MN MN - Amy Pagnac, 13, Osseo, 5 Aug 1989

[Whisper2112]

IMO opinion in every small town I have been in people talk. In cases of missing people in small towns the locals usually know what happened and the police end up working to try and find the body and locate evidence to prove what everyone knows.
I believe that if she took off with friends/acquaintances at the gas station someone would have said they left with her or know who she was with. The fact that the highway is close by gives good odds that someone took her and hit the highway. Sick people have been known to travel long distances to take people. Phillip Garrido was one of those people.

For some reason the police and the FBI seem to be focusing on the family which is another good place to look. We obviously don't know if both parents ever took a polygraph, though those are subject to the questions being asked. it is not unheard of for awful things to happen in family situations as well. The search of the house and property indicates that is where LE was focused. I don't hold much faith in her alive working as a stripper, as those stories pop up as well in missing teenagers cases.

When I tracked down my daughter who was kidnapped by MS13 there had been those rumors that she was working as a stripper. That was not the case. When I rescued her and got her safe it turned out that someone had used a park to lure her away on the promise of playing video games. I have followed and helped on many cases and this one has a lot of questions.

First and most important, I am sorry for what your daughter and you and your family went through that. That sounds horrible, and I am glad you went all the way for your daughter and were able to help her. All my best wishes for healing and a happy future. I know you will all carry it forever. My hope for you is that there is room with that for much joy and fulfillment, love and satisfaction with life.

I have delt with a number of luring cases that were classified as "runaways", though the bulk of them are families of origin or non-custodial parents, or people the child believes is a desirable romantic partner luring kids to run away. Some of those I have been convinced have been for exploitation of some kind. It can take some time for the child to realize what is going on. Police are often not interested in pursuing a case unless the child is willing to say what happened, and they are not often willing, as they still see themselves as allied with the person.

To address the rest of your comment: Oh yeah. I grew up in a small town, and I know how people talk. And the "talk" is almost always wrong.

In grade school, one of the teachers there had a son who was missing. I heard it all. The other kids would repeat what their parents were saying. The son was a runaway, he was a bad kid. He hung out with bad kids. The parents killed him and hid the body, he overdosed and the parents hid the body out of shame, his dad was a weirdo and a creep...when I tell you, I was so confused as a little kid by all this weirdness from people. This teacher was the most open genuine teacher. You could see her heart every day. Just a simple, direct, uncomplicated kindness. She could be strict, but it was always with a thoughtful gentle firmness of someone in control of themselves. She reminded me of Mr. Rogers, in that she felt like a safe adult all the time, not off and on like most adults. Yet people were so quick to believe this crap. Not only to believe it, but some to repeat it with a gleam in their eye that even to this day, I can't describe. These cases spark something in some people that is very unsettling.

Her son was found a year later in the woods. Eventually, it was determined that his best friend had killed him over an argument about a firearm.

Remember the crap talked about the Wetterling family, especially Jacob's dad's religion? It's actually still going on. There are conspiracy websites are still pushing a variety of different weird hybrid theories formed from these rumors.

Remember the rumors and suspicion about the man who lived on the property adjacent to where Jacob was taken? That led to a reporter dogging him on camera through a parking lot demanding to know where Jacob was, among many other humiliations large and small. I know a couple of his students, and one of them told me something to the effect that he had provided a safe place for them in his classroom, but then his safety everywhere was taken away.

Heck, as a teenager, the wrong person saw me at the OBGYN getting seen for a common complaint, and the next thing I knew, my grandma was asking me about rumors that I was pregnant.

If Amy left the gas station with someone, they would not necessarily share that she left with them if they were one of the people who describes being "clueless" that she was missing until they got back to school in the fall. Would a kid necessarily remember a month later that the day they walked down the street chatting with Amy, or happened to run into her was August 5th, the day she went missing? Especially since it wasn't that unusual to run into a friend back in those days and hang out for a while and then wander apart. It wasn't exactly the "playdate" generation. We don't necessarily remember the dates and details of common occurrences.

Another reason someone might not mention Amy going with them from the gas station is that they feel responsible or are responsible for what happened to her, or have fear that they will be implicated somehow. Secrets like that weigh heavy on some people, and not so much on others.

With regards to the search of Amy's house being evidence that they are looking at the family, that isn't what the Maple Grove Police said. As I noted before (but it may have been one of the comments that got nuked by moderators), the police made public statements that the search and digging was part of a "process". In other words, there wasn't really a focus to it. They weren't looking for anything or at anyone specifically. This is consistent with me being in a session on reviving cases at a BCA missing and Murdered Conference shortly before the 2014 search. Several officers from the Maple Grove Police Department were there, and it made me think that they were there for Amy's case. Starting with a thorough re-examination of the places and people closest to the missing using new tools and new best practices was one of the points covered in that session. That made sense to me at the time, and it still does.

With regards to the sighting at the strip club, that may not have been a good tip in your daughter's case. However, the underaged girls that are in those places, and we know that there are still places that have underaged girls working, came from somewhere. They are somebody's missing daughters, even though they weren't yours. In the 1980s, it was a lot easier for clubs to get by with having underaged workers. But just because it isn't as common now is no reason to reject the possibility it could have happened back then. Nobody wants to think that Amy was forced to work in one of those places, but dismissing it out of hand because sometimes similar tips are wrong doesn't make sense. If underaged girls are working in clubs, they are probably someone's missing and exploited daughters.

 

[Leprikawn]

I agree about following every tip. You don't dismiss anything. You look into everything and go down every rabbit hole. That' what I did. I then went back to the park and started hanging out and talking to people. I was getting close when I got a phone call from my daughter. She said "Hey remember me? You wanted to pay for an all nighter and I am available." I said ok where do we meet? She told me the corner to meet her on. I pulled up and she walked ahead of the person who was going to take the money and when she got to my window I grabbed her and pulled her in the car and floored it out of there. There was a Chace and I was able to get away and call the police.
Unfortunately some times the police are not much help and I could see them putting in minimal effort to go investigate a strip club across the nation. But hopefully it was looked at.
As you mentioned the Jacob Wetterling case had so many twists and turns with the neighbor, the surrounding area with pedophiles living close by, and the seminary with other child abuse allegations. I remember most of us on that thread mentioning the other abductions near there that were similar but with most of those victims being turned loose. It ended up that someone finally took DNA off the evidence for one of those rapes and it was able to lead to finding Jacob. Stories like this one with Amy really hits close to home for me and sadly it most likely will not have a happy ending. We also know that whoever took her unless it was an accident probably didn't stop. With the highway so close it could be a person from hundreds of miles away who hit the highway and were gone. Which is highly likely because as mentioned in a small town if someone there had done it there would be some gossip.
Thank you for your kind words regarding my daughter. It was a tough road but she is doing better these days. she was taken when she was 14 and is now 30.

 

[Noirdame79]

Wow. I hate that there are no real answers.

 

[Leprikawn]

I was reading this post by Amy's mother. If this is true and I have no reason to not believe it this isn't dropping the ball this is fumbling it horribly.

 

[Whisper2112]

I was reading this post by Amy's mother. If this is true and I have no reason to not believe it this isn't dropping the ball this is fumbling it horribly.

View attachment 630477

I recommend reading through from the beginning. Amy's sister was on here for a little while too, and had useful stuff to say that was pretty much ignored as well.

 

[Whisper2112]

I recommend reading through from the beginning. Amy's sister was on here for a little while too, and had useful stuff to say that was pretty much ignored as well.

I was reading this post by Amy's mother. If this is true and I have no reason to not believe it this isn't dropping the ball this is fumbling it horribly.

View attachment 630477

About the question of whether or not this casts a pall of incompetence over the entire Maple Grove police department, as suggested by another commenter, I think it is a mistake to discredit all Maple Grove PD investigators and the department as a whole because the dispatcher sent MM home from the gas station.

People should still share information with the Maple Grove Police Department investigators on this case, and they should do so with confidence that it will be handled properly and followed up thoroughly.

I'd like to bring up a couple of things and hope it gets a better reception in this corner of this discussion. My point is that a mistake by a dispatcher and a patrol officer can't discredit ALL of MGPD, as suggested elsewhere.

Osseo, MN where the gas station is located, has its own police department.
Maple Grove, MN, where Amy's house is, has its own police department.
Both cities are in Hennepin county, and are adjacent to one another.
Neither has ever had their own 911 dispatch center. Hennepin County Dispatch handles dispatch for both Osseo and Maple Grove, and AFAIK, has since 911 existed in the area.

To this day, I encounter confusion as to which jurisdiction should respond to a missing child case if the child lives in one jurisdiction and went missing from another jurisdiction, it gets even more complicated if the child is believed to be located in a third jurisdiction.

Based on that information (feel free to check me on it), It would not have been a dispatcher from Maple Grove PD that told Amy's father to go home. It would have been a Hennepin County Sheriff's Office dispatcher.

They may have done so due to that jurisdictional confusion that I mentioned above

Moving on, the fact that so much of the initial report taken by the Maple Grove patrol officer at the home has been contested from the beginning by the family, and appears to contain a number of critical inaccuracies is disappointing.

However, the family went and made a corrected report two days later (initial report on Saturday with patrol, revised report on Monday. I'm still confused as to why we can't see the corrected report since they released the initial report to the public.

My estimation of the judgement of that officer who took the report is not helped by the fact that he made unnecessary and demeaning comments about Amy to a reporter for a newspaper article many years later. Amy's family disputes his public comments on the case as well.

But just because a dispatcher (from another jurisdiction) and a patrol officer (from MGPD) may have done some things wrong, doesn't mean that ALL of the investigators that have worked this case over the last three decades have been incompetent, and all the work of the department is discredited. That would be a real stretch.

People should still share information with the Maple Grove Police Department investigators on this case, and they should do so with confidence that it will be handled properly and followed up thoroughly.

 

[Whisper2112]

Wow. I hate that there are no real answers.

There is an answer. It will be found by seeking and following facts.

 

[BethAnn777]

First and most important, I am sorry for what your daughter and you and your family went through that. That sounds horrible, and I am glad you went all the way for your daughter and were able to help her. All my best wishes for healing and a happy future. I know you will all carry it forever. My hope for you is that there is room with that for much joy and fulfillment, love and satisfaction with life.

I have delt with a number of luring cases that were classified as "runaways", though the bulk of them are families of origin or non-custodial parents, or people the child believes is a desirable romantic partner luring kids to run away. Some of those I have been convinced have been for exploitation of some kind. It can take some time for the child to realize what is going on. Police are often not interested in pursuing a case unless the child is willing to say what happened, and they are not often willing, as they still see themselves as allied with the person.

To address the rest of your comment: Oh yeah. I grew up in a small town, and I know how people talk. And the "talk" is almost always wrong.

In grade school, one of the teachers there had a son who was missing. I heard it all. The other kids would repeat what their parents were saying. The son was a runaway, he was a bad kid. He hung out with bad kids. The parents killed him and hid the body, he overdosed and the parents hid the body out of shame, his dad was a weirdo and a creep...when I tell you, I was so confused as a little kid by all this weirdness from people. This teacher was the most open genuine teacher. You could see her heart every day. Just a simple, direct, uncomplicated kindness. She could be strict, but it was always with a thoughtful gentle firmness of someone in control of themselves. She reminded me of Mr. Rogers, in that she felt like a safe adult all the time, not off and on like most adults. Yet people were so quick to believe this crap. Not only to believe it, but some to repeat it with a gleam in their eye that even to this day, I can't describe. These cases spark something in some people that is very unsettling.

Her son was found a year later in the woods. Eventually, it was determined that his best friend had killed him over an argument about a firearm.

Remember the crap talked about the Wetterling family, especially Jacob's dad's religion? It's actually still going on. There are conspiracy websites are still pushing a variety of different weird hybrid theories formed from these rumors.

Remember the rumors and suspicion about the man who lived on the property adjacent to where Jacob was taken? That led to a reporter dogging him on camera through a parking lot demanding to know where Jacob was, among many other humiliations large and small. I know a couple of his students, and one of them told me something to the effect that he had provided a safe place for them in his classroom, but then his safety everywhere was taken away.

Heck, as a teenager, the wrong person saw me at the OBGYN getting seen for a common complaint, and the next thing I knew, my grandma was asking me about rumors that I was pregnant.

If Amy left the gas station with someone, they would not necessarily share that she left with them if they were one of the people who describes being "clueless" that she was missing until they got back to school in the fall. Would a kid necessarily remember a month later that the day they walked down the street chatting with Amy, or happened to run into her was August 5th, the day she went missing? Especially since it wasn't that unusual to run into a friend back in those days and hang out for a while and then wander apart. It wasn't exactly the "playdate" generation. We don't necessarily remember the dates and details of common occurrences.

Another reason someone might not mention Amy going with them from the gas station is that they feel responsible or are responsible for what happened to her, or have fear that they will be implicated somehow. Secrets like that weigh heavy on some people, and not so much on others.

With regards to the search of Amy's house being evidence that they are looking at the family, that isn't what the Maple Grove Police said. As I noted before (but it may have been one of the comments that got nuked by moderators), the police made public statements that the search and digging was part of a "process". In other words, there wasn't really a focus to it. They weren't looking for anything or at anyone specifically. This is consistent with me being in a session on reviving cases at a BCA missing and Murdered Conference shortly before the 2014 search. Several officers from the Maple Grove Police Department were there, and it made me think that they were there for Amy's case. Starting with a thorough re-examination of the places and people closest to the missing using new tools and new best practices was one of the points covered in that session. That made sense to me at the time, and it still does.

With regards to the sighting at the strip club, that may not have been a good tip in your daughter's case. However, the underaged girls that are in those places, and we know that there are still places that have underaged girls working, came from somewhere. They are somebody's missing daughters, even though they weren't yours. In the 1980s, it was a lot easier for clubs to get by with having underaged workers. But just because it isn't as common now is no reason to reject the possibility it could have happened back then. Nobody wants to think that Amy was forced to work in one of those places, but dismissing it out of hand because sometimes similar tips are wrong doesn't make sense. If underaged girls are working in clubs, they are probably someone's missing and exploited daughters.

@Whisper2112

The boy you mentioned that was killed by his friend, how awful! Does he have a thread here? I’d love to read more about this incident.

 

[Whisper2112]

The boy you mentioned that was killed by his friend, how awful! Does he have a thread here? I’d love to read more about this incident.

There's nothing on here about the missing case or the murder. It was in the seventies. It was solved and there was a conviction. His family went through so much, including mishandling of some of his remains, which also made the news. I have been vague on purpose. His parents are deceased, but his sister is still alive and I'm not sure she needs a resurgence of interest in the case. Families endure that sort of thing because they have to. It is necessary in order to get answers. She has answers. She should also have whatever peace is possible.

 

[amberina10]

It's been quite awhile since I've visited this case. One issue I have is that there is no way they searched all of the farm in just a few days if the reported acreage is correct at 160 acres. Plus, I agree with other posters in the fact that it's been mentioned that the PI, supposedly, found a witness to MM and Amy leaving the farm, but, it's never been mentioned if LE followed up with that witness? You'd think that if LE did follow up and the witness did physically see them, they would have stated this as a verified fact. And, if that tip is true, did the witness in fact see both MM and Amy in the vehicle or just see the vehicle leaving? How far from the vehicle was this supposed witness?
I think Amy either never made it to the farm or if she did, that she never left that farm, at least not alive.
With how long it's been, you would think that LE would speak out about what the actual facts are about her disappearance. I would love for them to utilize Othram labs to analyze Amy's DNA and see if genetic genealogy could be used to track down her biological father.

I want to warn everyone that I don't have much to add to the case except a little info on the farm.

I grew up on the property next to their farm. We actually shared an access road that, after a few miles, split and their property which my family called the "tree farm" was on the left (with a gate) and ours to the right (no gate).

I was 4 years old when Amy went missing and not sure if I have memories of her. I only recall one blurry memory or more like impression of a young girl but I think that was her sister, when the family stopped by to chat. Our families didn't have a close relationship but our parents were cordial and if we were outside and they were headed back, we would wave.

My younger sister and I explored the dense woods behind our house all through the 90s! We even ventured onto their property a few times. I recall a big rusty shed a broken down old car in a clearing surrounded by tall pines. There is so much acreage back there and it's very swampy, or at least was at that time!

The only thing I can add is speculation. It's very remote back there and few people would hear much, we were the closest house, since their acreage and ours is so large it would be near impossible to search especially with all the swamps. I don't even remember if they did a search party situation back there!

Im asking my mom is she remembers anything from that day. So far she said she didn't but she was questioned by LE. I asked her to keep thinking and specifically asked if she, my dad or grandparents saw Amy going in or out that day.

Our family no longer owns the property since around 2006? So I haven't been on it for over 20 years! I think about Amy often and hope one day she is found!

 

[Observer33]

Here is the map from Amy's house to the gas station where she allegedly disappeared from.

Why didn't Marshall Midden just go home since he had to do a #2?? I know...he'd probably say that he just couldn't wait but, really....so close to home? 2.3 miles away from home to be exact.

Google Maps

You should add the location they left in Isanti County. It looks to me like they drove passed their home to go to the gas station to take a dump? Doesn't make sense to me. Did he get gas too? I don't think Amy was in the truck at the gas station. Maybe he went there to dump evidence.

 

[Observer33]

I want to warn everyone that I don't have much to add to the case except a little info on the farm.

I grew up on the property next to their farm. We actually shared an access road that, after a few miles, split and their property which my family called the "tree farm" was on the left (with a gate) and ours to the right (no gate).

I was 4 years old when Amy went missing and not sure if I have memories of her. I only recall one blurry memory or more like impression of a young girl but I think that was her sister, when the family stopped by to chat. Our families didn't have a close relationship but our parents were cordial and if we were outside and they were headed back, we would wave.

My younger sister and I explored the dense woods behind our house all through the 90s! We even ventured onto their property a few times. I recall a big rusty shed a broken down old car in a clearing surrounded by tall pines. There is so much acreage back there and it's very swampy, or at least was at that time!

The only thing I can add is speculation. It's very remote back there and few people would hear much, we were the closest house, since their acreage and ours is so large it would be near impossible to search especially with all the swamps. I don't even remember if they did a search party situation back there!

Im asking my mom is she remembers anything from that day. So far she said she didn't but she was questioned by LE. I asked her to keep thinking and specifically asked if she, my dad or grandparents saw Amy going in or out that day.

Our family no longer owns the property since around 2006? So I haven't been on it for over 20 years! I think about Amy often and hope one day she is found!

What was your address at the farm?

 

[amberina10]

What was your address at the farm?

Is it ok to post it? I don't know who owns the property now

 

[Observer33]

Is it ok to post it? I don't know who owns the property no

I am not sure why it would matter. Or post Amy's farm address.

 

[amberina10]

What was your address at the farm?

I have an aerial view. The red and to the right is our old property you can see the house and barns at the bottom. Behind the house is ALL swamp.

The green line is the access road we took to get back to the woods with swamps on either side of the access road, it often flooded in Spring. To the left would be their property, the yellow circle is, I believe, the metal shed my sister and I saw back there.

 

[amberina10]

I am not sure why it would matter. Or post Amy's farm address.

37675 Verdin St NW, Stanchfield is our old address

 

[amberina10]

You should add the location they left in Isanti County. It looks to me like they drove passed their home to go to the gas station to take a dump? Doesn't make sense to me. Did he get gas too? I don't think Amy was in the truck at the gas station. Maybe he went there to dump evidence.

Google Maps

Here is the possible path which includes starting at the Farm. Are the roads the same since 1989?

I did read somewhere they have receipts for gas.

 

[Observer33]

Amy was not promiscuous, did not drink alcohol, did not do drugs. She was a good person, and a good girl. She was a very caring, forgiving, and gentle person. Please stop telling, and repeating these lies about her. It is very mean and it serves no useful purpose toward finding Amy and bringing her home. She is still a good person and a good young woman. Can you imagine if she happens to read these horrific things, how do you think it is going to make her feel? For the record, we never made those statements to the police officer when he came to our house the day she went missing. And if you read a little further you'll find that the reporter even says we dispute his statement. Her real friends and their parents will also say the same thing, Amy was a very good person and a good girl.

There have been a lot of statements made where things have been left out, and they have been totally incorrect statements on this current thread.

Number 1, Amy and her father stopped at the gas station to get gas, which he got, he paid for the gas, and then went to the bathroom.
Number 2, when they finally started to look for Amy in earnest in 1990, they actually used that receipt to establish the time line, along with interviewing other people, one of which saw Amy and her father leave our house about 11 in the morning, and the neighbor at the farm saw Amy and her father leave the farm that day.
Also in 1990, two private investigators worked on the case with Maple Grove police department, one of which worked to rescue children that were victims of trafficking. It is from him that Lt. Markgraf and our family first learned that both he and his partner had spotted Amy at a strip club. As it was explained to us, this was not a place where children had any choices. Unfortunately, before they could rescue her, according to this investigator, she had been moved to a new location. Trust me, this is the last thing a parent wants to hear.
There were two other sightings, one in Minneapolis by someone who had known her before she had gone missing, and another one out on the west coast at some form of a bus or train station. Lt. Markgraf read from the report and hears what he said it said. A person, who did not leave contact information, stated that they had spoken with a girl that identified herself as Amy Pagnac and the main reason the call was made was they felt that Amy was too young to be with the people she was with. There other reports, but not as reliable as all the information that was in these two. We have not been told of anything since about 1992.

As for the person that called the attention to our landscaping and made some other untrue statements, I suggest that if they think they actually know something, that they go to the police.

Amy's family -- we still want Amy found, please help bring her home.

Unfortunately, before they could rescue her, according to this investigator, she had been moved to a new location. This is plain incompetence by law enforcement. If you see a missing girl - underage at that - in a strip club and don't take custody of her instantly, you are complicit. Hell with any other investigation they were doing, you save the victim. If you aren't LE, i.e. a PI, then call the cops and stay there and maintain visual on the missing girl. Total incompetence.

There were two other sightings, one in Minneapolis by someone who had known her before she had gone missing They knew she was missing and didn't call 911 immediately. Some friend this person was. The world has let Amy down. I hope Amy can be found.