• #1,721
Below is a excellent analysis of the case by legal experts. It's very long but worth reading if you want to understand the legal issues here. They raise many pros and cons for each party to the case.


Good source.

It is a hard slog to read it. I read it once, and I'm not sure if it made me feel smarter or dumber, lol.

But the gist I'm getting is, the case getting to trial is an uphill battle, with plenty of potential motions that could derail it, but ultimately, the case has fair odds and might survive several motions to throw it out. The legal arguments for throwing it out are complex and varied.

It also gave me the impression that a lot of wrangling will be necessary for a long time before we know if this is going to trial, especially if motions to dismiss are considered one at a time and don't succeed.

The article seemed to think that if the case went to trial, that is where it is even less promising for the prosecution. Because, per this article, the overt acts charged are not supported by the video evidence.

Tomorrow will be an exciting day.

MOO
 
  • #1,722
Nope, did you even read them? They're both about abortion clinics, not churches. This case we're talking about is a protest at a church, not a clinic. Different clauses of the Face Act. The Lawfare article I cited above says that that law has likely never been applied with regards to a church. This case were talking about would be the first time.

Since you seem to have difficulty reading, this is from your first link.



From the second link,



Please read better.
What the quoted poster can't or won't understand is that they are inseparable. These cases deal with alleged violations of the First Amendment rights of protestors. The courts have said repeatedly, that governments can adopted statutes covering this.

Just recently, 2025, SCOTUS had a chance to revisit this concept in a different case; they declined to hear the case.

Again, it is an example trying to insert a personal opinion in place of the law.


IMO.
 
  • #1,723
Below is a excellent analysis of the case by legal experts. It's very long but worth reading if you want to understand the legal issues here. They raise many pros and cons for each party to the case.


The photos in your linked article are pretty enlightening.

Don Lemon holding the front door open (from the outside) so parishioners can leave. Other parishioners leaving in an unobstructed manner through a side door. Photo taken from way off to the edge of the interior, away from the protesters. The pastor speaking freely with Don, who was standing to the side of the pastor.

imo
 
  • #1,724
Legal arguments by Lemon himself are irrelevant. He's not a lawyer nor a First Amendment expert, and is not going to be arguing his case in court. He will be well represented by real experts.
Also, Lemon and the pastor were talking about the protesters, not Lemon.

The pastor himself does not conflate Lemon with the protesters.

Lemon was not talking about himself when he said to the pastor that the protesters had a first amendment right.

MOO
 
  • #1,725
It's possible the injured person didn't yell out "hey, journalist, I have a broken arm!" Which may have been why it wasn't reported. Or the diagnosis was made after the fact. Plus there's lots of people who have walked around with a fracture and not even known it until it gets progressively worse. So on the scale of one to ten I consider 'a journalist' not being aware of a broken arm in the church a ten.
It's possible it didn't happen.

The sworn statement is by the affiant, who knows this by apparent hear-say.

They just appear have knowledge of a broken arm and are willing to swear to it, to the best of their knowledge and belief. That does not make their statement perjury, but it probably is inadmissible. The person with the broken arm, witnesses to the fall, or a medical professional that treated it might be appropriate witnesses whose testimony and sworn statements might be admissible. We haven't seen any of that.

And the actual witness to the broken arm would need testimony that can stand up to cross examination. Suppose a witness to the fall agrees on cross examination that it was not really clear the person who fell was running or appeared afraid? What if there was a patch of ice on the ground where she fell? What if a child shifted, and she fell onto her arm that was not holding the child she wanted to protect from injury? What if she was seen walking out the office door just as casually as other worshippers walked from the other doors? The words in the indictment are just a rumor at this point. It's not admissible evidence.

The affidavit does not assert first-hand knowledge of the alleged injury, There is an implication that this was learned or corroborated from a log entry of a 911 call to a dispatcher the next day, the day after the protest.

That said, I don't wish a broken arm on anybody. No matter if it's running from a protest, catching an escaping child, or a random slip and fall in cold Minneapolis, broken arms hurt.


MOO
 
  • #1,726
It's possible it didn't happen.

The sworn statement is by the affiant, who knows this by apparent hear-say.

They just appear have knowledge of a broken arm and are willing to swear to it, to the best of their knowledge and belief. That does not make their statement perjury, but it probably is inadmissible. The person with the broken arm, witnesses to the fall, or a medical professional that treated it might be appropriate witnesses whose testimony and sworn statements might be admissible. We haven't seen any of that.

And the actual witness to the broken arm would need testimony that can stand up to cross examination. Suppose a witness to the fall agrees on cross examination that it was not really clear the person who fell was running or appeared afraid? What if there was a patch of ice on the ground where she fell? What if a child shifted, and she fell onto her arm that was not holding the child she wanted to protect from injury? What if she was seen walking out the office door just as casually as other worshippers walked from the other doors? The words in the indictment are just a rumor at this point. It's not admissible evidence.

The affidavit does not assert first-hand knowledge of the alleged injury, There is an implication that this was learned or corroborated from a log entry of a 911 call to a dispatcher the next day, the day after the protest.

That said, I don't wish a broken arm on anybody. No matter if it's running from a protest, catching an escaping child, or a random slip and fall in cold Minneapolis, broken arms hurt.


MOO
In agreement 100%.
 
  • #1,727
It's possible it didn't happen.

The sworn statement is by the affiant, who knows this by apparent hear-say.

They just appear have knowledge of a broken arm and are willing to swear to it, to the best of their knowledge and belief. That does not make their statement perjury, but it probably is inadmissible. The person with the broken arm, witnesses to the fall, or a medical professional that treated it might be appropriate witnesses whose testimony and sworn statements might be admissible. We haven't seen any of that.

And the actual witness to the broken arm would need testimony that can stand up to cross examination. Suppose a witness to the fall agrees on cross examination that it was not really clear the person who fell was running or appeared afraid? What if there was a patch of ice on the ground where she fell? What if a child shifted, and she fell onto her arm that was not holding the child she wanted to protect from injury? What if she was seen walking out the office door just as casually as other worshippers walked from the other doors? The words in the indictment are just a rumor at this point. It's not admissible evidence.

The affidavit does not assert first-hand knowledge of the alleged injury, There is an implication that this was learned or corroborated from a log entry of a 911 call to a dispatcher the next day, the day after the protest.

That said, I don't wish a broken arm on anybody. No matter if it's running from a protest, catching an escaping child, or a random slip and fall in cold Minneapolis, broken arms hurt.


MOO

Does anyone know how old the worshipper who ended up with a broken arm is? This kind of injury to an older person is more than "brokens arm hurts." It can take about two months to heal if it is a simple break, or longer if otherwise. It can also mean time of work and inability to drive and other issues. It can also mean lifelong pain, depending on the break and other factors. I imagine that there could be a civil lawsuit as well as criminal to Lemon and company.

MOO
 
  • #1,728
Please note I am sharing quotes from a source (as I have done often on this thread and other threads for years). The words in italics are the quotes, not my words. I thought that was a common understanding but I'm pointing it out just to be clear.


As communications leaders and organizations, we condemn recent federal actions against journalists that undermine the freedom of the press and the fundamental principles of our profession. ...

This is not a political issue but an assault on constitutional protections that impact every communications professional in the United States.

Independent journalism is essential to our society and our profession. Journalists hold institutions accountable, provide the third-party credibility our work requires, and ensure the free flow of information that markets and democracies depend upon. ...

We call on the Justice Department to immediately drop charges against journalists Lemon and Fort and to stop targeting journalists for intimidation and prosecution. We urge Congress to investigate and hold hearings on these threats to press freedom.

To our fellow communicators, we urge you to protect and support independent journalism. Our freedom depends on the protection of press freedom.





About the source:
In response to the unprecedented arrest and prosecution of journalists for covering a news event, a grassroots group of communications leaders joined together on this letter to support the free press critical to our society and professional. No official organization or company is behind this effort.


72 individuals and 14 organizations have signed the letter. The list is at the link.
 
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  • #1,729
THIS IS OFF TOPIC. THE LINK TO JOIN THIS DISCUSSION IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST
Let me show you exactly why AI can be flat-out terrifying when it comes to facts.

I use ChatGPT.

One time, I asked if Olivia Newton-John and Karen Carpenter were best friends. Don’t ask why I asked, I’m just weird. In answer to my question, it said, “Yes, they are so close they went to each other’s funerals.”

Let that sink in.

But yesterday? Yesterday it went nuclear.

I was trying to find information on FBI director Kash Patel for Nancy's case. Here is what it told me:

“There is no FBI Director named 'Kash Petal.”
He is not (and has never been) FBI Director. He served as a national security official during the Trump administration and has been a very vocal political figure, especially around FBI oversight and the “Russiagate” investigations.
The current FBI Director is:
Christopher A. Wray
(appointed in 2017)
There was no official FBI case involving Charlie Kirk led by an FBI Director”

WTH????

Completely confident. Completely wrong.

That’s the scary part. It doesn’t hesitate. It doesn’t say “maybe.” It just states it like it’s carved in stone. I I pay 20 bucks a month to have a machine give me wrong info.

So now I want to hear from you.

Join our
Give Us This Day Our Daily Thread (Click here) and tell us your craziest AI stories. The weirder the better.

Please don’t post on this thread. Come to our
Daily Thread and discuss.

This should be very interesting.
Thanks, everyone.
Tricia
 
  • #1,730
It's possible it didn't happen.

The sworn statement is by the affiant, who knows this by apparent hear-say.

They just appear have knowledge of a broken arm and are willing to swear to it, to the best of their knowledge and belief. That does not make their statement perjury, but it probably is inadmissible. The person with the broken arm, witnesses to the fall, or a medical professional that treated it might be appropriate witnesses whose testimony and sworn statements might be admissible. We haven't seen any of that.

And the actual witness to the broken arm would need testimony that can stand up to cross examination. Suppose a witness to the fall agrees on cross examination that it was not really clear the person who fell was running or appeared afraid? What if there was a patch of ice on the ground where she fell? What if a child shifted, and she fell onto her arm that was not holding the child she wanted to protect from injury? What if she was seen walking out the office door just as casually as other worshippers walked from the other doors? The words in the indictment are just a rumor at this point. It's not admissible evidence.

The affidavit does not assert first-hand knowledge of the alleged injury, There is an implication that this was learned or corroborated from a log entry of a 911 call to a dispatcher the next day, the day after the protest.

That said, I don't wish a broken arm on anybody. No matter if it's running from a protest, catching an escaping child, or a random slip and fall in cold Minneapolis, broken arms hurt.

The affidavit says the broken arm was reported to dispatch, so I tend to believe some church member did claim that. But of course it would not be the first time federal officials lied when charging someone in Minnesota during the ICE operation. It's hard to take anything they say at face value at this point, before further corroboration.

(The Daniel Rosen mentioned below is also named on the Lemon indictment.)


In an extraordinary court filing, the top federal prosecutor in Minnesota acknowledged on Thursday that officials had provided incorrect information about a shooting by an immigration agent last month.

The prosecutor, Daniel N. Rosen, asked a judge to dismiss charges against a man who was wounded in that shooting, as well as another man who had been accused of attacking the agent. Mr. Rosen wrote that “newly discovered evidence in this matter is materially inconsistent with the allegations” that federal officials made in a charging document and in courtroom testimony.
 
  • #1,731
Below is a excellent analysis of the case by legal experts. It's very long but worth reading if you want to understand the legal issues here. They raise many pros and cons for each party to the case.

Will Abbe Lowell & Joe Thompson run with this today?

"The defendants could also go one step further and argue that their charges are the result of an improper vindictive prosecution. Generally, and specifically in the Eighth Circuit, where this case was charged, a prosecution “designed solely to punish a defendant for exercising a valid legal right” violates due process. This presents a heavy burden on the defense, which must show that the government brought the prosecution as a result of a “vindictive or improper motive.”

The protester defendants could allege the government has vindictively targeted them if they have a history of lawful protests against ICE operations in Minnesota. However, absent evidence such as statements by the Justice Department, the White House, or Trump reflecting an animus against these protestors divorced from any legitimate prosecutorial considerations, it will be a difficult defense to raise successfully.

For that reason, though, Lemon’s argument may be stronger. He could argue he has over the years exercised his First Amendment right to speak out about Trump, which has ultimately led to these charges. And he could strengthen his claim by pointing to Trump’s longtime animus against him, Trump’s reaction to his arrest (calling Lemon a “sleazebag,” “a washup,” and noting that the arrest is “the best thing that could have happened to [Lemon]”), the weakness of the evidence against him (as detailed below), and the White House’s response on X to the arrest:

screenshot-2026-02-11-at-12-56-05-pm975cb74b-7485-40d8-abf0-97651304b6a6.png



These motions are typically an uphill battle. Courts are often hesitant to impede upon the “broad discretion to enforce the Nation’s criminal laws” held by “the Attorney General and the United States Attorneys.” That is because “the presumption of regularity” normally supports their prosecutorial decisions and, in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary, courts “presume that they have properly discharged their official duties.” The Trump administration’s abnormal efforts to investigate and/or prosecute defendants like Kilmar Abrego Garcia and some of the president’s perceived enemies, however, have called that presumption of regularity into question. Lowell, Lemon’s criminal defense attorney, has recently made these same arguments against the government in a separate troubling prosecution against New York’s attorney general, Letitia James./
 
  • #1,732
dbm

Smelly Squirrel posted what I did. No need for me to repeat what's already been well said.
 
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  • #1,733
The affidavit says the broken arm was reported to dispatch, so I tend to believe some church member did claim that. But of course it would not be the first time federal officials lied when charging someone in Minnesota during the ICE operation. It's hard to take anything they say at face value at this point, before further corroboration.

(The Daniel Rosen mentioned below is also named on the Lemon indictment.)


In an extraordinary court filing, the top federal prosecutor in Minnesota acknowledged on Thursday that officials had provided incorrect information about a shooting by an immigration agent last month.

The prosecutor, Daniel N. Rosen, asked a judge to dismiss charges against a man who was wounded in that shooting, as well as another man who had been accused of attacking the agent. Mr. Rosen wrote that “newly discovered evidence in this matter is materially inconsistent with the allegations” that federal officials made in a charging document and in courtroom testimony.
The question is reasonable: Why did an ICE agent fill out the affadavit in this case against a journalist? It's not that ICE agents can't complete affadavits, but ICE deals with immigration issues. It's a reasonable question to ask, imo. Perhaps it will make sense when we have the info about how that happened, idk.

And it's reasonable to question the trustworthiness of ICE when they've been known to lie about incidents (one example, local to this case, linked by Smelly Squirrel above). I'll believe the affadavit when the info is proven in court.

All of this is In My Opinion.
 
  • #1,734
Lemon's arraigment is today, Feb 13, in Minnesota.


Arraignments in federal court typically include the entering of pleas and scheduling of future proceedings. It wasn't clear ahead of the hearing if Lemon planned to personally appear or let his legal team handle the hearing.


 

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