MN - George Floyd, 46, died in police custody, Minneapolis, 25 May 2020 #14 - Chauvin Trial Day 11

[MsBetsy]

I suspect he knew the answers to all the questions, all the experts have to provide reports to the other side before testifying. When the defense presents their own medical experts, I expect to see the counter-argument.

JMO

Do we know how many medical experts are testifying for the defense? I remember seeing some on the list but I don't know how many.

 

[CrimeAway]

I thought I read he had a team of 10 or 12 attorneys assisting him.

That is not the case, IMO.
There are other attorneys who also work for the Minnesota Police and Peace Officers Association, but they are not assigned to this case. MO

ETA corrected name of organization

 

[Factoria]

I suspect he knew the answers to all the questions, all the experts have to provide reports to the other side before testifying. When the defense presents their own medical experts, I expect to see the counter-argument.

JMO

Of course, I have no doubt that we'll hear from medical experts who will offer an opinion more favourable to the Defense's position, and I look forward to hearing that... But, why ask questions of the State's witness that will surely elicit responses that are so clearly damning to their own case? Overall, I think Nelson has been doing a good job, given the hand he's been dealt. But that cross just left me feeling uncomfortable for him.

 

[shotgun09]

IANAD, and I have not been anywhere near a motel since prior to Covid, BUT in the case of clarification, IMO any heart wall/muscle damage that can be seen at autopsy, (or via Angiogram) is caused from a Previous heart attack. Damage occurs over time....just like any muscle in your body. It can only be visible well ( days at least ) after the event, if you live after a heart attack. If GF had any type of Cardiac arrest ( which he did, on 5/25/20 ) the heart wall/muscle damage from this episode would not be evident at autopsy. That is why the witness made it clear, when he repeatedly stated, " No evidence of a previous heart attack".

Tricky, nonetheless Nelson missed it

 

[MsBetsy]

That is not the case, IMO.
There are other attorneys who also work for the Minnesota Police Union, but they are not assigned to this case. MO

I thought they were assisting him or at least available to consult with outside the courtroom. It seems odd that he wouldn't have any help for such a complicated case. Maybe he did all his medical research on his own, which may explain his lack of knowledge.

 

[turaj]

It is tough to watch Nelson with this medical questioning. Shame he did not have a member of his team that was more knowledgeable on medical terms.

Interesting, I don't find it that tough to watch, I think it makes him more likable, he's just a regular guy trying to pronounce big medical words lol


Also, I think Nelson is a 1 man team. No one else is on record as an attorney for Chauvin. He may have some help in the background, but they can't come into court and ask questions.

the woman sitting behind him is also an attorney with the firm that he is with...maybe we will see her during their case?

 

[Factoria]

IANAD, and I have not been anywhere near a motel since prior to Covid, BUT in the case of clarification, IMO any heart wall/muscle damage that can be seen at autopsy, (or via Angiogram) is caused from a Previous heart attack. Damage occurs over time....just like any muscle in your body. It can only be visible well ( days at least ) after the event, if you live after a heart attack. If GF had any type of Cardiac arrest ( which he did, on 5/25/20 ) the heart wall/muscle damage from this episode would not be evident at autopsy. That is why the witness made it clear, when he repeatedly stated, " No evidence of a previous heart attack".

Tricky, nonetheless Nelson missed it

BUT, Dr. Rich testified that there WOULD be evidence of a 'heart attack' visible on autopsy, if that were the cause of his heart having stopped working... platelets in coronary arteries, and other findings that I can't recall at the moment... and there were no such findings. He confidently stated that GF had no evidence of any heart attack ~ previously or on the date of his death.

 

[CrimeAway]

I thought they were assisting him or at least available to consult with outside the courtroom. It seems odd that he wouldn't have any help for such a complicated case. Maybe he did all his medical research on his own, which may explain his lack of knowledge.

I'm sure he can discuss thoughts with them if needed, but they may well have their own outside practice and/or other clients for the MPAPOA. MOO

 

[turaj]

Do we know how many medical experts are testifying for the defense? I remember seeing some on the list but I don't know how many.

honestly can't be that many based on the timeline the judge indicated this morning with closing arguments next Monday.

 

[MsBetsy]

BUT, Dr. Rich testified that there WOULD be evidence of a 'heart attack' visible on autopsy, if that were the cause of his heart having stopped working... platelets in coronary arteries, and other findings that I can't recall at the moment... and there were no such findings. He confidently stated that GF had no evidence of any heart attack ~ previously or on the date of his death.

Yes, and Dr.Baker did refer those kinds of questions to a cardiologist or pulmonologist when Nelson was questioning him.

 

[shotgun09]

BUT, Dr. Rich testified that there WOULD be evidence of a 'heart attack' visible on autopsy, if that were the cause of his heart having stopped working... platelets in coronary arteries, and other findings that I can't recall at the moment... and there were no such findings. He confidently stated that GF had no evidence of any heart attack ~ previously or on the date of his death.

Dr Rich also went on and on about " collaterals" and how wonderful they are ( which is true, by the way! ). But, I don't recall if collateral coronary arteries were mentioned in the autopsy at all. Curious that he just snuck that in there in his testimony.

ETA: Platelets also form, after an injury occurs. They are part of the blood component of a scab. Mr Floyd died suddenly, there was no time for platelets to form and appear on an autopsy

 

[MsBetsy]

honestly can't be that many based on the timeline the judge indicated this morning with closing arguments next Monday.

That's what I was thinking. We still haven't heard from Hall or George's brother, and we haven't seen any of the video evidence from Floyd's previous arrest or the two incidents Chauvin was involved in when excessive force was used.

 

[Topppps]

That wouldn't surprise me but it would seem to me that given how important the medical issues are in this case, they would have a more knowledgeable attorney regarding medicine, cross examine medical witnesses. That last witness, the cardiologist, really did circles around Mr. Nelson-- he did not allow him to put him in a corner with his "do you agree"--- this witness agreed to almost nothing Mr. Nelson put to him.

That cardiologist with the heavy accent sounded biased as hell, and Nelson only got his slides the night before, still Nelson had some good points like the peak Fetanyl being around the time Floyd died.

 

[MsBetsy]

Dr Rich also went on and on about " collaterals" and how wonderful they are ( which is true, by the way! ). But, I don't recall if collateral coronary arteries were mentioned in the autopsy at all. Curious that he just snuck that in there in his testimony.

It's a good thing he did because Dr. Baker didn't mention them at all. He only focused on the 70% and the 90% occluded arteries. He made it sound as if Floyd had been walking around about to have a heart attack at any minute.

 

[MsBetsy]

That cardiologist with the heavy accent sounded biased as hell, and Nelson only got his slides the night before, still Nelson had some good points like the peak Fetanyl being around the time Floyd died.

I don't think Dr. Tobin sounded biased at all, if that's who you're referring to. His diagrams were excellent in explaining how the pressure on Floyd's back and neck, while having his wrists forced inwards, contributed to his inability to get air in his lungs. It also points to intent, in that Chauvin was trying to hurt him.

 

[ilovewings]

I don't think Dr. Tobin sounded biased at all, if that's who you're referring to. His diagrams were excellent in explaining how the pressure on Floyd's back and neck, while having his wrists forced inwards, contributed to his inability to get air in his lungs. It also points to intent, in that Chauvin was trying to hurt him.

and Dr. Tobin was not a cardiologist, he is a pulmonologist

 

[turaj]

That cardiologist with the heavy accent sounded biased as hell, and Nelson only got his slides the night before, still Nelson had some good points like the peak Fetanyl being around the time Floyd died.

Well he was a witness for the state...he is biased or I don't think he would have agreed to testify.

 

[missy1974]

Of course, I have no doubt that we'll hear from medical experts who will offer an opinion more favourable to the Defense's position, and I look forward to hearing that... But, why ask questions of the State's witness that will surely elicit responses that are so clearly damning to their own case? Overall, I think Nelson has been doing a good job, given the hand he's been dealt. But that cross just left me feeling uncomfortable for him.

I listened to the testimony, I don't think the doc said anything that Nelson didn't expect, but that's JMO based on the fact that he didn't really say much that I didn't expect as well and I didn't have the benefit of having read his report prior.

 

[btfly547]

Personally, I was under the impression that high blood pressure and carotid disease were not indicators of a “strong heart,” and wasn’t aware that clogged hearts “make you stronger” in a positive manner. 75% - 90% clogged arteries? No big deal.

Apparently a heart attack no longer has symptoms including: chest pain, lightheadedness, shortness of breath, sweating, etc.

A previous witness already mentioned smoking isn’t all that unhealthy. My concern is: have I been bamboozled by the American healthcare industry until this trial?

As a health care provider, all of it makes sense to me. Except the part about clogged arteries making the heart stronger, but I must have missed the doctor saying that anyway.
Hypertension and mildly enlarged heart? Yes it can be a good thing as long as that enlargement doesn’t keep happening. With hypertension the body simply pumps the same amount of blood it needs against higher pressures. With mild enlargement, the heart wouldn’t have to work quite as hard as if it was a bit more normal. Body’s coping mechanism.

Another way to look at it is the heart is a muscle. Work out any muscle long and hard enough and it becomes larger. Pumping enough blood to supply a body against “higher pressures or heavier weights” is undoubtedly to cause enlargement. After years of that heart failure can occur but none of the doctors have mentioned that he was anywhere near that point.

The no symptom heart attack is extremely common among mostly diabetics. Look up “silent MI”. Just like some of them can’t feel their toes after some time is the same thing - may not feel an active heart attack. Most of the time these people won’t know they’ve had a heart attack until an EKG is done and shows changes consistent with an old MI - one of those being ST depression.

 

[MsBetsy]

As a health care provider, all of it makes sense to me. Except the part about clogged arteries making the heart stronger, but I must have missed the doctor saying that anyway.
Hypertension and mildly enlarged heart? Yes it can be a good thing as long as that enlargement doesn’t keep happening. With hypertension the body simply pumps the same amount of blood it needs against higher pressures. With mild enlargement, the heart wouldn’t have to work quite as hard as if it was a bit more normal. Body’s coping mechanism.

Another way to look at it is the heart is a muscle. Work out any muscle long and hard enough and it becomes larger. Pumping enough blood to supply a body against “higher pressures or heavier weights” is undoubtedly to cause enlargement. After years of that heart failure can occur but none of the doctors have mentioned that he was anywhere near that point.

The no symptom heart attack is extremely common among mostly diabetics. Look up “silent MI”. Just like some of them can’t feel their toes after some time is the same thing - may not feel an active heart attack. Most of the time these people won’t know they’ve had a heart attack until an EKG is done and shows changes consistent with an old MI - one of those being ST depression.

I would think that being active in sports and lifting weights regularly would make the heart stronger, too.