GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[Boodles]

Does anyone think that the outcome might have been different if JC had not testified?

IDK, but she didn’t do herself any favors. She was disagreeable and, in my view, lied repeatedly. She couldn’t even fake caring about her son. Her true colors came through as being self-absorbed and disingenuous.

 

[Cool Cats]

Juror breaks silence on Jennifer Crumbley's guilty verdict

Crumbley was convicted of four counts of involuntary manslaughter, one for each student killed by her son at a Michigan school.

www.newsweek.com

The foreperson told the Today show on Wednesday that the jury's decision was not immediately unanimous.

Foreperson:

For me, I just feel like Jennifer didn't separate her son from the gun enough to save those lives that day.
She said Crumbley was the last person known to have had custody of the gun before her son used it in the shooting.

And I think the responsibility of securing the weapon then falls on her. I think that there are many small things that could have been done to prevent this.

The gun was the most impactful to her but Ethan's notebook played a huge part for other jurors.

Jennifer was not a super-reliable witness and it was very upsetting to hear she wouldn't have done anything different. This was repeated a lot in the deliberation room.

 

[Gardenista]

What about this worries him? He's a victim's father, not the father of one of the perpetrators.

TY, I wasn't aware.

 

[Cool Cats]

Does anyone think that the outcome might have been different if JC had not testified?

No, see my above post - her testimony tanked with the jury but this isn't why she was convicted.

 

[Chelly]

It was all about the gun.

As @Cool Cats posted above, jurors stated that after going over all evidence they decided to make their decision based on the gun. Jurors said the last adult to be in possession of the gun was JC. She didn't secure the weapon, thus making it available to the shooter, a minor child, and placing responsibility on her.

 

[Cool Cats]

It was all about the gun.

As @Cool Cats posted above, jurors stated that after going over all evidence they decided to make their decision based on the gun. Jurors said the last adult to be in possession of the gun was JC. She didn't secure the weapon, thus making it available to the shooter, a minor child, and placing responsibility on her.

So this is interesting.

That James was not the last person to use the gun so will the jury let him off?

How much ya wanna bet that James will say that he thought Jennifer secured the gun after using it, even if not true. I do not think his attorney will let the jury hear that he was suppose to secure it, even if true.

He can say that he locked it up after purchasing it but it was Jennifer who unlocked it, used it, then didn't lock it back up.

If this defense is used and there are no incriminating text messages, I wonder if he will not be convicted?

 

[texaslb218]

Jennifer Crumbley’s lawyer bizarrely tells court about own lack of showering

Shannon Smith, Ms Crumbley’s defence attorney, sought to compare their parenting styles – with a bizarre statement

www.the-independent.com

Jennifer Crumbley’s lawyer told the court about her own lack of showering in a bizarre defence of the school shooter’s mother, during closing arguments on Friday.

Ms Crumbley is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter after her son fatally shot four of his classmates in November 2021. She has pleaded not guilty to the charges.

In closing arguments, defence attorney Shannon Smith detailed a series of snapshots into her own personal life as a “messy” working mother-of-four in an effort to relate to her client and suggest that she easily could have ended up in “Mrs Crumbley’s shoes”.

“I say ‘sorry’ a lot,” Ms Smith said, and referred to a TikTok video that apparently shows the attorney apologising throughout the trial.

The attorney told the court that she messes up a lot because “I’m human — and so is Mrs Crumbley”.

The defendant is “not a perfect person or a perfect parent,” she said, and neither is she...

Your examples are spot-on and shameful.

BetteDavis are you British? Just asking.

 

[Chelly]

So this is interesting.

That James was not the last person to use the gun so will the jury let him off?

How much ya wanna bet that James will say that he thought Jennifer secured the gun after using it, even if not true. I do not think his attorney will let the jury hear that he was suppose to secure it, even if true.

He can say that he locked it up after purchasing it but it was Jennifer who unlocked it, used it, then didn't lock it back up.?

If this defense is used and there are no incriminating text messages, I wonder if he will not be convicted?

Yup, I expect totally different trial strategy in James' trial. Lawyers will put their own spin on it. I think James' chances with a jury are much better than Jennifer's were. Defense may play him as something of a Dufus. imo

 

[BrownRice]

IDK, but she didn’t do herself any favors. She was disagreeable and, in my view, lied repeatedly. She couldn’t even fake caring about her son. Her true colors came through as being self-absorbed and disingenuous.

Right. She could have sobbed and talked lovingly about him (to show warmth and emotion) , while adding her grief over what he did and acknowledged the kids killed. When asked if she would have done anything differently:Yes, of course! I think about this everyday of my life and wish I could go back….

But the “no” to that question. Shocking.

 

[DFWNF]

easier if WS-ers can hear what he said?
starts at 4.15

Foreseeability of risk of harm. what JC was aware of before she attended the meeting with the counsellors.

In the conversation with Bryan before she rushed to the school, she already foresaw the risk 'he'd do something dumb' and B replied to her immediately wtte of where's the gun?
After JC had this conversation with Bryan, did ' hyper-vigilant' JC go check her car before she headed to OHS in the parking lot at work? Possibly, but it makes the post too long if I get into that.

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Just to add that this is the kind of critical detail & direct evidence that the talking heads on TV and the lawtubers on YT also probably missed but I guess the jurors would've caught ( also why it tends to be mentioned more often on WS or on sites where people had to sit through the - imo pain in the A - messy trial interrupted by endless speaking objections, whining and delays. Again imo, the jury was so professional to put up with so much Cr.. )

Hi, what does wtte mean? Thank you.

 

[Sundog]

The JFP comes across as very confident. Maybe she volunteered when nobody else stepped up right away. I am not sure what to make of her speaking to the media so quickly. I also do not know what to make of her statement about Jennifer being the last person to have the gun so therefore she is guilty.

Some people really like and want the media spotlight. Makes you wonder.

 

[Cedars]

So this is interesting.

That James was not the last person to use the gun so will the jury let him off?

How much ya wanna bet that James will say that he thought Jennifer secured the gun after using it, even if not true. I do not think his attorney will let the jury hear that he was suppose to secure it, even if true.

He can say that he locked it up after purchasing it but it was Jennifer who unlocked it, used it, then didn't lock it back up.

If this defense is used and there are no incriminating text messages, I wonder if he will not be convicted?

Prosecutors may have other evidence, which wasn't introduced at this trial, with what he did do with it, and that was also inadequate.

But also, his responsibility in buying the gun.

JMO

 

[LMDlong]

So this is interesting.

That James was not the last person to use the gun so will the jury let him off?

How much ya wanna bet that James will say that he thought Jennifer secured the gun after using it, even if not true. I do not think his attorney will let the jury hear that he was suppose to secure it, even if true.

He can say that he locked it up after purchasing it but it was Jennifer who unlocked it, used it, then didn't lock it back up.

If this defense is used and there are no incriminating text messages, I wonder if he will not be convicted?

I don’t think he will get off at all. His big mistake was buying the gun for EC.

 

[Weki]

The JFP comes across as very confident. Maybe she volunteered when nobody else stepped up right away. I am not sure what to make of her speaking to the media so quickly. I also do not know what to make of her statement about Jennifer being the last person to have the gun so therefore she is guilty.

I’m also really confused about her decision to go all the way to the Today show to be interviewed when it was clear she wanted to be extra careful about what she said. She already said the same thing outside the courthouse. She didn’t add anything substantive so why do the Today interview. Her BRIEF comment about JC being the last adult with the gun was more confusing than illuminating. She should’ve been able to clearly articulate her position for Guilt if she wants to speak out. People sometimes have unconscious motives and it looks confusing from the outside. Im sure it’s really tempting to be on a high profile case where the media is so eager to speak to you. JMO

 

[Bounceycat]

I’m also really confused about her decision to go all the way to the Today show to be interviewed when it was clear she wanted to be extra careful about what she said. She already said the same thing outside the courthouse. She didn’t add anything substantive so why do the Today interview. Her BRIEF comment about JC being the last adult with the gun was more confusing than illuminating. She should’ve been able to clearly articulate her position for Guilt if she wants to speak out. People sometimes have unconscious motives and it looks confusing from the outside. Im sure it’s really tempting to be on a high profile case where the media is so eager to speak to you. JMO

Morning shows don't pay for appearances but I'm pretty sure they paid her airfare and hotel - free trip to NYC! And she insisted on not using her last name.

 

[Luna20]

re that long post with clips on this page and this question:


What about this scenario for Nov 30th?


C gets call from school
JC calls Bryan - do something stupid, gun in car ( detailed in the previous post)
What happens next?
Scenario: she checks her car in the lot before heading to OHS, gun isn't there. Next she tells James it’s not there. James replies that it will be at home and he'll check for it later .
Jennifer thinks - We can’t ask him now because if I search his bag and he has it, he’ll get suspended. It’s probably at home. Important to ' not get caught.' This is why they didn't check the back pack, but they just hoped it was at home despite realising it wasn't still in the car ( spare tyre box)


They attend OHS meeting. 12 mins. They leave at 11.16am..ish?
She goes back to work. James by phone logs onto door dashes so he doesn’t immediately go home and check if the gun is there.

12.51pm Police said Ethan opened fire inside Oxford High School
1:37 p.m. James returned home after learning of the active shooter situation at his son's school and dialled 911 ‘ 'I think my son took the gun,' Crumbley says
( around the same time, before either have been told the shooter is EC, she speaks with James.
She also texted Smith to say 'the gun is gone and so are the bullets' and other frantic texts followed, including: 'Omg Andy, he's going to kill himself. He must be the shooter.' )


Part of the 911 call, rest at the link
911 OPERATOR: 911 what is the location of your emergency?

JAMES CRUMBLEY: I am not really sure. I am at my house. There is an active shooter situation going on at the high school. My son goes to the high school. I have a missing gun at my house. I need an officer to come to my house right away please.

911 OPERATOR: OK, I am not going to be able to send anybody to your house right now, sir. They are on the active shooter situation right now.

JAMES CRUMBLEY: I understand that. There's a million cops there. I have a missing gun and my son is at the school. And we had to go meet with the counselor this morning because of something that he wrote on a test paper and then I was in town and I saw a whole bunch of cops going somewhere. And I made sure … I wanted to get to the high school to see if something was going on at the high school. And then somebody told me that there was an active shooter and then I raced home just to like find out and I think my son took the gun. I don’t know if it’s him. I don’t know what’s going on. I am really freaking out. My son’s name is Ethan Crumbley. C-R-U-M-B-L-E-Y.

911 call made by school shooter Ethan Crumbley's dad played in court

James Crumbley called 911 45 minutes after the shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan to report that his gun was missing, that he thought his son had taken it, and that he was 'freaking out.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

'I saw a whole bunch of cops going somewhere. And I made sure .....'
made sure of what

‘C gets call from school’. Who is C?

 

[Luna20]

Now that I'm like a doggie with a bone on the van der Kolk stuff....

I've wondered why Ethan does bowling. His father mentions it in a text, yes? I can't make it fit with anything else. So, he's not at all into horses (which incidentally have been shown to be helpful with some "difficult" kids), rowing, karate, or polo, or lacrosse. So, what is the bowling thing? To me, bowling....I'm useless with the ball. But the one thing I do know about bowling alleys, they're noisy. And it's a particular kind of noisy. It's crashy and rhythmic. You hear the ball drop on the wood floor, then a kind of roll-y noise until it reaches the pins, then the sound of the pins being knocked out, then the machine setting them upright, then the ball rolling back to you and re-racking. 10 lanes or so of that.

Imagine if you were a kid with a lot of disorganized noise in your head (doesn't matter if you have a formal diagnosis of psychotic, just that you experience the universe this way), as Ethan does. But bowling gives you organized crashiness. And it would have meaning (namely the goal is to knock out pins). If I were that kind of kid, I could totally see myself wanting to be at the bowling alley. It would in a way organize the craziness in my brain.

This is just speculation on my part, but I do wonder about the bowling.

That’s a very accurate and precise description of the bowling alley. I have sensory issues and just reading this makes me feel a twinge. Loud frenetic noise and crowds are high on my list to avoid. I’m curious though of your point about how this would feel for someone like Ethan.

 

[Lilibet]

‘C gets call from school’. Who is C?

JC. I think the apostrophe is a typo.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Your examples are spot-on and shameful.

BetteDavis are you British? Just asking.

Michigan born and bred. My dad's ancestors were Scottish.

 

[Luna20]

JC. I think the apostrophe is a typo.

Thanks! I wouldn’t have thought that.