• #2,581
Gutting it how exactly? The pleading just lays out what the law says and what the terms mean. There is no gutting at all. Some people just want the law to apply to acts the law does not apply to, simply because they were charged with that law and they want the protestors punished somehow, so damn the rule of law. moo



Which facts and why?



WOW, what an wild leap. Who said it was okay? Not me. I don't like what they did, but neither my feelings nor your feelings about it turn what they did into the federal crimes charged. This court case is about the charged crimes not about anyone's personal feelings about it. Why are you mixing up the two?

This quote from the pleading is very appropriate for this thread:

In the absence of accurate legal guidance, grand jurors would almost certainly interpret this legally complicated statute based on the common usage of terms that are defined far more narrowly in the statute. The risk of a grand jury applying incorrect standards—and therefore the need for accurate legal guidance—is particularly critical here, where the statute uses terms with special legal meaning; the conduct involves core First Amendment expression; the evidence is extraordinarily thin; and the subject matter (disruption of worship) is one about which passions run high.

moo
<modsnip>
You quote from the defendants pleading as a "fact?" <modsnip>
At no time have ANY of these defendants ever stated that they now realize this was a bad idea. In fact, they double down on their actions. That says a lot about their feelings.
The government's pleadings stand.
Lets see what happens.
 
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  • #2,582
Today another motion for disclosure of grand jury proceedings was filed.


That's a joint pleading by 33 of the defendants. Fort and Lemon previously filed their joint motion and Shane Bollman filed his own motion as well.

Bollman is another journalist defendant, he's a photojournalist who was there just taking pictures. This is his motion which was filed in March.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/72212459/441/united-states-v-levy-armstrong/

Quoting a few sections from the latest motion.

On irregularities by DOJ.

III. LAW AND ARGUMENT
As demonstrated below, there are numerous concrete, non-speculative reasons to believe that the government provided the grand jury with profoundly misleading legal instruction; failed to ensure that the grand jury engaged in an individualized, defendant-by-defendant assessment of probable cause; engaged in improper, inflammatory commentary; and improperly rushed the grand jury’s deliberation due to the government’s hyperbolic claim of national emergency. Any of these grand jury abuses, separately or combined, risks an indictment so obviously obtained through infringement on the grand jury’s independence that it violates the Fifth Amendment and can provide grounds for dismissal.


On flawed instructions of the law.

A. There Is Reason to Believe the Government Provided the Grand Jury with Fundamentally Flawed Legal Instruction
The government has charged two narrow, complex statutes. However, the language in the superseding indictment itself (underscored by public comments made by DOJ officials) reveals that the government did not understand (or did not respect) the limited legal reach of these statutes. The government’s ignorance of (or disregard for) the elements of the offenses it charged makes it extremely likely that prosecutors, relying on their incorrect view of the law, provided fundamentally inaccurate legal instruction to the grand jury. Although courts rarely concern themselves with minor instructional errors in the grand jury—because it is rare for such errors to affect probable cause, much less fundamental fairness—significant, improper instruction, such as appears to have been given here, infringes on the grand jury’s independence and provides grounds for dismissal.


On how idiotic the indictment is. moo

3. The Superseding Indictment Language Reflecting the Government’s Legal Misconceptions
The government here chose to use a speaking indictment, setting forth detailed factual averments about the alleged crime. Thus, the superseding indictment reveals the specific conduct that the government claims violates the statutes. However, despite the detail, these allegations fail to establish many of the statutory elements of the offenses and appear to controvert many of the basic legal principles outlined above.8 The superseding indictment details 41 “overt acts,” which generally describe protestors organizing and promoting a demonstration to air grievances against the federal government. The allegations do not describe anyone discussing (let alone agreeing to) acts of violence or an intent to threaten anyone. They also do not describe any act of violence or any act intended to put another in fear of bodily harm. Nor do they include any act of rendering impassable ingress to or egress from the church. When those detailed factual allegations are compared to the statutory elements discussed above, it becomes manifest that the government has profoundly misunderstood (or intentionally misrepresented) the law in numerous critical ways and therefore is likely to have significantly misguided the grand jury. The error would have substantially influenced the decision to indict and would raise grave doubt that the grand jury’s decision was free from improper influence. See Bank of Nova Scotia, 487 U.S. at 256.


Just quoting the following subparagraph headings under the above paragraph.

a. The government incorrectly interprets § 241 to outlaw, without more, an agreement to disrupt a service at a church.

b. The government incorrectly interprets § 248(a)(2) to outlaw the disruption of a prayer service at a church (at least if the disruption is upsetting to others and/or involves even minor hindrance of another person’s movement).

c. The government incorrectly interprets “injure, oppress, threaten and intimidate” to encompass conduct that is disruptive and offensive, even absent an intent to advocate for force or violence, as required by Eighth Circuit law.

d. The government incorrectly interprets “physical obstruction” to include crowding an aisle, standing close to another person, or engaging in other conduct that falls far short of the complete or near-complete obstruction required by the statute.

e. The government misunderstands (or ignores) its duty to conduct an individualized assessment of each defendant’s conduct with respect to each charge.

f. The legal misinterpretations in the superseding indictment are shared by the highest officials in the Department of Justice.

"The government here chose to use a speaking indictment, setting forth detailed factual averments about the alleged crime."

What does this mean? Does it mean that the grand jury was not shown all of the video footage?
 
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  • #2,583
"The government here chose to use a speaking indictment, setting forth detailed factual averments about the alleged crime."

What does this mean? Does it mean that the grand jury was not shown all of the video footage?
 
  • #2,584
  • #2,585
What a joke!
You quote from the defendants pleading as a "fact?" Please dont do that.
At no time have ANY of these defendants ever stated that they now realize this was a bad idea. In fact, they double down on their actions. That says a lot about their feelings.
The government's pleadings stand.
Lets see what happens.
A protest is a public expression of strong objection, disapproval, or dissent regarding a policy, action, or idea.
Why would they all of a sudden realize this was a bad idea?

I read plenty of opinions here, stating fact why can’t defendant’s state fact in their responses?

JMO
 
  • #2,586
"The government here chose to use a speaking indictment, setting forth detailed factual averments about the alleged crime."

What does this mean? Does it mean that the grand jury was not shown all of the video footage?
I think one
<modsnip>
You quote from the defendants pleading as a "fact?" <modsnip>
At no time have ANY of these defendants ever stated that they now realize this was a bad idea. In fact, they double down on their actions. That says a lot about their feelings.
The government's pleadings stand.
Lets see what happens.
It extra ordinarily hypocritical.

The indictment itself is very short on facts when it comes to identifying potentially illegal behavior. When it does actually identify behaviors that we can see on the video evidence, the behaviors are not illegal.

Yet, there are posting here who are essentially saying, "This person did crimes because the indictment says so." Well an indictment is only an indictment. An accusation. It's not proof of anything.

And, when you read the indictment and watch the video, there is a disconnect. Most of the behaviors did not happen. The behaviors that did happen were not illegal.

Nobody has identified a behavior that is captured on video that is illegal by Don Lemon, with the milktoast weak exception of his reminding people he was documenting that he was doing so live, and the world will hear their words in real time. (It's against the law for a journalist to remind their source that what they are doing is public? I don't think so.)

As for the belief that there is other evidence...from where? We have many prospectives of video. The people charged are the ones who took video with sound. There might be video without sound from the church, but it's not going to add information.

MOO
 
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  • #2,587
I LOVE LOVE this motion because it gives great background on the laws charged. Below is the section on the Face Act. It says things that have been pointed out here already but in much better detail. The information about the term "threat" is very helpful. bbm


a. 18 U.S.C. § 248(a)(2), the FACE Act
The applicable section of § 248 makes it a crime to use force, threat of force, or physical obstruction to intentionally injure, intimidate, or interfere with “any person lawfully exercising or seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship.” See 18 U.S.C. § 248(a)(2). The elements of the charged violation of § 248(a)(2) are (1) that the defendant used force, the threat of force, or physical obstruction (as that term is narrowly defined in the statute), (2) that the defendant acted with intent to injure, intimidate, or interfere with another person; (3) that the other person was lawfully exercising religious freedom at a place of worship; and (4) that the offense resulted in bodily injury to another person.5 18 U.S.C. § 248(a)(2); see also United States v. Dinwiddie, 76 F.3d 913, 917 (8th Cir. 1996) (generally discussing statutory language of § 248(a)(1)); United States v. Harlow, No. CR 22- 096-4 (CKK), 2023 WL 7880183, at *5 (D.D.C. Nov. 16, 2023)(unpublished) (reciting elements of § 248(a)) and citing (Terry v. Reno, 101 F.3d 1412, 1414 (D.C. Cir. 1996)).

Subsection (e) of § 248 specifically defines “intimidate” (“to place a person in reasonable apprehension of bodily harm to him”), “interfere with” (“to restrict a person’s freedom of movement”), and “physical obstruction” (“rendering impassable ingress to or egress from … a place of religious worship, or rendering passage to or from such … place of religious worship unreasonably difficult or hazardous”). Although the term “threat” is not defined in the statute, the Supreme Court has recognized that to form the basis of a criminal charge, a threat must be a “true threat,” that is, a statement “where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals.” Virginia v. Black, 538 U.S. 343, 359 (2003) (emphasis added). Moreover, the Eighth Circuit, upholding the constitutionality of a parallel provision of the FACE Act, held that the threats outlawed by the statute were those threats that met the statutory definition of “intimidation,” meaning that they must place a person “in reasonable apprehension of bodily harm.” Dinwiddie, 76 F.3d at 922.

Offensive statements are not threats, and the fact that a purported victim subjectively finds a statement threatening is not, by itself, enough to render it so, particularly in light of § 248’s requirement that the government prove that a defendant made the threat to “intentionally” intimidate a person engaging in free exercise of religion.

Thus, § 248 requires that a defendant both (1) engage in one of three prohibited actions (the use of physical force, issuance of a threat intended to put someone in fear of bodily harm, or physical obstruction that renders impassable ingress to or egress from a building), and (2) act with an intent to injure, or place in apprehension of bodily harm, a person who is lawfully exercising their religious freedom. Patently, § 248 does not outlaw mere interference with, or disruption of, a prayer service—even if the disruption is rude, unseemly, and offensive. The FACE Act does not prohibit conduct that interrupts, bothers, disrupts, offends, or even frightens, unless that conduct also involves force, threat, or (total or near-total) obstruction carried out with intent to injure, intimidate and interfere with another person.

Another basic legal principle that is important in evaluating whether the grand jury was properly instructed on this count: in any multi-defendant case, Due Process demands that culpability be determined on an individualized, defendant-by-defendant and charge-by-charge basis. See United States v. Whitfield, 140 F.4th 978, 986 (8th Cir. 2025) (citing with approval instruction to petit juror that each count must be considered separately); United States v. Benedict, 855 F.3d 880, 885 (8th Cir. 2017) (citing with approval limiting instructions given during trial that each defendant “is entitled to have his case decided solely on the evidence which applies to him”).

Accordingly, a properly instructed grand jury would need to be familiar with the elements and limitations of § 248, and particularly with the definitions of “intimidate,” “threat,” and “physical obstruction,” and also be aware of the principle of individualized determination. In the absence of accurate legal guidance, grand jurors would almost certainly interpret this legally complicated statute based on the common usage of terms that are defined far more narrowly in the statute. The risk of a grand jury applying incorrect standards—and therefore the need for accurate legal guidance—is particularly critical here, where the statute uses terms with special legal meaning; the conduct involves core First Amendment expression; the evidence is extraordinarily thin; and the subject matter (disruption of worship) is one about which passions run high.

I don't see how these charges ever came to fruition and really don't understand how the DOJ thinks, for a minute, that they're getting a conviction here.

MOO.
 
  • #2,588
What is interesting is that these are really attempts to now just gut the FACE act. Who knows where this falls out. I think the facts are sufficient to proceed to trial. What is truly appalling to me is just the support for the concept of what happened here. That is was somehow OK to attack a church. Are you serious? This can never be ok.

Attempts to gut the FACE Act or attempts to understand the FACE Act and its constitutionality in the context of previous cases and court rulings? I don't think there's anything wrong with clarifying legislation to be better aligned with the Constitution.

I also don't see anyone here saying that it's "ok to attack a church." I think people are saying that what happened here, especially where DL is concerned, was not a crime, and the DOJ's attempt at lawfare is hypocritical at best and criminal at worst.

Frankly, I think there are an awful lot of people working at the DOJ who deserve to be disbarred for their handling of this and other cases.

MOO.
 
  • #2,589
As for the belief that there is other evidence...from where? We have many prospectives of video. The people charged are the ones who took video with sound. There might be video without sound from the church, but it's not going to add information.

MOO
It's clearly stated in the charging documents there are multiple sources of evidence collected.
I believe that to be true. You're free to disbelieve it if you choose to do that.
 

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