MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

[Whisper2112]

IMO opinion in every small town I have been in people talk. In cases of missing people in small towns the locals usually know what happened and the police end up working to try and find the body and locate evidence to prove what everyone knows.
I believe that if she took off with friends/acquaintances at the gas station someone would have said they left with her or know who she was with. The fact that the highway is close by gives good odds that someone took her and hit the highway. Sick people have been known to travel long distances to take people. Phillip Garrido was one of those people.

For some reason the police and the FBI seem to be focusing on the family which is another good place to look. We obviously don't know if both parents ever took a polygraph, though those are subject to the questions being asked. it is not unheard of for awful things to happen in family situations as well. The search of the house and property indicates that is where LE was focused. I don't hold much faith in her alive working as a stripper, as those stories pop up as well in missing teenagers cases.

When I tracked down my daughter who was kidnapped by MS13 there had been those rumors that she was working as a stripper. That was not the case. When I rescued her and got her safe it turned out that someone had used a park to lure her away on the promise of playing video games. I have followed and helped on many cases and this one has a lot of questions.

First and most important, I am sorry for what your daughter and you and your family went through that. That sounds horrible, and I am glad you went all the way for your daughter and were able to help her. All my best wishes for healing and a happy future. I know you will all carry it forever. My hope for you is that there is room with that for much joy and fulfillment, love and satisfaction with life.

I have delt with a number of luring cases that were classified as "runaways", though the bulk of them are families of origin or non-custodial parents, or people the child believes is a desirable romantic partner luring kids to run away. Some of those I have been convinced have been for exploitation of some kind. It can take some time for the child to realize what is going on. Police are often not interested in pursuing a case unless the child is willing to say what happened, and they are not often willing, as they still see themselves as allied with the person.

To address the rest of your comment: Oh yeah. I grew up in a small town, and I know how people talk. And the "talk" is almost always wrong.

In grade school, one of the teachers there had a son who was missing. I heard it all. The other kids would repeat what their parents were saying. The son was a runaway, he was a bad kid. He hung out with bad kids. The parents killed him and hid the body, he overdosed and the parents hid the body out of shame, his dad was a weirdo and a creep...when I tell you, I was so confused as a little kid by all this weirdness from people. This teacher was the most open genuine teacher. You could see her heart every day. Just a simple, direct, uncomplicated kindness. She could be strict, but it was always with a thoughtful gentle firmness of someone in control of themselves. She reminded me of Mr. Rogers, in that she felt like a safe adult all the time, not off and on like most adults. Yet people were so quick to believe this crap. Not only to believe it, but some to repeat it with a gleam in their eye that even to this day, I can't describe. These cases spark something in some people that is very unsettling.

Her son was found a year later in the woods. Eventually, it was determined that his best friend had killed him over an argument about a firearm.

Remember the crap talked about the Wetterling family, especially Jacob's dad's religion? It's actually still going on. There are conspiracy websites are still pushing a variety of different weird hybrid theories formed from these rumors.

Remember the rumors and suspicion about the man who lived on the property adjacent to where Jacob was taken? That led to a reporter dogging him on camera through a parking lot demanding to know where Jacob was, among many other humiliations large and small. I know a couple of his students, and one of them told me something to the effect that he had provided a safe place for them in his classroom, but then his safety everywhere was taken away.

Heck, as a teenager, the wrong person saw me at the OBGYN getting seen for a common complaint, and the next thing I knew, my grandma was asking me about rumors that I was pregnant.

If Amy left the gas station with someone, they would not necessarily share that she left with them if they were one of the people who describes being "clueless" that she was missing until they got back to school in the fall. Would a kid necessarily remember a month later that the day they walked down the street chatting with Amy, or happened to run into her was August 5th, the day she went missing? Especially since it wasn't that unusual to run into a friend back in those days and hang out for a while and then wander apart. It wasn't exactly the "playdate" generation. We don't necessarily remember the dates and details of common occurrences.

Another reason someone might not mention Amy going with them from the gas station is that they feel responsible or are responsible for what happened to her, or have fear that they will be implicated somehow. Secrets like that weigh heavy on some people, and not so much on others.

With regards to the search of Amy's house being evidence that they are looking at the family, that isn't what the Maple Grove Police said. As I noted before (but it may have been one of the comments that got nuked by moderators), the police made public statements that the search and digging was part of a "process". In other words, there wasn't really a focus to it. They weren't looking for anything or at anyone specifically. This is consistent with me being in a session on reviving cases at a BCA missing and Murdered Conference shortly before the 2014 search. Several officers from the Maple Grove Police Department were there, and it made me think that they were there for Amy's case. Starting with a thorough re-examination of the places and people closest to the missing using new tools and new best practices was one of the points covered in that session. That made sense to me at the time, and it still does.

With regards to the sighting at the strip club, that may not have been a good tip in your daughter's case. However, the underaged girls that are in those places, and we know that there are still places that have underaged girls working, came from somewhere. They are somebody's missing daughters, even though they weren't yours. In the 1980s, it was a lot easier for clubs to get by with having underaged workers. But just because it isn't as common now is no reason to reject the possibility it could have happened back then. Nobody wants to think that Amy was forced to work in one of those places, but dismissing it out of hand because sometimes similar tips are wrong doesn't make sense. If underaged girls are working in clubs, they are probably someone's missing and exploited daughters.

 

[Leprikawn]

I agree about following every tip. You don't dismiss anything. You look into everything and go down every rabbit hole. That' what I did. I then went back to the park and started hanging out and talking to people. I was getting close when I got a phone call from my daughter. She said "Hey remember me? You wanted to pay for an all nighter and I am available." I said ok where do we meet? She told me the corner to meet her on. I pulled up and she walked ahead of the person who was going to take the money and when she got to my window I grabbed her and pulled her in the car and floored it out of there. There was a Chace and I was able to get away and call the police.
Unfortunately some times the police are not much help and I could see them putting in minimal effort to go investigate a strip club across the nation. But hopefully it was looked at.
As you mentioned the Jacob Wetterling case had so many twists and turns with the neighbor, the surrounding area with pedophiles living close by, and the seminary with other child abuse allegations. I remember most of us on that thread mentioning the other abductions near there that were similar but with most of those victims being turned loose. It ended up that someone finally took DNA off the evidence for one of those rapes and it was able to lead to finding Jacob. Stories like this one with Amy really hits close to home for me and sadly it most likely will not have a happy ending. We also know that whoever took her unless it was an accident probably didn't stop. With the highway so close it could be a person from hundreds of miles away who hit the highway and were gone. Which is highly likely because as mentioned in a small town if someone there had done it there would be some gossip.
Thank you for your kind words regarding my daughter. It was a tough road but she is doing better these days. she was taken when she was 14 and is now 30.

 

[Noirdame79]

Wow. I hate that there are no real answers.

 

[Leprikawn]

I was reading this post by Amy's mother. If this is true and I have no reason to not believe it this isn't dropping the ball this is fumbling it horribly.

 

[Whisper2112]

I was reading this post by Amy's mother. If this is true and I have no reason to not believe it this isn't dropping the ball this is fumbling it horribly.

View attachment 630477

I recommend reading through from the beginning. Amy's sister was on here for a little while too, and had useful stuff to say that was pretty much ignored as well.

 

[Whisper2112]

I recommend reading through from the beginning. Amy's sister was on here for a little while too, and had useful stuff to say that was pretty much ignored as well.

I was reading this post by Amy's mother. If this is true and I have no reason to not believe it this isn't dropping the ball this is fumbling it horribly.

View attachment 630477

About the question of whether or not this casts a pall of incompetence over the entire Maple Grove police department, as suggested by another commenter, I think it is a mistake to discredit all Maple Grove PD investigators and the department as a whole because the dispatcher sent MM home from the gas station.

People should still share information with the Maple Grove Police Department investigators on this case, and they should do so with confidence that it will be handled properly and followed up thoroughly.

I'd like to bring up a couple of things and hope it gets a better reception in this corner of this discussion. My point is that a mistake by a dispatcher and a patrol officer can't discredit ALL of MGPD, as suggested elsewhere.

Osseo, MN where the gas station is located, has its own police department.
Maple Grove, MN, where Amy's house is, has its own police department.
Both cities are in Hennepin county, and are adjacent to one another.
Neither has ever had their own 911 dispatch center. Hennepin County Dispatch handles dispatch for both Osseo and Maple Grove, and AFAIK, has since 911 existed in the area.

To this day, I encounter confusion as to which jurisdiction should respond to a missing child case if the child lives in one jurisdiction and went missing from another jurisdiction, it gets even more complicated if the child is believed to be located in a third jurisdiction.

Based on that information (feel free to check me on it), It would not have been a dispatcher from Maple Grove PD that told Amy's father to go home. It would have been a Hennepin County Sheriff's Office dispatcher.

They may have done so due to that jurisdictional confusion that I mentioned above

Moving on, the fact that so much of the initial report taken by the Maple Grove patrol officer at the home has been contested from the beginning by the family, and appears to contain a number of critical inaccuracies is disappointing.

However, the family went and made a corrected report two days later (initial report on Saturday with patrol, revised report on Monday. I'm still confused as to why we can't see the corrected report since they released the initial report to the public.

My estimation of the judgement of that officer who took the report is not helped by the fact that he made unnecessary and demeaning comments about Amy to a reporter for a newspaper article many years later. Amy's family disputes his public comments on the case as well.

But just because a dispatcher (from another jurisdiction) and a patrol officer (from MGPD) may have done some things wrong, doesn't mean that ALL of the investigators that have worked this case over the last three decades have been incompetent, and all the work of the department is discredited. That would be a real stretch.

People should still share information with the Maple Grove Police Department investigators on this case, and they should do so with confidence that it will be handled properly and followed up thoroughly.

 

[Whisper2112]

Wow. I hate that there are no real answers.

There is an answer. It will be found by seeking and following facts.

 

[BethAnn777]

First and most important, I am sorry for what your daughter and you and your family went through that. That sounds horrible, and I am glad you went all the way for your daughter and were able to help her. All my best wishes for healing and a happy future. I know you will all carry it forever. My hope for you is that there is room with that for much joy and fulfillment, love and satisfaction with life.

I have delt with a number of luring cases that were classified as "runaways", though the bulk of them are families of origin or non-custodial parents, or people the child believes is a desirable romantic partner luring kids to run away. Some of those I have been convinced have been for exploitation of some kind. It can take some time for the child to realize what is going on. Police are often not interested in pursuing a case unless the child is willing to say what happened, and they are not often willing, as they still see themselves as allied with the person.

To address the rest of your comment: Oh yeah. I grew up in a small town, and I know how people talk. And the "talk" is almost always wrong.

In grade school, one of the teachers there had a son who was missing. I heard it all. The other kids would repeat what their parents were saying. The son was a runaway, he was a bad kid. He hung out with bad kids. The parents killed him and hid the body, he overdosed and the parents hid the body out of shame, his dad was a weirdo and a creep...when I tell you, I was so confused as a little kid by all this weirdness from people. This teacher was the most open genuine teacher. You could see her heart every day. Just a simple, direct, uncomplicated kindness. She could be strict, but it was always with a thoughtful gentle firmness of someone in control of themselves. She reminded me of Mr. Rogers, in that she felt like a safe adult all the time, not off and on like most adults. Yet people were so quick to believe this crap. Not only to believe it, but some to repeat it with a gleam in their eye that even to this day, I can't describe. These cases spark something in some people that is very unsettling.

Her son was found a year later in the woods. Eventually, it was determined that his best friend had killed him over an argument about a firearm.

Remember the crap talked about the Wetterling family, especially Jacob's dad's religion? It's actually still going on. There are conspiracy websites are still pushing a variety of different weird hybrid theories formed from these rumors.

Remember the rumors and suspicion about the man who lived on the property adjacent to where Jacob was taken? That led to a reporter dogging him on camera through a parking lot demanding to know where Jacob was, among many other humiliations large and small. I know a couple of his students, and one of them told me something to the effect that he had provided a safe place for them in his classroom, but then his safety everywhere was taken away.

Heck, as a teenager, the wrong person saw me at the OBGYN getting seen for a common complaint, and the next thing I knew, my grandma was asking me about rumors that I was pregnant.

If Amy left the gas station with someone, they would not necessarily share that she left with them if they were one of the people who describes being "clueless" that she was missing until they got back to school in the fall. Would a kid necessarily remember a month later that the day they walked down the street chatting with Amy, or happened to run into her was August 5th, the day she went missing? Especially since it wasn't that unusual to run into a friend back in those days and hang out for a while and then wander apart. It wasn't exactly the "playdate" generation. We don't necessarily remember the dates and details of common occurrences.

Another reason someone might not mention Amy going with them from the gas station is that they feel responsible or are responsible for what happened to her, or have fear that they will be implicated somehow. Secrets like that weigh heavy on some people, and not so much on others.

With regards to the search of Amy's house being evidence that they are looking at the family, that isn't what the Maple Grove Police said. As I noted before (but it may have been one of the comments that got nuked by moderators), the police made public statements that the search and digging was part of a "process". In other words, there wasn't really a focus to it. They weren't looking for anything or at anyone specifically. This is consistent with me being in a session on reviving cases at a BCA missing and Murdered Conference shortly before the 2014 search. Several officers from the Maple Grove Police Department were there, and it made me think that they were there for Amy's case. Starting with a thorough re-examination of the places and people closest to the missing using new tools and new best practices was one of the points covered in that session. That made sense to me at the time, and it still does.

With regards to the sighting at the strip club, that may not have been a good tip in your daughter's case. However, the underaged girls that are in those places, and we know that there are still places that have underaged girls working, came from somewhere. They are somebody's missing daughters, even though they weren't yours. In the 1980s, it was a lot easier for clubs to get by with having underaged workers. But just because it isn't as common now is no reason to reject the possibility it could have happened back then. Nobody wants to think that Amy was forced to work in one of those places, but dismissing it out of hand because sometimes similar tips are wrong doesn't make sense. If underaged girls are working in clubs, they are probably someone's missing and exploited daughters.

@Whisper2112

The boy you mentioned that was killed by his friend, how awful! Does he have a thread here? I’d love to read more about this incident.

 

[Whisper2112]

The boy you mentioned that was killed by his friend, how awful! Does he have a thread here? I’d love to read more about this incident.

There's nothing on here about the missing case or the murder. It was in the seventies. It was solved and there was a conviction. His family went through so much, including mishandling of some of his remains, which also made the news. I have been vague on purpose. His parents are deceased, but his sister is still alive and I'm not sure she needs a resurgence of interest in the case. Families endure that sort of thing because they have to. It is necessary in order to get answers. She has answers. She should also have whatever peace is possible.