MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #20

[katydid23]

C'mon katydid. We both know it's not just about what you show them but how you show them, the order it's presented in and so forth. No different than the same word can have multiple meanings depending on how it is said.

Two female prosecutors, one of them African American, will be presenting the evidence. ALL of the evidence. If this jury wants to see the officer charged, after seeing all of the evidence, they will do so.

 

[Linda7NJ]

[/B]

And they are winning!!!!!!!!!

Reminds me of winning ...the Charlie Sheen form


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[seedz]

THere has been more info released since then. He did hear have the opportunity to hear the BOLO and he did see the cigars. But that is not even that important. The crucial question is WHO was the aggressor?

'Words' were exchanged? A cop tells 2 teens to stop blocking traffic and get out of the road, and 'words' are exchanged?

You are right, that is when 'Johnson said' Wilson grabbed Brown. But that is not the truth about what happened. There are witnesses who saw what really happened. And forensics which show what happened. And that is why Wilson has not been arrested, imo/

Johnson made up that story. It is hogwash.

What witness has contradicted what dorian has said besides im assuming ow?

Please not the friend of the grl friend who remains faceless

What are the lies you are referring to?

And what the case hinges on is what happened over 80 ft from the suv

 

[seedz]

Two female prosecutors, one of them African American, will be presenting the evidence. ALL of the evidence. If this jury wants to see the officer charged, after seeing all of the evidence, they will do so.

Hopefully

But the prosecution hasnt even recommended a charge which is highly unusual and favors ow

 

[BirdycatNY]

Maybe

But to release the video before you release info about ow left a bad taste in my mouth

Seedz: here is a link to show relevance of the evidence.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ld-be-admissible-at-a-federal-criminal-trial/

I don't think it's a "smear" campaign but if people are not familiar with rules of evidence, FOIL requests or outside pressures of MSM it may appear that way. It's a delicate balancing act for LE so I give them the benefit of the doubt. Regardless, it's relevant to MB's behavior. just imo

 

[katydid23]

Yeah, I saw that. Thanks. So they have maybe a dozen tickets spread throughout 60,000 seats or whatever the dome holds?

Ha. Pretty much. I suppose they think they are going to all get on the field somehow and start chanting No Justice No Peace----I hope they have medical insurance...

 

[reedus23]

Thank you for ack'mt ^ that^ is your opinion, and
that is subject to change, IF some Earth shattering tangible evidence comes to light.

For the last several weeks of this case, as well as other cases, you - and others - have presented a lot of MSM material & info
(hopefully facts). From this you and other have made cogent arguments supporting your theory about shooting as justified.

For ~first 2 wks, I was on the fence, at least' til
1.Swisher vid,
2. faux-tholgist Parcell's coulda, possible, mighta pronouncements,
3. I reviewed DJ's stmts in a couple diff interviews, inc. one w his atty Freeman Bosley by CNN's Wolf
4. Crump & Co's ack'mt re major/serious altercation w MB & LE for gun in car & his comment that MB did some typical kid/teen stuff.
^ main factors^ re my opinion ATM,

Some here on W/S talk about ODW's spotless record, examplary service, medal of commendation, etc. What if was not?

If solid info surfaced that ODW had propensity to useexcessive force,
say, citizen complaints in his former PD and FPD, and documented & reported to Chief(s) at the time (not coming up after MB death),
Sometimes tasing, sometimes baton, and one shooting.
internal affairs had investigated, found cause for 3 reprimands, for 3 suspensions, ea. of 1 wk unpaid leave.
Most recent was 6 mo ago.
IOW, a pattern of use of excessive force in LE duties. Against whites & blacks equally, if that matters.
All ^this^ is just hypothetical only, for this discussion.

Something like ^that^ w/make me rethink and probably (undoubtedly?) push me to conclude shooting was unjustified.

For those believing shooting was justified, what would it take to make you rethink? To switch to unjustified?
Linda7NJ, can you start? Would ^that^ do it for you? Is that Earth shattering?
Anyone else, what would it take to make you do a 180, to conclude justified?

Your discussion of his past does make me wonder why the County didn't hire him when Jennings PD was disbanded. <modship>
For me, it all comes down to what happened 100+ feet from the vehicle. Not some robbery video. Not a history of excessive force. All of those things, while they paint the bigger picture are not determinative. What exactly would establish it one way or the other 100+ from the vehicle is hard to say. There are so many variables.

 

[Linda7NJ]

What witness has contradicted what dorian has said besides im assuming ow?

Please not the friend of the grl friend who remains faceless

What are the lies you are referring to?

And what the case hinges on is what happened over 80 ft from the suv

IMO I'm
Glad you joined but it's really not fair to keep asking what we have already discussed to death. Please read the media thread. Every witness statement given can be seen there.


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[seedz]

He had to release the video. His town was about to implode. That video took the air out of the balloon. Everything calmed down a bit as some of the outrage was tampered down. It put a dent in the 'choir boy walking to Grandmas house' narrative.

No the video caused even more of a outcry

 

[katydid23]

Hopefully

But the prosecution hasnt even recommended a charge which is highly unusual and favors ow

But what if the officers story is corroborated by the evidence? Should the prosecutor charge him, if MB was the aggressor that attacked him and grabbed for his gun, attempting to kill him?

 

[Lovejac]

Okay, I sacrificed an hour, and took one for the team. I actually sat and watched the entire hour of Rev Al Sharpton show just now. I was really curious to see if he was going to mention the Rams game. Either to encourage or discourage the protests. He didn't say a peep. Actually never mentioned Ferguson. Although he spent the entire show on the problems in the NFL.

You should be sainted for that :blowkiss:

 

[katydid23]

No the video caused even more of a outcry

No, it didn't. It upset the hard core protestors. But others, like my mixed race daughter, who had initially supported MB, began to wonder. She sat back and waited for more evidence after finding out that info. They lost a lot of momentum after the video was released. It wasnt just a choir boy on the way to grandmas' like they had been selling.

 

[Klood-N]

What witness has contradicted what dorian has said besides im assuming ow?

Please not the friend of the grl friend who remains faceless

What are the lies you are referring to?

And what the case hinges on is what happened over 80 ft from the suv

Dorian contradicted Dorian. Facts contradicted Dorian.


Regarding Officer Wilson's acct and witnesses:

&#8220;He pulled up ahead of them. And then he got a call-in that there was a strong-arm robbery. And, they gave a description. And, he&#8217;s looking at them and they got something in their hands and it looks like it could be what, you know those cigars or whatever. So he goes in reverse back to them. Tries to get out of his car. They slam his door shut violently. I think he said Michael did. And, then he opened the car again. He tried to get out. He stands up.

And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and them Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off.

Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And, Darren&#8217;s first protocol is to pursue. So, he stands up and yells, &#8220;Freeze!&#8221; Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him&#8230; And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something.&#8221;

http://danaloeschradio.com/alleged-friend-of-officer-darren-wilson-offers-his-side/


A caller to the St. Louis radio program The Dana Show, on Radio America, gave what she said was the officer's version of events. Her account accurately matches what Wilson has told investigators, a source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-michael-brown-dueling-narratives/


Wilson was coming off another case in the neighborhood on Aug. 9 when he ordered Michael Brown and his friend Dorian Johnson to stop walking in the middle of the road because they were obstructing traffic...&#8220;They ignored him and the officer started to get out of the car to tell them to move," the source said. "They shoved him right back in, that&#8217;s when Michael Brown leans in and starts beating Officer Wilson in the head and the face."
...there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman&#8217;s firearm, resulting in the gun going off &#8211; although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?"...Brown charged Wilson, prompting the officer to fire at least six shots at him

- a source close to the department's top brass
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

He has told investigators that he struggled with Brown in his police cruiser and opened fire out of fear for his life after Brown charged at him, according to people familiar with Wilson&#8217;s interview with investigators.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...0e203c-2757-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html


&#8220;Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop&#8217;s version of events in shooting,&#8221; St. Louis Post-Dispatch crime reporter Christine Byers tweeted
http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/witnesses-say-ferguson-teen-attacked-cop-before-shooting/

The comments from the workers differ from those made by St. Louis County Police Chief Joe Belmar, who said Brown physically assaulted Wilson and reached for Wilson's gun. Some witnesses also have said Brown assaulted the officer.
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local...ward/15456519/

Link to 80 feet from SUV, please.

 

[Lovejac]

Ha. Pretty much. I suppose they think they are going to all get on the field somehow and start chanting No Justice No Peace----I hope they have medical insurance...

Well I'm fairly certain............

:nevermind: not the right thread for that

 

[BirdycatNY]

Seedz, I have a question for you b/c you think evidence shows so far OW was not justified. How do you explain the gun shot pattern on MB? In specifics if you can please. Witness stories aside because we haven't heard from all witnesses or GJ witness testimony.

 

[LambChop]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...el-Brown-*Media-Timelines-Maps*-No-Discussion

This is our timeline and media thread. Please feel free to read it to all the questions you might have.

Also where is it reported on MSM that it has been verified that MB was 100 foot from the SUV. I cannot find it anywhere other than rumors. This needs to be verified before any more discussion that 100 foot is based on fact.

Thanks, Lambchop

 

[reedus23]

And mine in red.

Seedz, in response to several of your bolded contentions, my responses in blue.


"Not to mention according to the ferguson pd wilson had no knowledge of the robbery"

That's not what was said. Chief Jackson said FPD's portion of the investigation only went up to the initial contact with Michael, and that the initial contact was due to Michael & DJ blocking traffic. See video here: http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/live-...ief-tom-jackson-speaks-at-a-press-conference/


FPD records indicate no one in the FPD had seen anyone matching the robbery suspect's description as of 7:00 that night.

"shots to browns arms and hand either occured when he was running away from wilson at one point or when he had his hands up"

Michael's hand injury likely occurred in the car.

PARKS: Nancy, from the evidence that we have so far, there was something that happened between Michael and the officer while the officer was in the car, without question. I think that the evidence in this case, though, will have to look at what the injuries to the officer and the injuries to Michael that may be attributed to whatever happened as Michael stood outside of the car.

"that cut mark plus the other injuries to Michael`s hand plus whatever injuries to the officer, then you can start explaining what may have happened in the car."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html

D. PARKS: Let me explain to you a few things. Number one, you`re going to notice that there`s an injury to his hand. That particular injury probably came at a close range, you`re going to find out later. Second, when we talk about front to back -- front to back mainly...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Let me...

D. PARKS: ... applies to two things...

GRACE: ... let me hear what you`re saying. You`re saying that the gunshot wound to his right hand is at close range, although the autopsy is saying no shots at close range.

D. PARKS: Well, let me explain it like this. It`s a big gash.

GRACE: What?

D. PARKS: It`s a big gash, so as you hear more about it, it`s a big gash on his hand.

GRACE: So it`s not -- are you telling me it`s not a gunshot?

D. PARKS: Now, how that`s -- no, it is a gunshot wound caused by the gun, but a bullet, but it`s a rather large gash in his hand.

GRACE: Well, why do you say it`s at close range?

D. PARKS: Secondly -- well, it`s pretty big and it`s pretty open.

GRACE: That doesn`t mean close range.

D. PARKS: Now, how and when it happened, I`ll leave that to the experts.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1408/18/ng.01.html


The autopsy by St. Louis County chief medical examiner Mary Case, released to state prosecutors late Friday, found that Brown, 18, had six gunshot wounds to the head and chest and was shot from the front
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...016ef8-26f4-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html


Not sure the point being established so I'll pass instead of guessing.

"None of the witnesses actually have said brown was shot in the back"
"It struck my friend in the back."
Video here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uson-missouri-teen-shooting-witness/13992387/

If any comment was made in the fog of war, I'd say it is this one. I suspect he assumed he was hit in the back as he was fired upon while running away.

"wilson had to have been made to feel threatened."

No, he had to believe Michael was a threat to himself or others. There's a difference. Multiple laws and info regarding what constitutes a justifiable and/or excusable homicide have been posted here. Supreme Court ruling:

This case requires us to determine the constitutionality of the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of an apparently unarmed suspected felon. We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=471&invol=1


I think their comment is accurate. Maybe not a complete statement of the law, but under the facts of this case as known so far, an accurate statement. I have seen zero evidence that MB posed a threat to the public at the time of the fatal shots. Certainly no articulable threat to the public. Also, you left out of the law the requirement under the statute that the use of deadly force must have been immediately necessary to effect the arrest.

"Wilson played judge, jury and executioner that day"
This phrase gets old. The shooting occurred as Officer Wilson attempted to apprehend a violent suspect who had already assaulted him. Apprehending suspects is his job. Michael was a suspect in an armed robbery and even the family's attorney admits both Darren and Michael were in an altercation at the car with injuries. Michael also struggled for the gun.

The source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/2...en-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Finally, police officers may use deadly force to stop or apprehend a fleeing felon, but only if the suspect is armed or has committed a crime that involved the infliction or threatened infliction of serious injury or death.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide


But he did. The question is, was he justified in doing so. And once again, left out the part of the law that the use of deadly force was immediately necessary to effect the arrest.

"suggest he purposedly punched wilson"
I can't decipher what this means. Michael accidentally punched Officer Wilson?

 

[seedz]

No, it didn't. It upset the hard core protestors. But others, like my mixed race daughter, who had initially supported MB, began to wonder. She sat back and waited for more evidence after finding out that info. They lost a lot of momentum after the video was released. It wasnt just a choir boy on the way to grandmas' like they had been selling.

It did ...

Im black, know plenty of blk people and i have family in st louis

There were outcrys that ferguson pd was on a smear campaign

Things didnt begin to simmer down until officer ron johnson took over and eric holder made his trip to ferguson

 

[seedz]

But what if the officers story is corroborated by the evidence? Should the prosecutor charge him, if MB was the aggressor that attacked him and grabbed for his gun, attempting to kill him?

They shouldnt have brought the case before a gj than lol

Its just an easy way out for mccullough

 

[reedus23]

The robbery video is relevant to show MB's state of mind and behavior shortly before MB/OW incident. Admissible relevant evidence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ld-be-admissible-at-a-federal-criminal-trial/

I agree with this. The video shows what it shows, which is a crime. Suffice it to say that what I saw in the video wasn't as shocking to the conscience for me as it is for others here.