GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

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  • #621
JMO: They have plenty to show James is just as responsible for the entire situation. He was parent #2 for Ethan's entire childhood, would have also known about his difficulties (academic, social, emotional), still literally bought him a gun, attended the same school meeting/saw the same drawing/also chose to walk out of it without taking any action, didn't change the code on the safe from its default so knew Ethan could access the guns, etc. etc.

Can't assume in court, they need evidence to show he knew Ethan had mental problems. For Jennifer it was the text messages and notebook to show she knew. For James there might be no text messages.

I think the safe was for the other 2 guns they owned not for the new gun. Would need a link to verify.

2 Cents
 
  • #622
"The Legality of Jury Nullification. According to the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Sparf v. U.S., written by Justice Harlan, juries have no right to ignore the law when rendering the jury's verdict. However, nullification still occurs in some instances because of the secrecy of jury deliberations."Oct 16, 2023

Jury Nullification in Theory and Application​

Jury nullification occurs when jurors believe in the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but exercise the jury's power to acquit. They might feel that the defendant doesn't deserve to be punished under unjust laws.

Under this theory, the average citizen chosen for a jury can override the statutes passed by the legislature.

Sometimes, nullification is a tool that juries can use to set aside a law they believe is immoral or wrongly applied to a particular case. For example, in the 1800s, Congress passed stringent fugitive slave laws that compelled citizens of all states to assist law enforcement with apprehending suspected runaway slaves.

Known as the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, the law included large fines for anyone who aided an enslaved person in an escape, even by simply giving the person food or shelter. Abolitionists used the jury system to voice their protest by refusing to convict in these cases, thereby "nullifying" the law on moral grounds. The law still existed on the books but was difficult to enforce.

In other examples, juries refused to enforce alcohol prohibition laws and drug laws that they disagreed with, even if they violated the letter of the law. Jurors have also refused to convict a defendant who appeared sympathetic or created an emotional conflict despite the clear evidence of guilt.

In other contexts, a jury might refuse to convict out of concern for the consequences of a conviction or an unwillingness to see a minimum sentence imposed. In these examples, the jurors violate their oaths and abdicate their responsibilities.

Critics argue that the jury is a weakness in the criminal justice system. Others argue that the human element shows the system is working as intended — that it is more likely to acquit the guilty than to convict the innocent.

'The Legality of Jury Nullification'​




Jury Nullification - FindLaw
https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-procedure/jury-nullification.html#:~:text=The Legality of Jury Nullification,the secrecy of jury deliberations.
FindLaw
https://www.findlaw.com › ... › Criminal Procedur
ACLU on advocacy related to jury nullification -


ACLU Michigan on jury nullifcation advocacy and ruling by Michigan Supreme Court

 
  • #623
When questioning the Acme Shooting Goods saleswoman who sold James the handgun Marc Keast showed the evidence that it was a "straw purchase" and then both parents gifted the gun to their son for Christmas.

As I recall James has not been charged with the straw purchase so it will be interesting to see how the state addresses this fact during his trial and if Keast enters the same straw purchase evidence that he did at JC's trial.
Legally James was the owner of an illegally purchased firearm and the the felony charge for that is a stiff one.



"Current law prohibits and imposes penaltiesa fine, a prison term of up to 10 years, or both—for making false statements in connection with the acquisition of a firearm from a federally licensed dealer."

STOP Straw Purchases Act 117th Congress (2021-2022)


Congress.gov
https://www.congress.gov › bill › house-bil

Did he say in court specifically that it was a straw purchase? Did the defense counter it?
 
  • #624
Did he say in court specifically that it was a straw purchase? Did the defense counter it?
Keast showed the evidence/paper that James filled out when purchasing the handgun.
I don't remember how it was worded but James checked the box that the gun was for him and not anyone else.
Acme Shooting Goods is being sued in civil court by parents/victims(?) claiming that the salesperson knew that the gun was being bought for EC, a claim the salesperson denied on the stand.
I'll look for her testimony, don't remember what took place with Smith but there was nothing to counter it with,James signed it.
 
  • #625
Did he say in court specifically that it was a straw purchase? Did the defense counter it?
@11:23 document with James's checked boxes
@15:28 Smith, JC's signature not on anything for gun and was never seen by witness in store etc.

 
  • #626
ACLU on advocacy related to jury nullification -


ACLU Michigan on jury nullifcation advocacy and ruling by Michigan Supreme Court

The court ruled on the "pamphlets" the 2 men were handing out as "free speech" nor were they referring to any specific case while handing them out in front of the courthouse.

 
  • #627
Keast showed the evidence/paper that James filled out when purchasing the handgun.
I don't remember how it was worded but James checked the box that the gun was for him and not anyone else.
Acme Shooting Goods is being sued in civil court by parents/victims(?) claiming that the salesperson knew that the gun was being bought for EC, a claim the salesperson denied on the stand.
I'll look for her testimony, don't remember what took place with Smith but there was nothing to counter it with,James signed it.

Parents buy guns for their kids in Michigan. The law says kids can't buy them but there is no law that says a parent can't give their kid a gun as long as the parent purchased it.

100's of parents buy their kids guns and I bet all of them put that it is their gun.
 
  • #628
Parents buy guns for their kids in Michigan. The law says kids can't buy them but there is no law that says a parent can't give their kid a gun as long as the parent purchased it.

100's of parents buy their kids guns and I bet all of them put that it is their gun.
The problem may be that it was a 9mm semi-automatic handgun and I think handgun laws for minors may be different for minors in Michigan then a firearm for hunting?
 
  • #629
Parents buy guns for their kids in Michigan. The law says kids can't buy them but there is no law that says a parent can't give their kid a gun as long as the parent purchased it.

100's of parents buy their kids guns and I bet all of them put that it is their gun.
Is Acme Shooting Goods a "federally licensed dealer"?

Notes
1. A person who is eighteen or older, but under 21, may purchase a handgun, but not from a federally licensed dealer who is prohibited from selling a handgun to anyone younger than 21.

 
  • #630
Is Acme Shooting Goods a "federally licensed dealer"?

Notes
1. A person who is eighteen or older, but under 21, may purchase a handgun, but not from a federally licensed dealer who is prohibited from selling a handgun to anyone younger than 21.

Yep!


 
  • #631
Could James's defense be that as the owner of the handgun he never gave it to EC as a Christmas gift as JC and EC claimed on social media?

The woman who sold James the gun said it was paid for in cash and EC said at his sentencing that he gave his father the cash for the gun but I don't know if what EC claimed can be used as evidence at James's trial?
 
  • #632
When questioning the Acme Shooting Goods saleswoman who sold James the handgun Marc Keast showed the evidence that it was a "straw purchase" and then both parents gifted the gun to their son for Christmas.

As I recall James has not been charged with the straw purchase so it will be interesting to see how the state addresses this fact during his trial and if Keast enters the same straw purchase evidence that he did at JC's trial.
Legally James was the owner of an illegally purchased firearm and the the felony charge for that is a stiff one.



"Current law prohibits and imposes penaltiesa fine, a prison term of up to 10 years, or both—for making false statements in connection with the acquisition of a firearm from a federally licensed dealer."

STOP Straw Purchases Act 117th Congress (2021-2022)


Congress.gov
https://www.congress.gov › bill › house-bil

That bill never actually passed, and under today's laws, there's a difference between being a "straw purchaser" and an "illegal straw purchaser."

Parents are legally (depending on the state) allowed to buy guns for their kids. For the gun purchase to have been illegal, James would have had to lie on the federal questions. I don't know if he did or not, but so far, no one is accusing him of that.

It was legal for James to buy the gun for Ethan. But, it was also stupid.
 
  • #633
That bill never actually passed, and under today's laws, there's a difference between being a "straw purchaser" and an "illegal straw purchaser."

Parents are legally (depending on the state) allowed to buy guns for their kids. For the gun purchase to have been illegal, James would have had to lie on the federal questions. I don't know if he did or not, but so far, no one is accusing him of that.

It was legal for James to buy the gun for Ethan. But, it was also stupid.
A legal "straw purchase" involves the person who is receiving the firearm from the buyer to also fill out a form.
Even if James had done so it is illegal for a minor/under 18 to own a handgun in Michigan and he would have been turned down.
Also Acme is federally licensed so they can not sell a handgun to anyone under 21.
He did lie on the form as presented as evidence by Keast during Acme salesperson's testimony.
 
  • #634
A legal "straw purchase" involves the person who is receiving the firearm from the buyer to also fill out a form.
Even if James had done so it is illegal for a minor/under 18 to own a handgun in Michigan and he would have been turned down.
Also Acme is federally licensed so they can not sell a handgun to anyone under 21.
He did lie on the form as presented as evidence by Keast during Acme salesperson's testimony.
I think -- MOO -- the law allows minors to "possess" firearms in certain situations and I would be willing to bet that many parents in MI purchase firearms (mostly hunting rifles) for their minor children.

To date -- I've not heard evidence that the gun was purchased illegally. If it was, that would fall on the seller, and most who hold FFL licenses, bend over backward to dot all the i's and cross the t's.
 
  • #635
That bill never actually passed, and under today's laws, there's a difference between being a "straw purchaser" and an "illegal straw purchaser."

Parents are legally (depending on the state) allowed to buy guns for their kids. For the gun purchase to have been illegal, James would have had to lie on the federal questions. I don't know if he did or not, but so far, no one is accusing him of that.

It was legal for James to buy the gun for Ethan. But, it was also stupid.
When James bought the firearm for EC on Nov 26 2021 it was an illegal straw purchase as shown by the form he filled out at Acme that was presented as evidence at JC's trial.
 
  • #636
I think -- MOO -- the law allows minors to "possess" firearms in certain situations and I would be willing to bet that many parents in MI purchase firearms (mostly hunting rifles) for their minor children.

To date -- I've not heard evidence that the gun was purchased illegally. If it was, that would fall on the seller, and most who hold FFL licenses, bend over backward to dot all the i's and cross the t's.

It was purchased illegally for EC by James.

Earlier today I posted the youtube testimony of Acme saleswoman with the timestamp when Keast entered as evidence the form James filled out and the box he checked stating that the gun was for him etc,
 
  • #637
When James bought the firearm for EC on Nov 26 2021 it was an illegal straw purchase as shown by the form he filled out at Acme that was presented as evidence at JC's trial.
Well, I just don't know.

No criminal charges have been filed against Acme, and the only thing I know of is a civil suit that claims the purchase was illegal, but that suit also includes the school district, and I don't think anyone has reached any decisions.

Given that straw purchases can be (and usually are) legal, and given that the community has been out for blood since the shooting occurred, I tend to think if Acme sold a gun illegally, they would have been charged or their FFL license pulled by now.

I suppose the prosecution will present it that way, but I would think a smart defense attorney would counter that claim. Especially if James is not charged with buying the gun illegally.
 
  • #638
Well, I just don't know.

No criminal charges have been filed against Acme, and the only thing I know of is a civil suit that claims the purchase was illegal, but that suit also includes the school district, and I don't think anyone has reached any decisions.

Given that straw purchases can be (and usually are) legal, and given that the community has been out for blood since the shooting occurred, I tend to think if Acme sold a gun illegally, they would have been charged or their FFL license pulled by now.

I suppose the prosecution will present it that way, but I would think a smart defense attorney would counter that claim. Especially if James is not charged with buying the gun illegally.
Acme didn't sell the handgun illegally according to federal laws and Keast made no accusations during the trial that they did.

For a straw purchase to be legal the person receiving/gifted the firearm also needs to also fill out a form and the federally licensed gun store does whatever check on them that's required and we know that James did not make a legal straw purchase and why.

iirc: James can still be charged.
 
  • #639
That bill never actually passed, and under today's laws, there's a difference between being a "straw purchaser" and an "illegal straw purchaser."

Parents are legally (depending on the state) allowed to buy guns for their kids. For the gun purchase to have been illegal, James would have had to lie on the federal questions. I don't know if he did or not, but so far, no one is accusing him of that.

It was legal for James to buy the gun for Ethan. But, it was also stupid.
It's illegal to gift a 15 yr old a handgun and semi-automatic to boot.
For EC to have bought that gun from the federally licensed "Acme Shooting Goods" he would have to be 21 yrs old.
 
  • #640
LANSING, Mich. – Michigan lawmakers passed several new laws and amendments in 2023 that will take effect in 2024.

Making use of the first combined Democratic majority in the state House, Senate and governor’s seat in decades, legislators approved numerous bills from their agenda. Now, laws related to gun safety, minimum wage, LGBTQ+ protections, the “Right to Work” policy, and more will take effect in 2024...

Here’s a breakdown of what to expect (including links to the actual legislation):

Gun safety laws

Following the deadly and horrific mass shootings at Michigan State University in February 2023 -- which occurred just over a year after the deadly mass shooting at Oxford High School in 2021 -- state lawmakers quickly passed a series of bills related to firearms in an effort to address gun violence.

Lawmakers sought to reduce gun violence through a three-pronged approach, approving legislation that establishes a red flag law, requirements for gun storage, and universal background checks on firearm purchases. There were several bills related to each of the topics that all passed and were signed into law by Gov. Whitmer -- apart from one of the five bills related to red flag laws.

Here’s what’s taking effect...
 
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