Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[wasnt_me]

I appreciate your fairness in discounting the histories of the defendants. I think RG's background is far more serious than AK's or RS', but you are certainly right there's nothing in his known history that screams rapist or murderer.

But in leaping to the "group dynamic" as an alternative explanation, you point out the problem with the pro-guilty stance. There is more evidence of RG's criminal background than there is of a criminal "group dynamic" between AK, RS and RG. There is simply no evidence the three ever met as a group, much less formed a psychological bond so dysfunctional it ended in murder. And there isn't enough time for them to have done so on the night of the murder.

You might as well blame satanism, as Mignini has already tried.

This is very true. According to what we've been told:

1. RS and RG had never met.
2. AK and RG were "hi, bye" acquaintances, as described by RG, and AK only recalls seeing him once or twice.
3. RS was a virgin. Despite magna, etc, he had only had sex for the first time a week prior to the murder. A good example is that fact that we ALL are entralled by discussing murder cases. If someone came up dead and we knew them, who should assume, based on the fact that we come to this thread everyday to discuss this murder, that we had anything to do with the person who died down the street?
4. If the group was intent about a "sex game gone wrong," it is my belief that we would have seen more than a questionable rape, sexual assault at minimum on MK. I think it's very odd that three people intent upon doing this to her in a frenzy would all three decide at once that enough was enough and they weren't going through with it.
5. The idea that RS and AK would break their pattern of what they'd been doing for a week is also highly unlikely. It's been stated that they spent every night together since they'd met, and they'd spent those nights at RS's house. AK would return home to shower each morning. RF said that, so why would this night of Nov 1st be any different? This also sets up the case for why AK's prints and RS's prints might not have been prevailent in the cottage. They weren't there that much, except to make lunch in the afternoons, so I've read.
6. It is also said that AK went out alone on Halloween, hung out with people at her job and met up with RS later. She probably did want to hang out with MK, but I'm conjecting that the more MK revealed about Ak's oddities, her snobby british friends (my opinion of them) started looking sour and detering MK from having AK around. MK might have started to feel the same way. From what I've read about AK, she doesn't really understand when people don't like her, and she doesn't understand when to NOT like other people. It's possible she was oblivious to MK's changing feelings. Anyways, so my point is, if she knew RG, why not go hang out with him on Halloween?
7. RG seemed to not have sought AK or RS out on Halloween, either. For people who like to party, it was a partying night. So why weren't these three "buddies" together?

What is so different about RS and AK that they are not given the same benefit of the doubt that RG is now enjoying in the discussions?

 

[wasnt_me]

AK explained most of the dynamics already in her confession. We were drunk, we just wanted some fun, she didn't want to join us, and he (RG) went after her. And so it all started.

I don't recall this as being in AK's statement, which was not a confession. Anyone else recall her saying this? Is there a cite for this?

 

[otto]

I don't recall this as being in AK's statement, which was not a confession. Anyone else recall her saying this? Is there a cite for this?

Link posted upthread by Sherlock: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568773/Students-sex-party-that-ended-in-murder.html

 

[wasnt_me]

The pattern notwithstanding, I always felt Rudy said that the window was not smashed to keep with his idea of going over for a consensual time with MK, and to make it look like he was not involved with anything untoward. I see what you mean about his pattern which contains truth, so he may have come in the front door, but he is also a self-serving liar, so hard to tell...:waitasec:

It has also been said that he told the nursey school owner that someone told him for 50 euros, he could board there. This cannot possibly be true, as if he had been told that, he would have immediately left upon finding the place vacant, not have broken in and made himself at home.

He would also tell people that he was south African and American. How he got away with that, I do not know.

That being said, i do believe that there are some truths in his lies. Like I believe him about what time he said he got there, and what time he said he left which is all consistent with the evidence of what time MK got home, the TOD and the strange phone activity on MK's phone.

 

[SMK]

If you disagree, please tell what about Knox makes her an interesting person?

I think she is young, beautiful, and intelligent. She came from a good family, divorce being so commonplace in the US now, that the term "broken home" cannot be applied. She worked hard, and studied hard, by all accounts. Now, she is a convicted sex killer, crying for an appeal, as an innocenti. To some, interesting.

 

[SMK]

For those of us who believe in Jung's theory of synchronicity, I find it interesting that Rudy entered the law office from the Via Del Lupo, the street of the Wolf, as in Lone Wolf....:snooty:

 

[SMK]

Blog review of Nina's text:

The Fatal Gift of Beauty: The Trials of Amanda Knox by Nina Burleigh
I started this book thinking it was be much more of a straight-forward, data-fueled read, but was surprised when it went much more in-depth than that. It looked at the culture and the people involved, more than just a presentation of the evidence.

I was completely engrossed in the book, sometimes rereading parts several times over so I could be sure I had the right image in my head. There was mention of Amanda’s life in Seattle and what her friends thought of her personality and character. The book looked at the differences in behavior between Italy and the US and how those differences affected how people viewed Amanda.

The book does lean towards Amanda’s innocence, but Burleigh does not allow that bias to get in the way of the presentation of the facts, only in how she then applies the facts looks at the difference theories. She did amazing research for this book, and it is a compelling, sometimes disturbing look at the Amanda Knox trial.

http://52w52b.wordpress.com/2011/08...y-the-trials-of-amanda-knox-by-nina-burleigh/

 

[wasnt_me]

Well, I hate to keep quoting Burleigh's text, but in the Chapter entitled, "Mignini", (Chapter 11) it delves into his insistence that some kind of Masonic initiation had taken place, with the one shoe off, and Amanda touching her forehead.

He is quoted as saying he believes they meant for it to occur in Halloween, but were forced to wait a night as MK was out. The Satanism and witchcraft theory is attributed to Mignini, (Chapter 11) with Comodi telling him to withdraw it, which he did reluctantly.

Times online UK may be credible, but i think Burleigh is moreso.

ETA: I think this theory of Mignini's may actually be brought up in the "Questura" Chapter 11 and another. I skipped around but do know I was impressed with reading how M. kept questioning about Hallowtide and that night of the dead, and about witchcraft and Masonic and Satanic ritualism.

He had the same theory in the Monster of Florence. Is that not true?

 

[otto]

I think she is young, beautiful, and intelligent. She came from a good family, divorce being so commonplace in the US now, that the term "broken home" cannot be applied. She worked hard, and studied hard, by all accounts. Now, she is a convicted sex killer, crying for an appeal, as an innocenti. To some, interesting.

I see an average 24 or 25 year old female from Seattle that has no claim to fame other than being a foxy knoxy on the soccer field. Her writing is horrible in quality, style and content yet she believed herself to be some sort of writer.

She is from a broken home and the term still applies whether it's common or not. She went to Europe, thinking it was her playground.

Her uncle in Germany went to great lengths to secure her a position and apartment so she could work at the Bundesrepublik - an opportunity that many would jump at. Knox took the free apartment that came with the job and blew off the job ... claiming that she had the flu a week earlier so she couldn't work. She then partied in the park for two weeks. When she was caught by her uncle, she admittedly showed some tears to get out of trouble and then wrote "ciao sucker" about it on her social media page. She was living the Looking for Mr Goodbar life in Europe, and enjoying the relaxed drug laws. There is nothing intelligent about how she carried on in Europe.

By all accounts, she was prompt and able to tell time when attending classes in Perugia, a one semester study abroad program. Yet on the night of the murder, she was suddenly incapable of telling time ... nothing intelligent about that, and there's nothing inteligent about lying to the Carabinieri.

 

[SMK]

He had the same theory in the Monster of Florence. Is that not true?

Yes, he did. And he came to some pretty odd conclusions, which won him being charged in an indictment, and convicted. Perhaps he saw Amanda and Raff as his second chance? Poor Miggy

 

[Malkmus]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568773/Students-sex-party-that-ended-in-murder.html

That Meredith refused I think is obvious. That that is how it started is my own deduction. The point was that the group is easily formed in such a situation, and you don't need to be best friends. I can play b-ball with total strangers on a recreational field and then when someone comes along who wants us all off then it can happen that me and the strangers turn against that someone. Not in such an extreme way as what happened with Meredith of course, but the 3 against 1 situation doesn't need any special bonding IMO.

Sherlock, I'm not sure if you're aware that both Amanda's 1:30am and 5:30am statements have been available in full and posted here in the past, and that neither contain a quote saying anything like "We were drunk and just wanted to have fun", or anything about Meredith refusing to join her and someone else in something. What you've done is quote a tabloid article from just a couple days after the murder, containing information that is false. You can either search for the actual statements released by PLE on here from when it was posted some time back, or if not, at some point I will search for them and will repost them. Either way, it would be better to cite the official documents.

As far as your argument bout Mignini not ever being the one to raise the satanic ritual/masonic ritual/Halloween rite as a catalyst for the murder of Meredith Kercher, I think the best way to convince those of us who disagree with you would be to cite where Mignini has ever denied this. I have never read that, but if you claim he did then please, when you have the time, cite this as it would be quite helpful in clearing this up. I will note that simply because some of the sources for the claim of satanism are from the defense lawyers does not mean it is not true. As others have cited for you, the media has reported this as coming from the prosecution and Barbie Nadeau writes in her book that Mignini's satanic ritual argument was thrown out by the judge before the trial started.

 

[SMK]

I see an average 24 or 25 year old female from Seattle that has no claim to fame other than being a foxy knoxy on the soccer field. Her writing is horrible in quality, style and content yet she believed herself to be some sort of writer.

She is from a broken home and the term still applies whether it's common or not. She went to Europe, thinking it was her playground.

Her uncle in Germany went to great lengths to secure her a position and apartment so she could work at the Bundesrepublik - an opportunity that many would jump at. Knox took the free apartment that came with the job and blew off the job ... claiming that she had the flu a week earlier so she couldn't work. She then partied in the park for two weeks. When she was caught by her uncle, she admittedly showed some tears to get out of trouble and then wrote "ciao sucker" about it on her social media page. She was living the Looking for Mr Goodbar life in Europe, and enjoying the relaxed drug laws. There is nothing intelligent about how she carried on in Europe.

By all accounts, she was prompt and able to tell time when attending classes in Perugia, a one semester study abroad program. Yet on the night of the murder, she was suddenly incapable of telling time ... nothing intelligent about that, and there's nothing inteligent about lying to the Carabinieri.

Okie, so almost all her classmates came from broken homes. Guess what, Otto, Meredith came from a broken home as well! For a man, you sure do not see her beauty as most do.....

 

[Sonata]

I see an average 24 or 25 year old female from Seattle that has no claim to fame other than being a foxy knoxy on the soccer field. Her writing is horrible in quality, style and content yet she believed herself to be some sort of writer.

She is from a broken home and the term still applies whether it's common or not. She went to Europe, thinking it was her playground.

Her uncle in Germany went to great lengths to secure her a position and apartment so she could work at the Bundesrepublik - an opportunity that many would jump at. Knox took the free apartment that came with the job and blew off the job ... claiming that she had the flu a week earlier so she couldn't work. She then partied in the park for two weeks. When she was caught by her uncle, she admittedly showed some tears to get out of trouble and then wrote "ciao sucker" about it on her social media page. She was living the Looking for Mr Goodbar life in Europe, and enjoying the relaxed drug laws. There is nothing intelligent about how she carried on in Europe.

By all accounts, she was prompt and able to tell time when attending classes in Perugia, a one semester study abroad program. Yet on the night of the murder, she was suddenly incapable of telling time ... nothing intelligent about that, and there's nothing inteligent about lying to the Carabinieri.

What about the fact that so many people had weird stories to tell about her in the aftermath of the arrests? Saying that she behaved in a odd manner etc.

What about the fact that we have all discussed her on this forum having never met her?

What about the fact that if you google her a whole mess of pages come up?

All of those suggest that a vast number of people find her 'interesting'.

 

[Sonata]

Okie, so almost all her classmates came from broken homes. Guess what, Otto, Meredith came from a broken home as well! For a man, you sure do not see her beauty as most do.....

Yeah I must say, generally broken home is not used in cases where the family remained fairly stable after divorce.

I reference myself here; I had once or twice played the pity card of coming from a broken home and nobody will allow me to.

 

[otto]

Yes, he did. And he came to some pretty odd conclusions, which won him being charged in an indictment, and convicted. Perhaps he saw Amanda and Raff as his second chance? Poor Miggy

Prosecutor Mignini was charged with illegally wiretapping media and police during a serial murder investigation. Is there any evidence that he did this in the murder investigation of Meredith Kercher?

"Giuliano Mignini, the prosecutor who secured the conviction last month of the American student Amanda Knox for the murder of her British flatmate Meredith Kercher, was handed a 16-month prison sentence yesterday for “abuse of office” in a separate murder investigation.

Mignini was convicted by a Florence court of exceeding his powers by tapping the phones of police officers and journalists investigating the still unsolved “Monster of Florence” serial killings between 1968 and 1985."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6999196.ece

 

[SMK]

Yeah I must say, generally broken home is not used in cases where the family remained fairly stable after divorce.

I reference myself here; I had once or twice played the pity card of coming from a broken home and nobody will allow me to.

Right - it is simply too common these days. Both my sisters were divorced, and nearly all of my cousins and neighbors. All with Masters degrees, big homes, vacations, camps for the kids. "Broken home" conjures up images of squalor, alcoholism, stigma. Meredith Kercher's parents divorced, too.

 

[Sonata]

Right - it is simply too common these days. Both my sisters were divorced, and nearly all of my cousins and neighbors. All with Masters degrees, big homes, vacations, camps for the kids. "Broken home" conjures up images of squalor, alcoholism, stigma. Meredith Kercher's parents divorced, too.

Exactly. Both my parents on their 3rd marriages. My grandparents divorced. Most of my friends have divorced parents. It's just way more common. Broken home doesn't just mean divorced parents. It means way more than that.

 

[wasnt_me]

4 of your 6 links say exactly what I said. That it was the defense lawyers accusing the prosecution. Two of your 6 links 'forgot' to mention that part and directly blamed the prosecution. I already gave the original quote from Maori so I don't see what is exactly the point here?

What I see in these articles is that the prosecution actually said it in court and then the defense lawyer, when interviewed, repeated what was said. Since he is not up for slander, I believe he was accurately retelling what was said in court.

 

[otto]

Okie, so almost all her classmates came from broken homes. Guess what, Otto, Meredith came from a broken home as well! For a man, you sure do not see her beauty as most do.....

Not seeing it on the outside:

Absolutely not seeing it on the inside, especially after she left Patrick to rot in jail for 2 weeks.

Photo ref: http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/q9SqavCAezp/Amanda+Knox+Continues+Appeal+Over+Meredith/eRH_tSJWYem

 

[otto]

What about the fact that so many people had weird stories to tell about her in the aftermath of the arrests? Saying that she behaved in a odd manner etc.

What about the fact that we have all discussed her on this forum having never met her?

What about the fact that if you google her a whole mess of pages come up?

All of those suggest that a vast number of people find her 'interesting'.

How about ... a whole lot of people found Meredith Kercher interesting and are disgusted with the three murderers. How about ... one cannot understand that truth about the murder of Meredith Kercher without encountering information about the murderers: Guede, Knox and Sollecito.