Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #5

[dgfred]

My bad, then, fred. I entirely misunderstood. I thought you were referring to your own previous post and its "IMO." Now I see you meant that another poster should have qualified his post.

Sorry 'bout that.

No problem Nova.

 

[otto]

Did they all have abdominal scars from knife fights? That strikes me as a tad more hard core (i.e., IMO).

And didn't I read that RG was alleged to have dealt drugs in a police report? The "alleged" should be included, but that's a bit more than mere opinion.

Changing the subject, slightly, I know that RG was a friend of the boys downstairs (which is why I disagree with the Motivation Report's certainty that MK would not open the door to him). But what gave you your sense of that friendship? I mean what testimony, etc., most helped you to form your understanding of the relationships?

What I wrote is that "there is no proof that Rudy was a drug dealer". As far as I know, Rudy selling drugs is pure speculation. I haven't read anywhere that he was ever charged with dealing drugs.

Rudy played basketball with the guys downstairs, and I understand that he was there a couple of times to party with drugs. Amanda was there too, as was Meredith ... but Meredith was dating one of the guys downstairs, so she could have been there because of her boyfriend. Amanda and Rudy were there for the party, as there was no other reason for them to be there.

 

[Nova]

Italian law is what matters here. Personal use quantities of drugs are not considered a problem in most of Europe. If Rudy sold a personal use quantity of hashish to Raffaele, are Rudy's activities worse than Raffaele's? Without a customer, there is no crime.

Amanda and Raffaele have admitted using drugs on the night of the murder, resulting in their memories being wiped clean ... and they have sworn to never touch drugs again. What has been debated is whether they were only using hashish, or whether they were also using something like cocaine, not whether they were stoned.

Actually, Italian law is not necessarily what matters, since this isn't a drug case and the drug dealing is relevant only as character evidence. One may decide that American law better reflects reality. (Personally, I think our entire anti-drug system is corrupt. And I have said so in court, refusing to serve as a juror for the trial of a small-time drug dealer.)

I understand the philosophical question you are asking and the implication that usage is necessary for the crime of selling to exist. Nonetheless, we generally punish and consider more severe the person who runs a criminal enterprise. (Same with child : possession is illegal, but doesn't carry the same penalty as actually creating and selling child .)

Whether making a distinction between RG and RS in terms of drug usage is fair, I don't know. I do know that only one of them went on the lam; the other called the police. Only one of them had a pending indictment for burglary.

"Wiped clean"? Where was that said? I do know that AK says her memory of the night is hazy. She has said that repeatedly.

 

[Nova]

If I had to choose between spending an hour with one of: the B&E guy that might sell drugs, the knife carrying drug addict that likes beastiality, or the lying prankster opportunist writer that likes rape and watching people die slowly ... I'm probably going to choose the drug dealer.

How many images of bestiality did RS view?

This keeps coming up and some of us keep reminding people that it once was common for American young men to go to Tijuana to see women copulate with donkeys. It was an oddity (titillating probably only because it "forbidden"), not an indication of their own sexual tastes, much less penchants for murder.

 

[Nova]

Did the guy that got the knife scar have a knife at the time?
Getting a scar is not the hard core part, GIVING the scar might be.

:floorlaugh:

A lot of things are 'alleged', but nothing showing/proving RG was a dealer has been presented. At most I think he was probably just a middle man between transactions- he wanted to 'help' the students and hang out with/around them and could get them what they wanted.

Fair enough. But as has been pointed out many times, drug dealing was not RG's only alleged crime; in fact, it was not the allegation most relevant to the crime we are discussing.

 

[Malkmus]

Maybe left out the 'IMO' part of that.

Adding "IMO" would be a bit redundant, yes? That would be why I wrote "I think".

Well, the report does just say he was "allegedly" a drug dealer, but unless there is something that denies the claim I'm not sure this issue has been settled. It would be helpful if you could explain why this has been "squashed". I think also of relevancy is the fact that he has a scar on his chest from a knife fight, coupled with his troubled upbringing as an adopted child and an abusive father, and subsequent break-ins. These are in stark contrast with Amanda's noise violation and Raffaele's carrying a pocketknife and watching a bestiality .

You still haven't shown us how the Rudy being a drug dealer allegation has been "squashed".

 

[Malkmus]

Dgfred and Otto, stating that Raffaele had a "cocaine problem" and was a "drug addict" is a pretty gross exaggeration of the facts. Especially since you have such a problem with calling Rudy a drug dealer, despite having nothing to refute the article which says he was one. If we're going to go by the standard that he smoked pot regularly and had done cocaine at some point then I think we have to call the boys downstairs and all the girls in the cottage drug addicts as well.

 

[Allusonz]

What I wrote is that "there is no proof that Rudy was a drug dealer". As far as I know, Rudy selling drugs is pure speculation. I haven't read anywhere that he was ever charged with dealing drugs.

Rudy played basketball with the guys downstairs, and I understand that he was there a couple of times to party with drugs. Amanda was there too, as was Meredith ... but Meredith was dating one of the guys downstairs, so she could have been there because of her boyfriend. Amanda and Rudy were there for the party, as there was no other reason for them to be there.

prove to me he wasn't

 

[Allusonz]

Is there some distinction to be made between someone like Raffaele, who regularly consumed drugs and kept drug dealers in business, or the guy that sold the drugs?

is there not?

In jurisdictions where certain drugs are illegal, they are generally supplied on the black market by criminal drug dealers in response to consumer demand. Drug dealers are stereotypically associated with organized crime syndicates, though they often work freelance in reality and bear no connection to organized criminal groups. The motivations for participation in the drug trade vary greatly depending on the specific drug. Dealers of "soft" drugs with relatively low profit margins such as marijuana and psychedelic mushrooms often cite the philanthropic desire to allow people to use such drugs in spite of their illegality as their motivation, with profit as a secondary factor, and tend to view drug prohibition laws as immoral restraints of personal civil liberties by the state. In contrast, dealers of "hard" drugs such as heroin and cocaine with more severe trafficking penalties, and consequently much higher profit margins, are more often motivated by greed

 

[Allusonz]

Maybe left out the 'IMO' part of that.

you cannot just simply put IMO without backup especially debates

 

[Allusonz]

Did the guy that got the knife scar have a knife at the time?
Getting a scar is not the hard core part, GIVING the scar might be.

Alot of things are 'alleged', but nothing showing/proving RG was a dealer has been presented. At most I think he was probably just a middle man between transactions- he wanted to 'help' the students and hang out with/around them and could get them what they wanted.

considering the number of students that attend school in perugia that would indeed be a very lucrative business

 

[Nova]

you cannot just simply put IMO without backup especially debates

That isn't what she meant, Allusonz. I made the same mistake.

dgfred thought malkmus should qualify his post; he thought he had with the words "I think..."

 

[Nova]

I'm not sure why we're so concerned with whether RG was a "drug dealer" and how "dealer" should be defined. (Personally, I suspect that was RG's PRIMARY function within the group of boys and girls who lived in the house. Why else would they put up with his odor?)

Isn't it more important that he was an alleged burglar, and not just any burglar, but one who had invaded a building in ways similar to the way MK's house appeared to have been invaded that night?

 

[Allusonz]

I'm not sure why we're so concerned with whether RG was a "drug dealer" and how "dealer" should be defined. (Personally, I suspect that was RG's PRIMARY function within the group of boys and girls who lived in the house. Why else would they put up with his odor?)

Isn't it more important that he was an alleged burglar, and not just any burglar, but one who had invaded a building in ways similar to the way MK's house appeared to have been invaded that night?

Personally I am not. There has been an issue with cocaine since a number was on AK's phone in which the person who happened to be a witness for the prosecution was found guilty of drug charges you would have to look back at the beginning to see my explanation with respect to this

 

[Nova]

Personally I am not. There has been an issue with cocaine since a number was on AK's phone in which the person who happened to be a witness for the prosecution was found guilty of drug charges you would have to look back at the beginning to see my explanation with respect to this

I've used both marijuana and cocaine. I understand that a cocaine-fueled orgy is far more likely to end in violence than a marijuana-fueled orgy.

But I don't seen where either had been proven in this case.

 

[otto]

Dgfred and Otto, stating that Raffaele had a "cocaine problem" and was a "drug addict" is a pretty gross exaggeration of the facts. Especially since you have such a problem with calling Rudy a drug dealer, despite having nothing to refute the article which says he was one. If we're going to go by the standard that he smoked pot regularly and had done cocaine at some point then I think we have to call the boys downstairs and all the girls in the cottage drug addicts as well.

From the Motivation Report; page 62, Drug Addiction; known habit:

"Both Amanda and Raffaele were using drugs; there are multiple corroborating statements to this effect (page 19, statements of Romanelli, hearing of February 7, 2009; statements of Mezzetti, hearing of February 14, 2009; page 164, hearing of March 27, 2009, statements of Antonio Galizia, Carabinieri [C.ri] station commander in Giovinazzo, who testified that in September 2003 Raffaele Sollecito was found in possession of 2.67 grams of hashish; in the tapped intercepts, Amanda had several times made reference to marijuana use)."

From the Motivation Report; page 365
Amanda and Raffaele stoned on the night of the murder:

"Amanda moreover had reported that that evening they had ‚made love‛, although in Raffaele’s house, after having consumed drugs (hashish) prepared by Raffaele Sollecito."

The cocaine information is not in the report, but it has been discussed since the murder, and I don't have a handy link. It's not important, but it is my suspicion that cocaine could have been used on the night of the murder.

The fact that the guys downstairs were growing pot kind of suggests they were users.

Laura and Filomina were not students, and they didn't hang out with the students, so I don't think we can throw them in with the rest of the students that lived in the cottage.

 

[Salem]

prove to me he wasn't

The post clearly says "as far as I know."

That means it is the poster's opinion and interpretation of the facts. The poster is allowed to have their OWN opinion. If you disagree, that's fine, but it is your responsibility to put the facts/reasons on the table - not to call the poster out and insinuate that he/she is wrong.

Thanks,

Salem
Mod

 

[Malkmus]

From the Motivation Report; page 62, Drug Addiction; known habit:

"Both Amanda and Raffaele were using drugs; there are multiple corroborating statements to this effect (page 19, statements of Romanelli, hearing of February 7, 2009; statements of Mezzetti, hearing of February 14, 2009; page 164, hearing of March 27, 2009, statements of Antonio Galizia, Carabinieri [C.ri] station commander in Giovinazzo, who testified that in September 2003 Raffaele Sollecito was found in possession of 2.67 grams of hashish; in the tapped intercepts, Amanda had several times made reference to marijuana use)."

From the Motivation Report; page 365
Amanda and Raffaele stoned on the night of the murder:

"Amanda moreover had reported that that evening they had ‚made love‛, although in Raffaele’s house, after having consumed drugs (hashish) prepared by Raffaele Sollecito."

The cocaine information is not in the report, but it has been discussed since the murder, and I don't have a handy link. It's not important, but it is my suspicion that cocaine could have been used on the night of the murder.

The fact that the guys downstairs were growing pot kind of suggests they were users.

Laura and Filomina were not students, and they didn't hang out with the students, so I don't think we can throw them in with the rest of the students that lived in the cottage.

Nothing you quoted shows that either Amanda and Raffaele were drug addicts (instead of casual users) or had a cocaine problem. Additionally, I think putting "Drug Addiction; known habit" in the header of your source is very misleading as it's never mentioned in the report. To some less informed it makes it seem as if there is a chapter in the report entitled "Drug Addiction; known habit".

 

[Salem]

you cannot just simply put IMO without backup especially debates

Actually, at WS, you can. You may speculate, theorize and use conjucture. You only have to have a link when you post something as fact. If it was "in my opinion" that means it is an opinion, and opinions are allowed.

The flip side of the opinion, is that the reader has full discretion on how much weight they give the opinion. You can agree with it, agree with a part of it, or totally disagree with it. All okay.

Salem
Mod

 

[Nova]

Salem, I know we're not supposed to discuss TOS in threads, but I feel obligated to do so here because the whole "IMO" issue is due to confusion on my part.

Allusonz and I both misread dgfred's use of the phrase and I commented based on my misunderstanding. I've since realized my error and apologized, and dgfred has graciously accepted my apology.