonies, their lack of an alibi and what prosecutors say is other damaging physical evidence, which has not been reviewed. During one interrogation, Ms. Knox allowed that she was in the house when Ms. Kercher was murdered, an admission she later retracted, saying she had spoken under duress.

“The first jury decided looking at a wide range of evidence, the DNA was only part of it,” said one prosecutor, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the case. “Everything else still stands.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/30/world/europe/30knox.html?_r=1:razz::razz::razz:
 
  • #795
I agree... not with the 'best post' stuff, but with your comments :crazy: . Not really any surprises because we already knew of the LCN on the knife that was used and could not be re-tested, contamination can NEVER be ruled out (but has to be proven in court), and RS's dna was on the bra clasp. So the only big problem I see is with notations... if they were claimed to have been done, but were not.
The court may 'throw out' both the knife and bra-clasp, but there is plenty more evidence against them, or the court may give more weight to certain explanations/analysis of the knife and clasp. It seems to me the report is a scientific/academic explanation in a 'perfect setting', where as Dr S's explanations are of a more practical/everyday-work nature of a busy forensics lab. But that is just my feelings and I will duck the expected in-coming post-missles and snark-rockets.


I think that's exactly the point. Dr S's explanations were that we don't live ina perfect world, but that she still committed a perfect test. The refutations from this independent panel is that no one ever runs perfect tests, especially on small sample sizes, and so once she decided she was going to run such a test, it necessitated stringent standards (the first and second step of which is cleaning the machines and doing a control test to make sure the machines are actually clean). The labs that do such tests follow these standards because contamination is always a very real, very high threat, and therefore they need far more controls.

The implication therefore is that she was not working in an objective manner. She should have said "I run a busy lab and I do everything objectively, and so I did not test the knife because it was outside what we could reasonably perform in our lab."

You could say the logic went like this "I was told that this was the murder knife. We needed to ascertain if it was Meredith's DNA on the tip of the knife. I went to heroic measures to ascertain if it was, and in fact it was." But that shows a clear lack of objectivity. The lab is supposed to be after the truth only. And part of that truth is recognizing the limitations of your lab.

Edited to add: The experts are saying there is always the threat of contamination in a DNA lab, which is why they require certifications so they can confirm you clean the machines and do control tests so you know when that (inevitable) contamination occurs, and your results aren't therefore tainted.
 
  • #796
Well IMO, and the un-named prosecutor commenting in the article it seems... believe there is much more evidence of guilt 'still standing' even if both the knife and clasp are 'thrown out'. If they will be thrown out, or if their 'weight' value will be diminished, or even seen as reasonable to the court is yet to be decided.
 
  • #797
Well IMO, and the un-named prosecutor commenting in the article it seems... believe there is much more evidence of guilt 'still standing' even if both the knife and clasp are 'thrown out'. If they will be thrown out, or if their 'weight' value will be diminished, or even seen as reasonable to the court is yet to be decided.
Just must wait for July 25, and then August review and then deliberate to verdict Sept./early Oct. What will be will be. Doesn't matter who wins , so long as it is the truth.
 
  • #798
This snippet is a reflection of what I myself had noticed :

I'm detecting a subtle but significant shift in the thinking amongst some pro-guilt commentators. It would appear that the full impact of the DNA report might now be just beginning to sink in. And the emphasis is consequently shifting from "mountains of evidence" and "they will rot in jail" to one of "well, they might get acquitted on a technicality, but everyone will always know that they are nasty little sex killers nonetheless".

In other words, there appears to be a certain amount of pre-emptive rationalisation taking place in preparation for the prospect of acquittals.
orums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=196814&page=354
 
  • #799
Regarding the bra clasp:

Within the 145 pp report, they referenced a study regarding household dust and "traveling DNA" :

Toothman, Kester , and Champagne's 2008 study, "Human DNA and Environmental Factors" , is thus sited, which makes clear that the bra clasp sitting for 46 days is indeed significant.

Despite claims that "dna does not fly" it has been found that it can in fact fly via household dust: http://pubget.com/paper/18420364

The artifact was recovered 46 days after the crime, in an environment highly suggestive of contamination . The risk of incorrectly interpreting environmental contaminants such dust could be minimized only by having the foresight to establish very strict control procedures, including analysis of extracts from sterile cotton swabs soaked in sterile buffer passed to pick up on environmental surfaces dust samples, a procedure that has not been implemented;
 
  • #800
I agree. Don't count your chickens before they've hatched and all that.

Reading about all of this has made me realize how important it is to have a lawyer who has technical knowledge. i.e. how many lawyers would know to ask if the machines had been thoroughly cleaned before the evidence was tested, and if there was a control sample done to make sure that there was no contamination on the machine.

In my opinion that knife should never have been introduced.

That being said, and as another poster stated, the vast majority of people with false confessions go to jail because people perceive them as guilty.

It's a good thing, then, that Knox an Sollecito didn't confess to murdering Meredith!
 
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