MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #2

[Simply Caustic]

oh darn, i must be confused about the difference between battery and assault, could you please clear that up for me?

thanx.

Would you like me to find the links for you? What precisely do you have a question about, the intricacies of assault/battery, or are we still discussing the strong-arm robbery vs. armed? I'll be glad to help you out, just let me know what you are confused about.

ETA: Disregard, MyBelle beat me to the punch :scared:

 

[MyBelle]

oh darn, i must be confused about the difference between battery and assault, could you please clear that up for me?

thanx.

Sure, no problem. Here ya go......a link that explains it in layman terms. The video I linked shows intimidation with the victim leaning back in fear (battery)as Brown leans forward and points at him.... And it also shows Brown also touched the clerk and shoved him (assault.)

Hence: the crimes of both assault and battery were committed by Brown. It wasn't just simple battery as you believe.


Assault and Battery
Two separate offenses against the person that when used in one expression may be defined as any unlawful and unpermitted touching of another.

Assault is an act that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent, harmful, or offensive contact. The act consists of a threat of harm accompanied by an apparent, present ability to carry out the threat.

Battery is a harmful or offensive touching of another.

The main distinction between the two offenses is the existence or nonexistence of a touching or contact. While contact is an essential element of battery, there must be an absence of contact for assault. Sometimes assault is defined loosely to include battery.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault+and+Battery

 

[Isabelle]

Did the events occur on a public street or in an apartment complex type drive through? As a home health nurse I have been to apartment complexes that have private streets off public streets. Thanks

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

thanx for the reply - i dont think i can possibly make it any clearer what i am requesting so i will just repeat it and maybe you can tell me what part you dont get and i will try to explain further;

"does anyone have a link for a statement from the police chief that says that the officer definitely suspected the two of them of the robbery before the shooting started?"

a statement from the police chief that says "this officer definitely became aware that these two were suspects in a felony robbery before the altercation and shooting".
thanx

I would say by the statement below that the officer definitely suspected that the two were possibly the same in the robbery.

Ferguson officer realized during encounter that Michael Brown might be suspect in robbery, chief says

The officer who shot Ferguson teen Michael Brown stopped Brown and another teen because they were walking in the street, not because of a robbery a few minutes earlier, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said Friday afternoon.

Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects. He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said.

But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html

 

[Isabelle]

Sure, no problem. Here ya go......a link that explains it in layman terms. The video I linked shows intimidation with the victim leaning back in fear (battery)as Brown leans forward and points at him.... And it also shows Brown also touched the clerk and shoved him (assault.)

Hence: the crimes of both assault and battery were committed by Brown. It wasn't just simple battery as you believe.


Assault and Battery
Two separate offenses against the person that when used in one expression may be defined as any unlawful and unpermitted touching of another.

Assault is an act that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent, harmful, or offensive contact. The act consists of a threat of harm accompanied by an apparent, present ability to carry out the threat.

Battery is a harmful or offensive touching of another.

The main distinction between the two offenses is the existence or nonexistence of a touching or contact. While contact is an essential element of battery, there must be an absence of contact for assault. Sometimes assault is defined loosely to include battery.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault+and+Battery

Yes, the definition of Assault and Battery were drilled into us as nursing students.

 

[liljim]

JMO, allllllll of this:
The unarmed facet of the crime would factor in, yes. That's why it's not armed robbery, but the violence still requires strong-arm robbery. I would expect that a judge wouldn't hit him too hard...especially if he didn't have juvie cases, and going to college, etc. would all factor in his favor. They offer, IIRC, SIS in Missouri...so he could do the SIS (suspended imposition of sentence) and basically do a probation program. Those vary in length, sometimes 2 years, sometimes 3 - at that point, it wouldn't be on his record for life for an average background check. However, some criminal checks do see the probation/SIS, as the counselor explained to the inmates at the jail. So, even with probation, you are stuck dealing with that forever.

Felony robbery cannot be expunged: He would have a record, FOREVER. No way around it, if convicted.

http://www.sagepub.com/upm-data/27009_6.pdf
see the above link for a wonderful listing of sentencing guidelines by state, and the movement for those requesting sentencing reform. There's a chart - Page 6, IIRC - that shows the average sentences.

great response thank you, and from your experience this case would make it in front of a judge and charged as a felony?

thanx.

 

[Isabelle]

I would say by the statement below that the officer definitely suspected that the two were possibly the same in the robbery.

Ferguson officer realized during encounter that Michael Brown might be suspect in robbery, chief says

The officer who shot Ferguson teen Michael Brown stopped Brown and another teen because they were walking in the street, not because of a robbery a few minutes earlier, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said Friday afternoon.

Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects. He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said.

But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html

Now it's no the officer didn't know but yes he knew. It's one or the other.

 

[liljim]

Sure, no problem. Here ya go......a link that explains it in layman terms. The video I linked shows intimidation with the victim leaning back in fear (battery)as Brown leans forward and points at him.... And it also shows Brown also touched the clerk and shoved him (assault.)

Hence: the crimes of both assault and battery were committed by Brown. It wasn't just simple battery as you believe.


Assault and Battery
Two separate offenses against the person that when used in one expression may be defined as any unlawful and unpermitted touching of another.

Assault is an act that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent, harmful, or offensive contact. The act consists of a threat of harm accompanied by an apparent, present ability to carry out the threat.

Battery is a harmful or offensive touching of another.

The main distinction between the two offenses is the existence or nonexistence of a touching or contact. While contact is an essential element of battery, there must be an absence of contact for assault. Sometimes assault is defined loosely to include battery.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault+and+Battery

aha i suspected i understood them correctly to begin with, so when i said that there was no significant injury due to the battery i was correct, thanx for confirming that!

 

[K_Z]

What if he had a juvenile record?

Jail time or not, if convicted for a class B felony, he would have had a felony record.

what if he did?

sure, if he were charged with a felony which is unlikely.

It wasn't battery, it was assault.

JMO

Well, had he lived to be charged, it's almost certain he would have been charged with several (at least 3) felonies for the robbery, assault of the store clerk, and altercation with the officer, of which I feel certain he would have been convicted, IMO, JMO, etc.

Who care if someone has a juvenile record?? I sure hope the judicial system does!

If a sentencing judge is allowed to know about a juvenile record, I think it would be immensely helpful to the judge to determine appropriate sentencing. A sealed juvenile record is supposed to give the criminal juvenile a SECOND CHANCE to straighten out his life, to stop committing crimes, to reflect on his behavior, and commit to avoiding criminal behavior. A sealed juvie record is a GIFT that should not be squandered. So, if a sentencing judge was aware of a sealed juvie record, in a felon who had just turned 18 just months earlier, it should persuade the judge that the individual has no remorse for his CURRENT criminal behavior, nor any serious motivation to avoid criminal behavior. It would persuade a judge to sentence the individual more harshly, I hope. It would demonstrate that the individual had no plans or goals to change his criminal behavior, and that the reality of the judicial system (which he would have already experienced) was not any kind of deterrent to his current criminal behavior.

In essence, a sealed juvie record, close to crimes committed after age 18, IMO, should prompt a judge to impose maximum sentence/s for current criminal behavior. IDK if it does, but it should ensure the convicted serve maximum terms, IMO.

Does one of our legal experts know? Can a sentencing judge know about a sealed juvenile record?? I sure hope so.

 

[Simply Caustic]

great response thank you, and from your experience this case would make it in front of a judge and charged as a felony?

thanx.

My experience is all after the fact, as it were: They were already convicted. I worked in the diversion program known as Drug Court more recently (as a paralegal), and from what I've seen with applicants to the program, it would depend on any history he had, but this is JMO, and FWIW, in my experience. Less history = much better chance of probation or diversion. MUCH better.

I think he would have been offered a diversion program like probation. No one wants to ruin someone's life with a felony conviction at 18 years old for stealing blunts. BUT...I don't think MB knew that. I think he was terrified when he saw a cop. He thought he was busted, IMO, and damned terrified.hiHe didn't know what would happen. Surely, an arrest would plant him in the county jail until his family could post bond. And then his Mom would know he was a thief, a robber, violent! I think he was scared, and young, and...did something incredibly stupid. That's JMO, but, I think he wrestled with the cop because he didn't want to get caught.

And, so here we are. Waiting for the rest to come out. The autopsy, IMO, should shine some light.

 

[MyBelle]

I would say by the statement below that the officer definitely suspected that the two were possibly the same in the robbery.

Ferguson officer realized during encounter that Michael Brown might be suspect in robbery, chief says

The officer who shot Ferguson teen Michael Brown stopped Brown and another teen because they were walking in the street, not because of a robbery a few minutes earlier, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said Friday afternoon.

Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects. He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said.

But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_52c40b84-ad90-5f9a-973c-70d628d0be04.html

Thanks. It makes it clear the Officer didn't stop because he thought they were suspects. There was no racial profiling which is what has been implied. He stopped because they called attention to themselves by walking in the street and refused his request to get out of the street.

JMO

 

[Elainera]

Now it's no the officer didn't know but yes he knew. It's one or the other.

I understand it as, at first, when he stopped to talk to Brown and his friend he didn't know, but when he saw the cigars, he put 2 and 2 together. But he didn't stop because he already suspected that they are the robbers.

 

[Simply Caustic]

I'm not a lawyer, but Mr. Google says:

• Although juvenile records are not available to everyone, they can be read by police and other law enforcement agencies, social services agencies, probation departments, and courts. A person's juvenile record can be taken into account by a judge in a later adult court case when a judge is setting the adult's bail or deciding on the length of his or her sentence.
  
  

 

[liljim]

My experience is all after the fact, as it were: They were already convicted. I worked in the diversion program known as Drug Court more recently (as a paralegal), and from what I've seen with applicants to the program, it would depend on any history he had, but this is JMO, and FWIW, in my experience. Less history = much better chance of probation or diversion. MUCH better.

I think he would have been offered a diversion program like probation. No one wants to ruin someone's life with a felony conviction at 18 years old for stealing blunts. BUT...I don't think MB knew that. I think he was terrified when he saw a cop. He thought he was busted, IMO, and damned terrified.hiHe didn't know what would happen. Surely, an arrest would plant him in the county jail until his family could post bond. And then his Mom would know he was a thief, a robber, violent! I think he was scared, and young, and...did something incredibly stupid. That's JMO, but, I think he wrestled with the cop because he didn't want to get caught.

And, so here we are. Waiting for the rest to come out. The autopsy, IMO, should shine some light.

thanx for being reasonable and informed, all of what you say is entirely possible.

regarding much of your speculation about how he might have felt and reacted, i choose to be a little bit more hesitant but - everything you suggest is entirely possible and may be true.

cheers.

 

[katydid23]

thanx for the effort, i think the unarmed and no significant injury resulting from battery is something a judge would deem important, you dont?

regardless thanx for anything you can provide that gives more context than the previously linked items which didnt give much IMO.

The 'no significant injury' is meaningless in a strong arm robbery. The whole point of the term 'strong arm' is the use of intimidation. You don't have to injure anyone, just show them thst you can because of your greater strength. Just like if you use a gun or a knife to rob someone, it doesnt matter if you pull the trigger or cut someone, just the fact that you brandished the weapon makes it an ARMED ROBBERY.

In a strong armed robbery, it is differentiated from shoplifting, because he used his 'show of strength' to intimidate the clerk who asked them to pay for the cigars. It dos not matter that there was no injury.

 

[Frydaddy]

Did the events occur on a public street or in an apartment complex type drive through? As a home health nurse I have been to apartment complexes that have private streets off public streets. Thanks

Public street.

 

[Simply Caustic]

What really raises my eyebrows (when watching the convenience store robbery) is the lack of fear in MB. He's not hesitant. He didn't grab the stuff and run out the damned door, avoiding the clerk.
He robbed that store, and assaulted the clerk, with ease. Walked right back into the clerk's face, as if to say "Want more?"
Doesn't seem the actions of a first-time robber, but that's JMO, of course.

 

[MyBelle]

Well, had he lived to be charged, it's almost certain he would have been charged with several (at least 3) felonies for the robbery, assault of the store clerk, and altercation with the officer, of which I feel certain he would have been convicted, IMO, JMO, etc.

Who care if someone has a juvenile record?? I sure hope the judicial system does!

If a sentencing judge is allowed to know about a juvenile record, I think it would be immensely helpful to the judge to determine appropriate sentencing. A sealed juvenile record is supposed to give the criminal juvenile a SECOND CHANCE to straighten out his life, to stop committing crimes, to reflect on his behavior, and commit to avoiding criminal behavior. A sealed juvie record is a GIFT that should not be squandered. So, if a sentencing judge was aware of a sealed juvie record, in a felon who had just turned 18 just months earlier, it should persuade the judge that the individual has no remorse for his CURRENT criminal behavior, nor any serious motivation to avoid criminal behavior. It would persuade a judge to sentence the individual more harshly, I hope. It would demonstrate that the individual had no plans or goals to change his criminal behavior, and that the reality of the judicial system (which he would have already experienced) was not any kind of deterrent to his current criminal behavior.

In essence, a sealed juvie record, close to crimes committed after age 18, IMO, should prompt a judge to impose maximum sentence/s for current criminal behavior. IDK if it does, but it should ensure the convicted serve maximum terms, IMO.

Does one of our legal experts know? Can a sentencing judge know about a sealed juvenile record?? I sure hope so.

Brown was of legal age. Missouri doesn't automatically expunge juvenile records.

Missouri generally does not allow for the expungement (or sealing) of criminal conviction records. The lone exception is for minors who were convicted of an alcohol possession offense. Otherwise, Missouri adults can expunge arrests that did not result in charges or a conviction. Alternatively, if the individual was charged, the records can only be expunged if the case was dismissed, the prosecutor did not pursue the charges, or the individual was found not guilty.Read more: http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/...issouri-criminal-expungement.htm#ixzz3AWaDbsQ

 

[liljim]

lol there is no point, carry on.

 

[Wysteria]

Wow.. That's even more chutzpah than the parents saying the authorities are assassinating their son's character by showing the footage of the robbery. I think MB himself assassinated his OWN character by robbing and assaulting the store clerk.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mi...-family-accuses-ferguson-police-smear-n181696

This wasn't just a little minor shoplifting of a pack of gum. This was clearly violent criminal behavior, and MB looks perfectly comfortable and confident while robbing and assaulting. He has done this before, IMO- maybe this was just the first time he almost got caught. I'm sorry his mother didn't know that about her son. No mother wants to believe her child is a criminal and a bully. If the family had to release a statement at all, they should have apologized to the store chain AND the clerk on behalf of their son for his criminal behavior and assault, among other things they could have said. How about expressing regret for the loss of property, the riots, the 20+ destroyed police cars? I am just dumbfounded at the defiance and arrogance of this statement and these people. I can't even comprehend that much arrogance and defiance.

IMO, MB would still be alive if he had cooperated with the officer. I know it isn't a popular idea, but after all we've heard today, I believe MB caused his own death. That's my opinion. The officer should not be charged with any crimes, IMO. He wasn't profiling, stalking, etc. he was doing his job, in a dangerous and violent environment.

However, the POTUS, nor anyone in the administration, should NOT comment any further on this situation, and should definitely NOT go to Missouri. OMG, what a cluster. I absolutely cannot believe that anyone there would think the POTUS should make a visit. That is simply outrageous, on a number of levels. This ranks right up there on the outrage meter with the woman who left her 6 months old and 2 yo to bake in a hot car, then got $114K in donations based on her crocodile tears in her mugshot! What is happening in America???

What do they expect the POTUS to say, "if I had a son, he'd look like Michael Brown?" SMH.

And BTW, it is FAR from settled that MB was "surrendering" during this incident. I wish people would stop quoting that as if it was established truth.

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I think that this post should be the best post of the day; especially the portion that was BBM.