Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #21

[Monzoo]

So no verdict until 2:00? (That would be 1:00 central time)

That's what the judge indicated this morning. I think there will be a warning when the verdict is imminent. I''ll certainly post if I see something. (Keeping a tab for twitter open on my browser)

 

[Clearly Confused]

I'm confused on how they can say a verdict will be in at a certain time if they are still deliberating. What if they aren't finished? I'm thinking they have already made up their minds if they can give a time when this will happen.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

It's probably not the time to ask about what that "other evidence" is, but please bear in mind that there has been an enormous amount of misinformation circulated about this case on both sides of the Atlantic. In particular the Italian police released a lot of "information" in the early stages which was a pack of lies. That information and discussion of it is of course still out there, and unless you trace the articles describing its refutation, it's very easy to draw the wrong conclusion.

BBM:

The one thing I have never ever been able to get past is a FACT of this case :

The FACT that Amanda Knox "accused" an INNOCENT man, Patrick Lumumba (sp), of the murder of MK !

I know ... the 10-14 hour "interrogation" ? Still ... if you are stating the TRUTH, you should never "accuse" an INNOCENT man ... even during an "interrogation" ... if you remain CONSISTENT with your statement, no need to "fabricate" ... MOO ...

It reminded me so much of Susan Smith -- remember when Smith blamed an African-American male for her children's murder -- and it was Susan Smith herself who murdered her children ? That was the "cincher" for me !

Now ...WHY would Amanda bring in Mr. Lumumba (sp) as the "murderer" of MK ?

We know for a FACT that an African man was there -- Rudy Guede.

So ... did AK have knowledge that an African man was at the cottage the night of the murder -- which was later determined to be Rudy Guede ? IMO -- Amanda had to know because she was there.

What I am trying to say is this : When Amanda "chose" to "blame" someone, WHY did she pick an African man ? Why not an "Italian", English, American man, or even a "women" ?

Amanda's CHOICE of "blaming" an innocent African man EVENTUALLY matched up the FACT that there was an African man at the scene who was complicit in the murder of Meredith Kercher and whose DNA evidence put him there !

Was that a "LUCKY PICK" for Amanda ... or did she have "foreknowledge" ?

Amanda had to know there was an African male at the scene, otherwise, WHY blame another innocent African male ? Because Amanda KNEW Rudy Geude ... she knew he was there ...

I hope that made sense ...

As always, my opinion only ...

 

[sherlockh]

@ Rolfe:

I for one do not think CBS would have reported that some jurors "openly wept" as Knox read her statement, were it not true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20114632.shtml

Of course it is not true.

The jury had been cautioned not to show emotion and instead sat stoically as Knox and Sollecito spoke.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...knox-appeal-verdict-perugia-s-wild-scene.html

 

[marlame]

So perhaps they were in the right configuration for her to take the knife from a countertop and place it in the drawer. If the configuration is supposed to imply that she held it perfectly in the manner to kill someone, then she would have to not have touched it after the murder, and then when it was used on whatever food substance it was used on. Also, that when the majority of blood was washed off, she didn't wash the handle. Which makes zero sense. The fact that there is even a discussion about how her fingerprints are patterend on the handle is compleely insane to me. There is no evidentiary value in THE PATTERN of the fingerprints no matter what they are.

UNLESS the fingerprints were staged on the knife to make it look like it was used for a murder and then never touched afterwards, because the knife was a plant. The person doing the planting didn't think about the fact that the knife would need to be touched again, to wash it. And they certainly didn't think they'd need to explain that the knife was handled after the murder in order to prepare food.

I thought it came out at the appeal that a bloody knife inprint was found at the scene of the crime on Meredith's bed and the knife that Amanda's fingerprints were found on was much smaller knife. Actually, the knife that left the bloody imprint on the bed has never been found.

IMHO...The Prosecution has based its case on emotional fantasy rather than legal reality.

Refuted Evidence:
KNIFE- Found at RS flat...No traces of blood could be found - only starch - which the independent EXPERTS said would have been washed away if it had been as thoroughly cleaned with bleach as police and prosecutors insisted.

It also did not match a bloody outline of a knife left on Meredith's bed and was also far too big to have caused the wounds on Meredith's throat.

BRA- The clasp was also dismissed because it had been left lying on the floor for six weeks before being collected - and even then there were more than 50 breaches of internationally recognized crime scene evidence collection protocol.

A video was shown in court of the crime scene being examined and the experts highlighted how the team wore dirty gloves, picked up evidence using their hands instead of tweezers and put evidence in plastic bags instead of paper ones. And shoe covers were not changed regularly. All this they suggested led to evidence being contaminated. Prosecutors dismissed the Independent Experts opinions and called them "inexperienced".

IMPORTANT: In the room itself, apart from the contested bra clasp, there was no trace of DNA from either Knox OR Sollecito - a point which defense lawyers constantly claimed through out the trial, insisting that the charges should have been thrown out years ago! The prosecution had NO REASON to believe Knox OR Sollecito were ever in Meredith’s room. The ONLY known DNA (which was everywhere) belonged to Meredith and her killer, Rudy. It would be virtually impossible for Knox and Sollecito to remove/clean-up just “their” DNA, if they had been involved.

WINESSES:
The other disputed areas in the case were the witnesses and among them were druggie Antonio Curatolo and store owner Marco Quintavalle.

Curatolo, a heroin addict, has testified he had seen Knox and Sollecito by the house where the murder was committed at the time of the crime - although high on heroin he insists he remembered the night clearly. But, during the appeal he appeared confused and his claim of seeing them was challenged when it emerged no buses were running or clubs open that night as it was an Italian bank holiday on November 1, the night Meredith was killed.

Mr. Quintavalle, (owner of a store next to Sollecito’s flat) told investigators just day’s after the murder when he was first questioned, that he had not seen Knox and Sollecito. All of a sudden one year later, he gave an interview to a local newspaper in Perugia claiming that he now remembered Knox coming into his store to buy bleach. Yet, no receipts for bleach were ever found. Additionally, a shop assistant working for Mr. Quintavalle, said that she did not recall seeing either Knox or Sollecito in the shop that morning.


Knox's confession
Great emphasis was placed on Knox's confession to police that she had been at the house when the murder took place. The police insisted because of a text she sent to Patrick saying “see you later” that he was involved. The statement came after "14 hours non-stop questioning'' from police and prosecutors who had ''breached her civil rights", said her lawyer in court. By the time the police and prosecutor got Meredith to submit to a coerced confession she said she "covered my ears" as she heard bar owner Patrick Lumumba kill Meredith. Mr. Lumumba was arrested and jailed for two weeks before being released after a customer came forward and proved he was at his bar. But, important to note…the very next day after Knox’s interrogation she wrote a letter stating that she did not believe Patrick had anything to do with Meredith’s murder.

Important to note are severe interrogation techniques to force a confession: (all of which were used on Amanda Knox)

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs prisoner and shakes him.
2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.
3. Exhaustion, sleep deprivation, withholding food/water
4. Threats, insults, and inhumane treatment

*The use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. The use of force is very different than using psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and non-coercive means.
(Former FBI investigator Steve Moore who independently investigated this case, said on TV: "I know these type of techniques and believe me if they are used properly you could even get the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini to admit to murder - I'm just surprised it took 14 hours.")

It is obvious the Italian police wanted the crime solved ASAP and who better to pin it on but Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito-- the first people to arrive outside the crime scene the morning following the murder. The lead prosecutor Giuliano Mignini was quick to take complete control of this case. He already had two suspects handed to him from lead investigator, Edgardo Giobbi. What they didn’t initially count on was finding out Rudy Goede was actually the lone murderer. So in true CYA fashion because the world was watching…Mignini (and his good buddy, Giobbi), created a “tale” to fit the “story” of what happened. Mignini's mind went to work. He had a vision of how this crime took place. He believed the crime started out as a sadistic sex game that turned into a brutal murder when Meredith refused to participate.

As it turns out, based upon the evidence and testimony flushed out in the appeal, his fantasy of a group sex game gone wrong was based on nothing more than his imagination. It is just unreal!

Italy should be ashamed of itself....Meredith Kercher deserved real justice and that was in the conviction of Rude Guede, her true assailant and killer.

My heart goes out to the Kercher family AND I pray Amanda Knox is found not guilty!

 

[Rolfe]

@ Rolfe:

I for one do not think CBS would have reported that some jurors "openly wept" as Knox read her statement, were it not true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20114632.shtml

Thank you SMK, I'm very pleased to hear that. I simply can't see any reason why anyone who believed these two had been involved in that brutal murder would be weeping at their pleas for justice.

Even if someone who believed in innocence thought that they were about to be over-ruled, I'd have thought they'd be more focussed on how they would try to change their fellow-jurors' minds than greeting about it.

 

[Princezna8]

I always had an odd feeling when I saw Amanda Knox on TV. Can't wait to see what the final saying is during the trial.

Either way, Guilty or not, I just hope justice is served.

 

[marlame]

BBM:

The one thing I have never ever been able to get past is a FACT of this case :

The FACT that Amanda Knox "accused" an INNOCENT man, Patrick Lumumba (sp), of the murder of MK !

I know ... the 10-14 hour "interrogation" ? Still ... if you are stating the TRUTH, you should never "accuse" an INNOCENT man ... even during an "interrogation" ... if you remain CONSISTENT with your statement, no need to "fabricate" ... MOO ...

It reminded me so much of Susan Smith -- remember when Smith blamed an African-American male for her children's murder -- and it was Susan Smith herself who murdered her children ? That was the "cincher" for me !

Now ...WHY would Amanda bring in Mr. Lumumba (sp) as the "murderer" of MK ?

We know for a FACT that an African man was there -- Rudy Guede.

So ... did AK have knowledge that an African man was at the cottage the night of the murder -- which was later determined to be Rudy Guede ? IMO -- Amanda had to know because she was there.

What I am trying to say is this : When Amanda "chose" to "blame" someone, WHY did she pick an African man ? Why not an "Italian", English, American man, or even a "women" ?

Amanda's CHOICE of "blaming" an innocent African man EVENTUALLY matched up the FACT that there was an African man at the scene who was complicit in the murder of Meredith Kercher and whose DNA evidence put him there !

Was that a "LUCKY PICK" for Amanda ... or did she have "foreknowledge" ?

Amanda had to know there was an African male at the scene, otherwise, WHY blame another innocent African male ? Because Amanda KNEW Rudy Geude ... she knew he was there ...

I hope that made sense ...

As always, my opinion only ...

This stumped me too, initally. But after some searching I had my answer...
There was african american hair found at the crime scene. It was the italian police and prosecutor that introduced Patrick Lumumba into the equation, not Amanda. The police insisted because of a text she sent to Patrick saying “see you later” that he was involved. Amanda's statement came after 14+ hours non-stop interrogation. And the very next day she wrote a letter stating that she didn't believe Mr. Lumumba was involved.

This case is just a tragedy. :furious:

 

[Rolfe]

dog.gone.cute, <modsnip> Amanda's statements do not read as an "accusation" of Patrick. She speaks of a dream or an imagining, when she was asked to imagine what might have happened.

The prosecution claimed that she and Raffaele had selectively cleaned away all their own fingerprints and DNA, leaving only Rudy Guede's. Ignoring for a moment that this is completely impossible, why then would Amanda suddenly "accuse" someone completely different, someone whom she might have guessed had an alibi (as he would have been at Le Chic that evening to the best of her knowledge)?

The alleged staging of the crime scene is supposed, by the prosecution, to have been done by Knox and Sollecito in order to cause Guede to take all the blame. If that was the grand plan, and for some inexplicable reason Amanda had decided to deviate from the "I was at Raffaele's place all night" story, why on earth would she not have named Rudy?

The fact is that suspects are mandated to have legal representation when being interviewed for very good reason. Amanda had no lawyer, and was told it would be worse for her if she asked for one. There is no video or even audio recording of the proceedings. She says she was slapped around by the police. There were 12 police involved in this interrogation! The incriminating statement was given at about five o'clock in the morning.

She was twenty. She spoke little Italian. She was exhausted. The police were in her face, in force, refusing to believe her version of events. They slapped her, and shouted at her. They suggested she tell them something else. This is exactly why this sort of interrogation is illegal under EU law. And it is exactly why it is actually inadmissible in the murder trial.

<modsnip> these students left their little love-nest after dark, hooked up with someone they barely knew (Raffaele, the one who actually had a common language with Rudy, had never met him at all), and went back to Amanda's cottage to rape and murder her flatmate? As opposed to the simple version, the one all the physical evidence supports, that Rudy was surprised by Meredith while burgling the cottage, and attacked and murdered her?

<modsnip>

 

[SMK]

Of course it is not true.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...knox-appeal-verdict-perugia-s-wild-scene.html

CBS vs The Daily Beast. OK, who is lying???:furious:

 

[dog.gone.cute]

This stumped me too, initally. But after some searching I had my answer...
There was african american hair found at the crime scene. It was the italian police and prosecutor that introduced Patrick Lumumba into the equation, not Amanda. The police insisted because of a text she sent to Patrick saying “see you later” that he was involved. Amanda's statement came after 14+ hours non-stop interrogation. And the very next day she wrote a letter stating that she didn't believe Mr. Lumumba was involved.

This case is just a tragedy. :furious:

I agree this case is a "tragedy" ... especially for Meredith and her family.

However ... I remain "firm" in my belief that AK and RS were involved ... MOO ...

I know the Italian police saw the text message on AK's phone from Patrick -- and I understand that there was "confusion" about the "interpretation.

However ... NO ONE should ever accuse an INNOCENT man -- even after a 14 hour interrogation -- if AK would have been CONSISTENT in her "stories" it would not have been necessary to bring in Patrick.

MOO ...

 

[SMK]

Maresca now saying verdict will be closer to 10 pm Perugia, which is 4 pm EST:furious:

 

[MsFacetious]

That's what the judge indicated this morning. I think there will be a warning when the verdict is imminent. I''ll certainly post if I see something. (Keeping a tab for twitter open on my browser)

Earlier this morning when they took Amanda back to the jail... that was a pretty obvious thing. I wonder if it would be just as obvious if they bring her back? I'm guessing she will be returned for a verdict?

If one sees that same vehicle with the lights and making lots of noise, maybe that's a sign it is imminent?

 

[OldSteve]

Maresca now saying verdict will be closer to 10 pm Perugia, which is 4 pm EST:furious:

Wonder why the change? Something said in the defendant's statements causing more debate?

 

[marlame]

CBS vs The Daily Beast. OK, who is lying???:furious:

Odd...I read that it was 48 Hours Mystery's Peter Van Sant from CBS who said that several members of the jury openly wept, as did journalists who have been covering the case. Hmmm...:waitasec:

 

[Allusonz]

I agree this case is a "tragedy" ... especially for Meredith and her family.

However ... I remain "firm" in my belief that AK and RS were involved ... MOO ...

I know the Italian police saw the text message on AK's phone from Patrick -- and I understand that there was "confusion" about the "interpretation.

However ... NO ONE should ever accuse an INNOCENT man -- even after a 14 hour interrogation -- if AK would have been CONSISTENT in her "stories" it would not have been necessary to bring in Patrick.

MOO ...

Some very interesting information in this google translate. A repost of mine from a few pages back

As per the google translate above. Why is he not suing this person? He stated the bar was closed. I don't see his lawyer calling this individual a demon.

ETA

"It is certain that the prosecution initially did not matter to Amanda Knox and who the murderess, the important thing was having a killer fit, so that when it came out the name of Lumumba was recovered once a super-swift witness to affirm that the night of the murder managed by the local Zairian was closed.His name was inserted in the order of arrest and he was sought by all journalists, to which journalists released this statement: "Yes, I think that that night the place was closed. I pour the 19 I left home and I seems that the door of 'Le Chic' was closed. As long as do not know. I do not remember what I did tonight. " And all thanks to him to play "From the Lumumba", because those who had spent the damn evening in his restaurant every interrogation lost memory usage and anticipated output times"

http://translate.google.com/translat...o.html&act=url

 

[SMK]

Wonder why the change? Something said in the defendant's statements causing more debate?

Let's hope it is just something to do with setting up cameras, or having a long dinner, or someone has an obligation this afternoon....the suspense is maddening.:maddening:

 

[imanta]

I'm one of the people who fall on the side of believing AK and RS are innocent. IMO the evidence they had against them was completely discredited during the appeal.

One thing that I found shocking was seeing the police video of the crime scene during the evidence collection over a month after Meredith was murdered. I was surprised that some of the clothes (e.g. the light blue jacket and her shoes) she was wearing that night were not collected initially? And then of course as many have already mentioned above, the very poor evidence collection techniques (or lack of appropriate technique) that were used. Does anyone know if this is "typical" crime scene investigation for Italy or if it was just the work of the Perugia police department for this investigation? Is Perugia a town where the police have to deal with a lot of murders? (I'm assuming maybe not?)

 

[nursebeeme]

it is okay to have different opinions peeps.. but please remember to attack the post and not the poster.

thank you.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

dog.gone.cute, I think you're quite confused. Amanda's statements do not read as an "accusation" of Patrick. She speaks of a dream or an imagining, when she was asked to imagine what might have happened.

Really?

snipped for space and bbm:

No ... LOL ... I am not confused ... LOL ...

If AK's statement regarding Patrick does NOT read like an "accusation", then WHY was Patrick arrested and incarcerated for something he did not do ? Because AK's "accusation" was a strong "accusation" ... MOO ...

I have read AK's statement and I remember the part about the "dream" and the "imaging" ...

IMO it speaks volumes !

MOO ...