GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[Izzylizzy]

Does anyone think that the outcome might have been different if JC had not testified?

Her testifing certainly didn't help her with the jury.

I do think that had she not testified and was found guilty it may have helped her with the judge when it came to her sentence.

Now everyone knows that then and now Jennifer is all about Jennifer.

 

[Cedars]

The evidence presented at trial concluded that it was JC who was last in possession of the gun.
JC testified saying that it was James who took the gun from the car into the house and hid it ( she didn't know where) had no evidence to back it up.

This is about Michigan laws about safe storage of guns around minors, not facts of who actually handled it.

If you have possession of a gun, you either keep possession, ie keep it on your person, out of reach of others, or you lock it up.

There is no option, in gun safety, to walk away from that gun without locking it up yourself. If you do not lock it up yourself, you are responsible for a minor misusing it.

JMO

 

[Odeto BJ]

We saw Jennifer with the gun at the gun range but we do not know where in the house or car the gun was when EC got his hands on it. It really doesn't matter if Jennifer brought the case into the house and put it away since it had the 0000 lock code. Both of the Crumbleys were aware of that.
When did EC take the gun? The night before? The morning of? Did he take it or because it was his did he have it in his room the whole time?

I cannot find the specific reference at the moment, but I recall there were SM exchanges between EC and one of his friends that included a photo of the weapon and was captioned WTTE "My new baby..." I believe that was at night and in the photo the gun was sitting on a piece of furniture in EC's "main" bedroom?
Considering the relatively short duration between purchase and the shootings:
Does anyone recall what night that was? The 29th?
If so: EC told one of the therapists that he had accessed the gun by getting up early on the morning of the 30th. Maybe all he needed at that time was to source some of the ammunition? Maybe he was loading clips early that morning?

IDK and as applicable JMO...

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Mother of student killed in Oxford High School shooting praises Jennifer Crumbley verdict, saying 'accountability is a must'

Nicole Beausoleil, the mother of Madisyn Baldwin, said the landmark verdict Tuesday “sets a new precedence to the justice system.”

www.nbcnews.com

The mother of a Michigan student who lost her life in the Oxford High School shooting in November 2021 praised Jennifer Crumbley’s verdict as making “monumental history.”

Nicole Beausoleil, the mother of Madisyn Baldwin, said in a statement Wednesday: “The verdict proves that accountability is a must.”

“This case especially is important to me as a mother because she didn’t want to take legal responsibility for her child, she took the right away from me to be there for my child for the remainder of my life,” she said...

 

[cottonweaver]

Does anyone think that the outcome might have been different if JC had not testified?

well so many of the pundits have already said that JC lacked credibility and now we have the Jury Foreperson also referencing JC's credibility issues so....

I wonder if James Crumbley's atty's are allowed to let him view videos or transcripts of it, to pick up hints or whether they're now strongly urging him not to testify at all.

 

[RickshawFan]

Now that I'm like a doggie with a bone on the van der Kolk stuff....

I've wondered why Ethan does bowling. His father mentions it in a text, yes? I can't make it fit with anything else. So, he's not at all into horses (which incidentally have been shown to be helpful with some "difficult" kids), rowing, karate, or polo, or lacrosse. So, what is the bowling thing? To me, bowling....I'm useless with the ball. But the one thing I do know about bowling alleys, they're noisy. And it's a particular kind of noisy. It's crashy and rhythmic. You hear the ball drop on the wood floor, then a kind of roll-y noise until it reaches the pins, then the sound of the pins being knocked out, then the machine setting them upright, then the ball rolling back to you and re-racking. 10 lanes or so of that.

Imagine if you were a kid with a lot of disorganized noise in your head (doesn't matter if you have a formal diagnosis of psychotic, just that you experience the universe this way), as Ethan does. But bowling gives you organized crashiness. And it would have meaning (namely the goal is to knock out pins). If I were that kind of kid, I could totally see myself wanting to be at the bowling alley. It would in a way organize the craziness in my brain.

This is just speculation on my part, but I do wonder about the bowling.

 

[cottonweaver]

new to me: '

• Prosecutors say immediately after their son was arrested, the couple started making plans to move to Florida where they would sell horses

old news link - Jan 2022 Bond Hearing

During Friday's bond hearing, Prosecutor Karen McDonald argued that the bond should remain at $500,000 for each of them because of their lack of ties to the state of Michigan and their plans to flee the area just hours following their son's arrest.

McDonald said James, who worked as a Doordash delivery driver and Jennifer, who had been terminated by her employer, both had families in Florida and started making plans to move there immediately after the shooting.

'On November 30, just hours after their son murdered children in a school, they started making plans.,' McDonald told the court.

She added that they started making plans to sell horses once they were in Florida and bought four cellphones. They had also drained their son's bank account of $3,000, leaving only 99 cents.

Ethan Crumbley's parents drained money from his bank account

Michigan high school shooter Ethan Crumbley's parents' James and Jennifer Crumbley will remain on a $500,000 bond after an Oakland County judge ruled they were a flight risk.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Izzylizzy]

I cannot find the specific reference at the moment, but I recall there were SM exchanges between EC and one of his friends that included a photo of the weapon and was captioned WTTE "My new baby..." I believe that was at night and in the photo the gun was sitting on a piece of furniture in EC's "main" bedroom?
Considering the relatively short duration between purchase and the shootings:
Does anyone recall what night that was? The 29th?
If so: EC told one of the therapists that he had accessed the gun by getting up early on the morning of the 30th. Maybe all he needed at that time was to source some of the ammunition? Maybe he was loading clips early that morning?

IDK and as applicable JMO...

 

[Izzylizzy]

I cannot find the specific reference at the moment, but I recall there were SM exchanges between EC and one of his friends that included a photo of the weapon and was captioned WTTE "My new baby..." I believe that was at night and in the photo the gun was sitting on a piece of furniture in EC's "main" bedroom?
Considering the relatively short duration between purchase and the shootings:
Does anyone recall what night that was? The 29th?
If so: EC told one of the therapists that he had accessed the gun by getting up early on the morning of the 30th. Maybe all he needed at that time was to source some of the ammunition? Maybe he was loading clips early that morning?

IDK and as applicable JMO...

• Friday, November 26th:
• 
  
• Ethan’s father James Crumbley purchased a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol from a shooting goods store on Black Friday. The store employee confirms that Ethan was present when James bought the gun.
• 
  
• Later that day Ethan posted a photo on social media with the caption, “Just got my new baby today. SIG SAUER 9mm,” the post ended with a heart emoji.

Oxford High School Shooting

It is another somber day in America after hearing about the latest school shooting. With the ongoing pandemic looming over our heads, it feels like a low blow to be hit with such a tragic event.

www.linkedin.com

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Jury foreperson in Jennifer Crumbley case says she failed to 'secure' the gun used in the mass shooting from her son

Jennifer Crumbley, 45, was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the deadly school shooting her then-15-year-old son carried out in 2021.

www.nbcnews.com

The jury foreperson in the trial of Jennifer Crumbley said the guilty verdict wasn't immediately unanimous, but evidence presented in trial including her son's notebook writings played a "huge part."

Crumbley was convicted of all four counts of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday, with the jury holding her criminally responsible for the shooting carried out by her son, Ethan Crumbley, at Oxford High School on Nov. 30, 2021.

It was an unprecedented, unanimous decision as it marked the first time in the United States that a parent has been held responsible for their child carrying out a mass school shooting...

 

[MrsWatson]

Does anyone think that the outcome might have been different if JC had not testified?

I think her testimony was very detrimental to her. She contradicted herself several times. I don't feel like she came across as sincere or remorseful. And saying she wouldn't do anything differently shows she doesn't feel she did anything wrong, anyway. No apology for the affair, very nonchalant about meeting a guy in the Costco parking lot to fool around, like that's a normal thing.

I don't think it would have made a difference if she hadn't testified, though. All the evidence is already there. She just confirmed it with her own words.

MOO

 

[cottonweaver]

Columbine Dad doesn't think in his case that the parents should have faced the same consequences.

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[RickshawFan]

Good post.
Smith said your kitchen knives could get you criminally charged if your kid takes one and kills (injures?) someone.
A TV lawyer talking head was talking about a baseball bat being the weapon and the parent is charged.
The stupidity here is a kid doesn't have to be 18 or 21 to purchase or use with parental/adult restrictions a kitchen knife or a baseball bat.

The Crumbley case doesn't necessarily lead to that conclusion, although talking heads are making it sound as though it does. Key here was the degree of neglect, and Jennifer's egregious inability to answer her son's cries for help.

But, if your child is into knives and using them for weaponage, plus you so neglect them that they stab themselves to death, yep, that's on you. IMO. Note here "you" = random parent.

You keep the matches away from your children if they show a fascination for fire. It's called "being a parent".

And if you're concerned about what a teen might do with a baseball bat because they say they have strange things going in their head, you get a referral to a psych professional.

 

[cottonweaver]

old link again - but new to me details

and themes which link back to WS posts querying whether EC was always violent

• The owner of a Michigan diner where teenage school shooter Ethan Crumbley worked says he seemed normal
• • Nicole Ellsworth, owner of the 5-1 Diner, said Crumbley was a good employee
  • 'Here, he was always polite. He'd say "Miss Nicole" and ask me how my day was — things of that nature. Never once saw him angry or violent,'
  • • The 15-year-old began working at the diner last year ( 2020) , however, he only ended up working 'eight or nine' times after the onset of the COVID pandemic
    • However, Ellsworth said she heard from others that Crumbley's parents left him home 'a lot,' and that he didn't have 'many friends.'
      According to Ellsworth, Crumbley 'talked to the kids' from Oxford High, where he was a freshman, who either worked at or visited the restaurant, however 'they didn't really know him.'
      
      'They didn't know he went to Oxford,' she said.
      
      Ellsworth added that Crumbley's brother, Eli, also worked at the South Washington Street diner before moving to Florida to live with his mother. Ellsworth added that she feels 'so guilty that none of us noticed anything was odd,' while noting an incident about a year before the shooting that she had with his parents after Crumbley injured himself on the job.
    • Security camera footage from the diner on September 20, 2020 obtained by the Daily Mail shows Crumbley as he falls in the diner's kitchen before hitting his head.
      
      She immediately called his parents after the incident, who told her that their son 'doesn't eat much.' ( missing from the link is the comment from the owner that Jennifer told the owner not to call 911 after he inexplicable fell and hit his head)
    • Ellsworth stated that she doesn't believe Crumbley was 'always a monster' from her experiences working with him, and doubts he would have pulled it off without his parents help.
      
      'But it doesn't really look like that's what happened,' she said.
      
      'I would hate to speculate but…I don't think he was always a monster. I think the parents had a lot to do with it. I think, during COVID, he was isolated, and…whatever they did, buying that gun for him…that's child abuse, in my opinion.'
    • 
      
    • Eli Crumbley, Ethan's older half-brother who had previously worked at the same diner, was once caught with marijuana at the job and hinted that his father and stepmother had given it to him, the diner's manager told DailyMail.com.
      ( potential witnesses at James's trial, as linked by @Izzylizzy
      
      
    • 
      
      

      Owner of diner where Ethan Crumbley worked says he seemed normal

      The owner of a Michigan diner where 'school shooter' Ethan Crumbley worked says he seemed normal, despite recently being charged after a shooting last month that left four dead.

      www.dailymail.co.uk

march 2020 - ' family turmoil' ( photo of Eli & Ethan together at link)
' Eli and Ethan have the same father, but different mothers. Originally from Florida, the two boys later moved to Oxford with their dad James Crumbley and his second wife, Ethan's mom, Jennifer.

The older brother hinted at some family turmoil that prompted him to abruptly move out ( of the Crumbley's in MI) in March 2020. He went to live with his biological mother in Florida where he grew up'

Ethan Crumbley is seen collapsing while working at a diner last year

Footage, obtained exclusively by DailyMail.com, shows 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley stumbling into the back room of the 5-1 Diner in Oxford before collapsing, last September.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Odeto BJ]

• Friday, November 26th:
• 
  
• Ethan’s father James Crumbley purchased a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol from a shooting goods store on Black Friday. The store employee confirms that Ethan was present when James bought the gun.
• 
  
• Later that day Ethan posted a photo on social media with the caption, “Just got my new baby today. SIG SAUER 9mm,” the post ended with a heart emoji.

Oxford High School Shooting

It is another somber day in America after hearing about the latest school shooting. With the ongoing pandemic looming over our heads, it feels like a low blow to be hit with such a tragic event.

www.linkedin.com

Thanks for that, Izzy. I knew I'd seen the photo and the text from IG but could not find them when the thought struck me...
So forget my speculation about EC already having the gun prior to 0500 Nov 30/ PN 503 Above

 

[Odeto BJ]

Michigan law would make not maintaining parental control over accessibility of a firearm a felony whether the offspring used the gun for nefarious purposes or not. There will be some interesting bridges to cross, legally, if that gets to court for some reason that does not involve a shooting....As for instance, police get a warrant because they believe there are stolen goods in the house, meanwhile you have a blackpowder flintlock with a 40 inch barrel resting on brackets above your fireplace. There is no ammunition available for the gun; there is no blackpowder in your household; and the gun has not been shot in 90 years. Are the police going to pursue charges based on the new felony law? Does the answer change if the gun weighs 30 lbs and is 7 feet above the floor and your oldest child is 7? Does it change if there is no flint in the hammer? What if, there was no warrant to search your house but your neighbor reported the gun as exposed/ available?

And besides the baseball bat and the kitchen knife: What is the legal expectation concerning a cross bow or a compound bow? A long bow? A sling shot? An artesan sword? Any antiquity that was at one time a weapon?

It is what it is, but it ain't over til its over.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Jennifer Crumbley’s lawyer bizarrely tells court about own lack of showering

Shannon Smith, Ms Crumbley’s defence attorney, sought to compare their parenting styles – with a bizarre statement

www.the-independent.com

Jennifer Crumbley’s lawyer told the court about her own lack of showering in a bizarre defence of the school shooter’s mother, during closing arguments on Friday.

Ms Crumbley is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter after her son fatally shot four of his classmates in November 2021. She has pleaded not guilty to the charges.

In closing arguments, defence attorney Shannon Smith detailed a series of snapshots into her own personal life as a “messy” working mother-of-four in an effort to relate to her client and suggest that she easily could have ended up in “Mrs Crumbley’s shoes”.

“I say ‘sorry’ a lot,” Ms Smith said, and referred to a TikTok video that apparently shows the attorney apologising throughout the trial.

The attorney told the court that she messes up a lot because “I’m human — and so is Mrs Crumbley”.

The defendant is “not a perfect person or a perfect parent,” she said, and neither is she...

 

[Gardenista]

Columbine Dad doesn't think in his case that the parents should have faced the same consequences.

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He's worried.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Father of Justin Shilling: Jennifer Crumbley conviction is step toward accountability

The father of a teenager who was murdered in the 2021 Oxford High School shooting said Tuesday that the jury’s conviction of the shooter’s mother is a step toward accountability.

www.clickondetroit.com

OXFORD, Mich. – The father of a teenager who was murdered in the 2021 Oxford High School shooting said Tuesday that the jury’s conviction of the shooter’s mother is a step toward accountability.

Craig Shilling, father of Justin Shilling, a student who was killed in the shooting, was one of the family members who attended the trial of Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the Oxford shooter. Both the shooter’s mother and father were charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter for the four students murdered by their son on Nov. 30, 2021.

It’s the first time in U.S. history that parents of a school shooter have been charged in connection with the shooting. Craig Shilling was also present for the landmark verdict read by the jury on Tuesday, Feb. 6, declaring Jennifer Crumbley guilty of all four counts.

“We have been asking for accountability across the board, and this is ... one step toward that,” Craig Shilling told the media after the verdict was read. “I feel that moving forward is gonna not necessarily be any easier because of what we left behind, but it gives us hope for a brighter future.”...

 

[Bounceycat]

He's worried.

What about this worries him? He's a victim's father, not the father of one of the perpetrators.