MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #2

[katydid23]

I agree that they are linked as to Brown's state of mind, but not as to Wilson's IMO. Brown is dead.

I am not sure what you mean by not being linked in Wilson's mind. I thought it was said that Wilson realized during the interaction with Brown that he was possibly a suspect in the robbery. Brown was carrying the stolen cigars.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

No one is ganging up on you. It may feel like it when you pass along information that is inaccurate, people interested in the truth have a tendency to call people out on that. Is it safe to assume there is no third witness who didn't know Mike, or did you mean three witnesses, two of whom appear to not to have known Mike?

sorry it took so long to hunt down the source...

Three witnesses..

DJ, TM and PC..

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_04e3885b-4131-5e49-b784-33cd3acbe7f1.html

 

[katydid23]

Picking on a little, unarmed guy to steal cigars is a completely different mindset and behavior than getting rough with a cop who he and everyone else knows darn well is armed and may very well be trigger happy when dealing with a black man. I dont think the earlier incident is close enough in circumstance to draw the conclusion that because he behaved one way with the shopkeeper that he would do the same with a cop.

As for rainbows and sunshine, there's no law anywhere that says citizens of this country must bow and scrape before LE or be shot in punishment for disrespect.


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I disagree that it is a completely different mindset. It is a criminal, bullying mindset. That was a felony to push that clerk and steal those cigars. Then when he walked down the middle of the street, carrying the stolen merchandise, and refused to get out of the middle of the street, when initially asked, his mindset was revealed. He was being obstinate and uncooperative.

No one said he needed to bow and scrape. But he cannot defy direct orders nor can he physically assault someone.

 

[cady]

Is there any statement anywhere that Wilson was attempting to arrest Brown. We need Wilson's statements CONTEMPORANEOUS with the shooting incident. We do not have them. We have not heard that Brown was resisting arrest. And if he was, for what exactly he was being arrested. JMO

 

[Gardenlady]

I did not say he deserved to be shot. I keep seeing this being thrown at those of us who are still reviewing the case as a whole and looking at both sides. Witness accounts say he got into it with the officer while the officer was still in the car so he was more then disrespecting an officer.

And nowhere did I say that you said that.

I addressed your characterization of MBs behavior towards the cop, and said that disrespect, or failing to act in a rainbows and sunshine way, are not enough to warrant being shot.


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[katydid23]

Is there any statement anywhere that Wilson was attempting to arrest Brown. We need Wilson's statements CONTEMPORANEOUS with the shooting incident. We do not have them. We have not heard that Brown was resisting arrest. And if he was, for what exactly he was being arrested. JMO

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d3acbe7f1.html


So what does it mean that Wilson ' was attempting' to place Brown in the car? Sounds to me like Brown was resisting arrest right there.

 

[Gardenlady]

I disagree that it is a completely different mindset. It is a criminal, bullying mindset. That was a felony to push that clerk and steal those cigars. Then when he walked down the middle of the street, carrying the stolen merchandise, and refused to get out of the middle of the street, when initially asked, his mindset was revealed. He was being obstinate and uncooperative.

No one said he needed to bow and scrape. But he cannot defy direct orders nor can he physically assault someone.

We do not know that he assaulted the cop. There is no footage. We have the cops word and the witnesses words.

While it's certain that he assaulted the clerk, there is a world of difference between strong arming a much smaller, unarmed person, and trying to strong arm or batter an armed cop. Criminal does not equal stupid - I do not buy that just because MB felt he could get away with roughing up a smaller unarmed man that he felt like he "owned the street" and felt invincible enough to take on an armed cop while he himself was unarmed.


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[katydid23]

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d3acbe7f1.html=================================

Interesting that his hands were raised as he was attempting to flee, as in attempted to resist the arrest. He was running from the officer, who was trying to arrest him. Just because his hands were raised does not mean it is lawful to RUN AWAY from being arrested.

And she says the officer ATTEMPTED to place him in the car. So sounds like Brown was resisting arrest right from the jump.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d3acbe7f1.html


So what does it mean that Wilson ' was attempting' to place Brown in the car? Sounds to me like Brown was resisting arrest right there.

and his hands were in the air..that you skipped over...yes, resisting arrest also doesn't warrant a death sentence. Why when his hands were raised did he not place MB under arrest?

Why the need to empty his weapon into MB's body?

I'll never understand how someone could be okay with police abuse of power/authority. He doesn't not have carte blanche to kill someone, his job is to uphold the law. Give the alleged perp due process. No judge, jury and executioner without being given a DP sentence.

 

[katydid23]

We do not know that he assaulted the cop. There is no footage. We have the cops word and the witnesses words.

While it's certain that he assaulted the clerk, there is a world of difference between strong arming a much smaller, unarmed person, and trying to strong arm or batter an armed cop. Criminal does not equal stupid - I do not buy that just because MB felt he could get away with roughing up a smaller unarmed man that he felt like he "owned the street" and felt invincible enough to take on an armed cop while he himself was unarmed.


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this witness describes Brown resisting arrest, physically:

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d3acbe7f1.html


If Wilson " was ATTEMPTING" to put Brown in the car, then Brown was resisting arrest. Simple as that.

 

[Gardenlady]

I disagree that it is a completely different mindset. It is a criminal, bullying mindset. That was a felony to push that clerk and steal those cigars. Then when he walked down the middle of the street, carrying the stolen merchandise, and refused to get out of the middle of the street, when initially asked, his mindset was revealed. He was being obstinate and uncooperative.

No one said he needed to bow and scrape. But he cannot defy direct orders nor can he physically assault someone.

BBM - your last paragraph is, to me, the heart of the matter.

He "cannot defy a direct order".

I guess what I don't understand is - some people seem to feel that defying a cop's order, or trying to flee, or being disrespectful or even resisting arrest - are valid reasons to use deadly force, even when the one doing the defying is unarmed.

I don't think any of these things are valid reasons to shoot someone.





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[Sonya610]

I'm not excusing the alleged robbery, but have issue with blaming the victim, and I've seen it right here in this forum. Fact is, we all have our opinions, and that's how it should be, but we're not supposed to go victim-blaming here. JMO, and I hope that it dies down. We need to wait for official facts, not rumor or hearsay or the media's spin, which is going every which way.

Perhaps it comes down to defining who the victim is vs. those who defend the perpetrator regardless of facts/evidence.

 

[Gardenlady]

this witness describes Brown resisting arrest, physically:

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d3acbe7f1.html


If Wilson " was ATTEMPTING" to put Brown in the car, then Brown was resisting arrest. Simple as that.

Resisting arrest, while unarmed, should not be punishable by death.


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[katydid23]

and his hands were in the air..that you skipped over...yes, resisting arrest also doesn't warrant a death sentence. Why when his hands were raised did he not place MB under arrest?

Why the need to empty his weapon into MB's body?

I'll never understand how someone could be okay with police abuse of power/authority. He doesn't not have carte blanche to kill someone, his job is to uphold the law. Give the alleged perp due process. No judge, jury and executioner without being given a DP sentence.

Yes, his hands were reportedly raised, AS HE RAN FROM THE ARREST. You cannot run away from a patrol car, and then just raise your hands to make it OKAY. Brown physically resisted the arrest from the moment Wilson tried to put him in the car. So putting your hands up, AS YOU RUN AWAY is not going to mean you can just run off from a felony robbery charge.

 

[Gardenlady]

Perhaps it comes down to defining who the victim is vs. those who defend the perpetrator regardless of facts/evidence.

I don't know, I tend to think the man who ended up dead and riddled with bullets is probably the victim. The cop still has his life and his pay.


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[SwampMama]

All too familiar, like a play out of Zimmerman play book..

Trash the victim to justify the murder...

I don't see where MB is being trashed. I saw a video which accurately and undeniably showed him to be aggressive and brazen as he stole the cigars. If this video is seen as trashing him then the only one to blame for that is MB. He is the one who determined his actions in that store on that day. I think it accurately depicts someone who is definitly not a "gentle giant". When paired with the fact that MB chose to walk down the middle of the street after the theft, it paints a picture of a man who is not concerned with laying low and avoiding detection. Even after the cops first warning, he continued to stay in the street. To me he comes off as quite provocative, almost daring anyone to stop him for stealing or from walking down the middle of the street, boldly holding his ill gotten goods from his strong arm robbery.

 

[Gardenlady]

Yes, his hands were reportedly raised, AS HE RAN FROM THE ARREST. You cannot run away from a patrol car, and then just raise your hands to make it OKAY. Brown physically resisted the arrest from the moment Wilson tried to put him in the car. So putting your hands up, AS YOU RUN AWAY is not going to mean you can just run off from a felony robbery charge.

Why shoot though? He's unarmed and with his hands up. So what if he flees? Call for backup and chase on foot. If you lose him then you investigate later by the typical methods. Everyone lives.


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[katydid23]

Resisting arrest, while unarmed, should not be punishable by death.


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No, it shouldnt be. But if you struggle with the officer over his weapon, then it becomes a life or death struggle.

So if an officer is attacked in his squad car,punched in the face, and fights to keep his gun away from the attacker, you don't think he will be in fighting mode at that point, to save his life and the public at large?

 

[Hatfield]

Piaget Crenshaw, 19, said she was waiting for a ride to work when she saw a police officer attempting to place Brown in the squad car.

She then said she saw the teen, hands in the air, attempt to flee. Several shots hit Brown as he ran, Crenshaw said. She complied with a request that she give photos of the scene to authorities.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...d3acbe7f1.html=================================

Interesting that his hands were raised as he was attempting to flee, as in attempted to resist the arrest. He was running from the officer, who was trying to arrest him. Just because his hands were raised does not mean it is lawful to RUN AWAY from being arrested.

And she says the officer ATTEMPTED to place him in the car. So sounds like Brown was resisting arrest right from the jump.

The number of shots and placement of the shots are going to be very important IMO, and here is why.

Because lets just suppose the 1st 2 shots were in his back and somehow he turns around (maybe involuntary reaction due to pain) and gets blasted like 5 or more shots as he was going down or maybe last couple shots were even as he was on the ground.
And lets suppose the guy was totally unarmed.

There was a recent case where a pharmacy store owner shot and killed a robber. The pharmacy owner shot the guy and kept on shooting as the guy went down.

The verdict in that case was murder and the jurors stated one of the main reasons was because of the extra multiple shots the owner fired even after the guy was stopped.

So, IMO, I do think it will become important the placement and number of shots the officer fired, and if the guy was even close enough to him to cause him any danger to himself.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Yes, his hands were reportedly raised, AS HE RAN FROM THE ARREST. You cannot run away from a patrol car, and then just raise your hands to make it OKAY. Brown physically resisted the arrest from the moment Wilson tried to put him in the car. So putting your hands up, AS YOU RUN AWAY is not going to mean you can just run off from a felony robbery charge.

An arrest is due process, not death.

but he ran away and stopped after the first bullet hit his body? Do you not see that an arrest could have been made at that time instead the officer chose to execute him?

How is that okay with anyone?

It could have been anyone's son or daughter..

Shameful act from someone who is to uphold the law, not execute...SMH