GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[BetteDavisEyes]

It's all a defense game imo
Also Jennifer's attorney and James' attorney were from the same firm. I presume they still are.

The lawyers representing Jennifer and James are no longer partners. Each has her own legal practice.

Sex Crimes Defense Attorney | Shannon Smith Law

Your reputation, freedom and life are at stake. When the fight is this big, you can’t afford a lawyer who hesitates, second-guesses or plays it safe

defendingabuse.com

Home - Attorney Mariell R. Lehman

Highly sought after criminal defense attorney Mariel Lehman

mlehmanlaw.com

 

[cottonweaver]

Juror #13 -
He says his engineering brain makes him a good juror as he will be able to carefully analyze evidence as it applies to the charges. Defense attorney Shannon Smith joked with him that “We don’t let engineers sit on juries” because they typically see the world in black and white. “But there’s a lot of gray space in this case,” Smith said. The juror said he understood and that he could be fair.

Good point made by SS. "there's a lot of gray space in this case." I think that the jury finding guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is highly unlikely. As SS stated to juror #13, it is not a black and white case, there is a lot of gray area (my paraphrase of the above).

Beyond the serious points made, you have to laugh at Shannon Smith - she patronised the juror. IDK what type of engineer Juror 13 is but top tier engineers have to work with and weigh risk all of the time. Evaluation skills.

Shannon's never boring or grey but she certainly added a lot of gray mist to the proceedings imo. She is well trained in the dark arts of obfuscation

 

[TTF14]

Makes sense. Is he even entitled to try for an appeal since he confessed?

It is possible he also made it clear he wouldn't cooperate.

I think there is too much unknown here for a guilty verdict. If we knew for sure she'd seen the journals or even if we knew for sure he was laughed at when requesting help.....but those are unknowns. I'd be tempted to vote guilty just for her being a crappy person/wife/selfish mom, but none of those are crimes.

Teachers know kids as well as the parents sometimes (maybe more so in some cases) and everyone seems to have been very surprised he was capable of this. So it wasn't just Mom.

All my opinion and based on not having as much in-depth knowledge of this case that I'm sure some of you possess!

 

[Sundog]

I don’t believe it was a law at the time of the shooting , but common sense should have been used. Especially after all the school shootings in this country.

Regardless, the jury has to reach a verdict based on the law.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

James Crumbley's attorney asks judge to not allow graphic photos, video at Oxford trial

James Crumbley's trial for involuntary manslaughter begins March 5.

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac — An attorney for the father of the Oxford High School shooter is asking an Oakland County judge to not allow the jury to see photos and video from the November 2021 shooting, arguing that they are irrelevant and would be prejudicial for the jury to see.

Attorney Mariell Lehman said the "gruesome" photos, which show a pool of blood in the bathroom where Justin Shilling was killed and gunshot wounds to some of the injured students, are extremely prejudicial and do not prove any disputed issues in the case...

 

[Boodles]

It's all a defense game imo
Also Jennifer's attorney and James' attorney were from the same firm. I presume they still are.

That’s what crossed my mind. Manipulating EC via his yearning for their love, albeit “conditional,” (if it even is love).

 

[cottonweaver]

I don't think we're going to get a verdict today - does anybody else?

Just noticed that Cathy Russon bolded her tweet and if it's more than one juror who's asking ' how he got the gun' is that a poor reflection of the prosecution? Or the juror or jurors?

( IIRC the many times that Ethan was shown to be in possession of the gun when his parents were absent covered quite a few of the trial days IIRC. Photos, video clips, SM posts by EC. )

https://x.com/cathyrusson/status/1754576431999594836?s=20

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Who will decide Jennifer Crumbley's fate? A snapshot of the jury

The jury appears to be evenly split between men and women who work in a variety of jobs. The majority are parents and more than half had experience with guns.

www.detroitnews.com

Pontiac — Twelve Oakland County jurors now have the task of deciding whether Jennifer Crumbley bears responsibility for the 2021 Oxford High School shooting committed by her son.

The jurors began deliberating Monday morning after Crumbley's involuntary manslaughter trial wrapped up closing arguments on Friday in Oakland Circuit Court. The panel that listened to seven days of testimony is comprised of 17 jurors, including five chosen as alternates Monday morning after Oakland Circuit Judge Cheryl Matthews randomly drew their seat numbers. Those five will stay sequestered for now, in case any of the jurors deliberating become unable to continue.

Those deliberating appear to include six women and six men. Those picked as alternates appear to consist of four women and one man...

 

[Elisaa444]

I believe it came up. Because he would have to invoke his 5th amendment rights due to future appeals.

Yes, this is how I understand it. Smith argued at one point in the trial she'd like to call the shooter to testify, but the Judge said no because the shooter's attorneys opposed him testifying because as the Judge put it in so many words the shooter has an ongoing legal case with his appeals.

MOO/Moo/and more MOO

 

[IAMWAN]

Makes sense. Is he even entitled to try for an appeal since he confessed?

It is possible he also made it clear he wouldn't cooperate.

I think there is too much unknown here for a guilty verdict. If we knew for sure she'd seen the journals or even if we knew for sure he was laughed at when requesting help.....but those are unknowns. I'd be tempted to vote guilty just for her being a crappy person/wife/selfish mom, but none of those are crimes.

Teachers know kids as well as the parents sometimes (maybe more so in some cases) and everyone seems to have been very surprised he was capable of this. So it wasn't just Mom.

All my opinion and based on not having as much in-depth knowledge of this case that I'm sure some of you possess

I believe the potential appeal is of the life without parole sentence, not the actual plea. I seem to recall seeing something right before JC’s trial when it first came up that he couldn’t/wouldn’t be called to testify because he intended to plead the 5th.

Edited to add link:

Ethan Crumbley's new lawyers will try to keep him from testifying in parents' trials

The State Appellate Defender's Office has been assigned to the Oxford High School shooter's case, and moves to exclude material from parents' trials.

www.freep.com

 

[LMDlong]

https://x.com/cathyrusson/status/1754559036308222167?s=20

JURY QUESTION: Jury confused about two parts of the jury instructions about involuntary manslaughter. #JenniferCrumbley
Here are the two jury instructions the jury is asking about: #JenniferCrumbley #OxfordSchoolShooting
View attachment 481090

View attachment 481091

Does the jury have agree with each point under the charge or the majority?Example in16.13 if 4 points are agreed upon but 1 they don’t what happpens?

 

[KMouse]

I don’t believe it was a law at the time of the shooting , but common sense should have been used. Especially after all the school shootings in this country.

Common sense is not on trial here. Neither is sub standard parenting.

 

[LMDlong]

Common sense is not on trial here. Neither is sub standard parenting.

True.
IMO sub par parenting is letting a child go out without a coat on and get sick (1 example) . Not locking a gun up is not sub par parenting. Jmo

 

[cottonweaver]

full jury instructions have been given the the press now

36 pages long.... ( however, the meat of it starts on page 18)

Full updates: Jury to decide fate of Jennifer Crumbley after 7 days of testimony (Feb. 5)

A jury is deliberating whether Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the Oxford High School shooter, is guilty of involuntary manslaughter after seven days of testimony at her trial.

www.clickondetroit.com

 

[Jennifer4347]

Was it legal in Michigan for the parents to buy their 15 yr old a gun?
I know that EC's testimony was not admissible but he said that his money was used to buy the gun and the gun wasn't secured.

Ethan Crumbley: I gave my dad money to buy gun used in school shooting

The teenager contradicted his parents' story that the gun used to kill classmates was locked up and says he gave his dad money to buy the weapon.

www.freep.com

No it is not legal. You must be 21 years old and a background check is done at the time of purchase. There are exceptions to this. Example my dad took me and my 2 adult daughters to get new guns for our Christmas gift. He paid for them at the shop but, my daughter's and I had to sign the paperwork and do the background check. That is allowed. Example of what is not, my dad takes my brother (who by laws can't legally own a gun) to the gun store and bought a gun and did the background check on himself (dad), walked out of the store and gave it to my brother at that point. That is against the law. That was in place before our new gun laws take effect on Feb 15th.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Why the Oxford shooter didn’t testify at his mother’s manslaughter trial

Despite repeated requests from the defense, the Oxford High School shooter did not testify at his mother’s involuntary manslaughter trial as previously thought possible.

www.clickondetroit.com

OXFORD, Mich. – Despite repeated requests from the defense, the Oxford High School shooter did not testify at his mother’s involuntary manslaughter trial as previously thought possible.

Last week during the trial of Jennifer Crumbley, defense attorney Shannon Smith made it clear she wanted to call the shooter to the witness stand.

In the years since the shooting, a large catalogue of evidence has been discussed in court, including journal entries and text messages written by the shooter that criticize his parents and their alleged lack of attention. Still, the defense had hoped to call the shooter to the stand in defense of his mother.

It could’ve been a beneficial approach for the defense if the now-sentenced shooter spoke approvingly of his mother and accepted sole responsibility for the Nov. 30, 2021, shooting -- as he did in a statement during his sentencing hearing in December 2023...

I wonder if someone from WDIV (Channel 4, Detroit) is reading here and posted this article when questions were asked earlier about why Ethan didn't testify at his mother's trial?

 

[Weki]

Come ooooon, jury! What’s the hold up?

 

[Sundog]

Looks like the Michigan legislature passed firearm safe storage legislation and Michigan governor signed the bill into law in April 2023. Interesting data that half of all gun owners don't store or lock their guns.

https://www.michigan.gov/whitmer/news/press-releases/2023/04/13/whitmer-signs-commonsense-gun-violence-prevention-legislation-to-keep-michigan-communities-safe

“Over half of all gun owners don’t store and lock their guns, which means millions of young children live in homes with unlocked and loaded firearms,” said state Representative Felicia Brabec (D-Pittsfield Township), chair of the Michigan Firearm Safety and Violence Prevention Caucus. “That’s why we’ve introduced bills that crate safe storage requirements for firearm owners with children in the home. By keeping guns properly stored, we can prevent even the potential misuse of those weapons by children. We have a chance and a responsibility to change the culture around keeping guns responsibly and securely stored. I have high hopes that these bills will not only encourage responsible gun ownership but that they will save Michiganders’ lives.”


BBM

 

[DFWNF]

"Could I be charged for all actions of my child?"

Obviously the answer is no. If the jurors are so gullible that they think that is the question, then this case shouldn't have been a jury trial

Wow, they totally should be imo. Outrageous imo.

 

[cottonweaver]

Wow, they totally should be imo. Outrageous.

In Michigan, the existing law is around parents' legal duty to take reasonable/ordinary care to prevent their minors deliberately harming others ( it was also in the jury instructions which are linked above)

it's more complicated than that - see link - but in short no you couldn't reasonably make a parent liable for everything a minor does ( reasonable risks vs unreasonable risks etc)

existing law, as in existing prior to the OHS murders