MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #7

[belimom]

4. A couple wanted a baby.

That's the best-case scenario as it would mean Lisa is probably okay...

 

[dovebar]

Why haven't the police explained what happened with the tip of someone seeing a baby being carried one block over in the middle of the night?

It really sounds like they couldn't go anywhere with that, so they just decided to pressure the mom.

Really, there are so many people who could be suspects here, including anyone who had been told that the dad would begin working nights. The unlocked door makes sense to me because ANYTIME your routine changes, it can be "off" - suppose it was always him who locked up at night, and they had been so distracted by life and kids that they hadn't coordinated who would do that - or she assumed he would when he left, etc.? Many people who live in other areas of the country from me don't lock their doors at all, but I know I have failed to lock mine, which is why I try to check - yet after a hard day or two, I have gone to sleep without checking because I'm that tired. It's scary the next morning to realize you've done it, but it's human, especially when your routine is off.

And a dumpster fire in the same area where the child was seen being carried?

The police are really going to have to find this child's body and some concrete evidence to the mom to convince me. It sounds like they are focusing on "low hanging fruit" of "it must be her" because they are not able to follow other leads - even though there are other leads.

Have they talked to everyone on the job site, who saw the father was there at every moment? Did none of those other men go out to pick up food or otherwise leave the job site? Did none of those other men make a phone call to tell someone that the guy's family was home alone? Did the parents not tell anyone else that he would now be working nights? Did no one else know that that family typically didn't lock their doors? Was there no one else in the neighborhood watching that house for that particularly cute little girl and looking for an opportunity that they just happened to find that night? Sex offenders do "case" neighborhoods and both stalk victims and look for opportunities.

If I were interrogated for 11 hours, I'd leave too, and go out and post flyers and tell the cops, call me when you have some leads, or feel free to follow me around and ask questions, but we're going out to look for our daughter.

 

[IrishMist]

Lots of things bother me on this case. But the biggest is, "What loving, concerned, caring Mother only checks on a sick baby ONCE between 7:30 and 10:30 and than not again until hubby comes home at 4 am? The moms I know would have that baby tucked in their arms sleeping with the baby so they could hear every single breath.

I guess the moms I know are just different.

That's all Ozzie & Harriet, but she also had 2 other children with her that night. Maybe she took care of them, cleaned up dinner dishes, got the boys ready for bed, things like that. As a parent of more than one child, I can't see going through my normal routine with a baby tucked in my arms so I can hear every single breath.

Lisa had a cold. Not pneumonia, not some life threatening breathing disease, a cold.

 

[Seaturtle]

I am struggling with the inconsistencies that would require us to believe this case would be the "perfect storm" for a random kidnapper:
1) motive - wanting to kidnap a baby
2) opportunity - knowing there is a baby in a crib you could get to without being discovered
3) dumb luck - 3 other people in the house (and perhaps a dog but I'm not sure about that) who all heard nothing that would alarm the mother of a sick child
4) timing - father just started a new job that night.
5) lack of fear - the kidnapper would have to be brazen enough to tamper with a window, then walk into the house through a door, leave one or more lights on and then walk out carrying a baby and multiple cell phones.
6) expertise - if there is no physical evidence inside the house of an intruder (I do not know whether this is the case or not), the kidnapper would also have been experienced or intelligent enough to do all of of this without leaving any evidence behind.

I cannot imagine how the stars would have to align for those circumstances to fall into place for someone with the motive to steal a child. I am guessing that the more the pieces begin to fall into place for LE, the more they have to question the "perfect storm" as well.

 

[BeanE]

Still going through these early articles from Oct 4. Here's one with a reference to dad getting home at 3:30am:

Police say Lisa's father discovered her missing around 3:30 a.m. Tuesday when he got home from work.

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-100-off...-baby-in-kansas-city-20111004,0,3181219.story

 

[Volume]

I can't seen to get an answer to the question:

Have the brothers been questioned?

They could provide IMPT info. Remember Elizabeth Smart's little sister.

Why are they not spoken about in any media coverage except by mother vaguely?

 

[wfgodot]

That's the best-case scenario as it would mean Lisa is probably okay...

Yep. Hoping and praying that the California surveillance tape might bear fruit along this line. Can't say I expect it to though. Evidently, the Love's in St. Joseph surveillance tape from the first few hours after baby Lisa disappeared didn't pan out.

Ah well. One can always hope.

 

[LadyPirate]

This is just a scenario in my head..........

Sick child
Whining all day, fever, runny nose, etc.
Whining, whining, wanting to be held all day.
Mom is busy. Laundry, cleaning, cooking, etc
Whining baby, over extended Mom, that last nerve snaps.

All this I can basically understand. Doesn't make it right, but I can understand.
I raised 3 kids and kept grandkids for several years. I do understand.

However, baby falls out of bed, baby is accidently overdosed, some other type of accident, WHY would you not just call emergency responders instead of hiding the body? THIS is what I don't understand and so many seem to think this is a possibility.

I'm still not sure the parents were involved, and that is because I just can't believe parents actually would do this. They do. I know that, but it's just unreal to me that they do.

 

[peeples]

I can't seen to get an answer to the question:

Have the brothers been questioned?

They could provide IMPT info. Remember Elizabeth Smart's little sister.

Why are they not spoken about in any media coverage except by mother vaguely?

Maybe LE asked to speak to them in depth with a forensic interviewer and mom said no, hence LE saying parents won't cooperate.
Just a thought

 

[shefner]

We don't know that the door was left unlocked when Deborah went to bed, merely that when Jeremy came home, it was unlocked. A lot of people have a cell phone station in their houses, with the chargers, and that's where they are at night. I don't understand your sequence of checking on the kids - and no, I wouldn't "freak" if a mobile child wasn't in his bed and the lights were on in the home. I'd think the kid got a bowl of cereal or something, and was sleeping in another bed.

If I recall correctly, Lisa's parents said the door was left unlocked. I need to look that up, however, just to have a link.

Also, I understand about having a charging station. Our family has 5 iphones, ipod, ipad and 4 computers...so we have lots of charging going on. We also have a home phone....so I don't always have my cell in my bedroom at night. However, if this family does not have a home phone, then not having a cell phone in your room at night makes no sense. I can relate this to when I am away at a hotel, away from my family. I keep my phone with me at all times...that is my link to my husband, children, parents. Since mom was alone that night, I can't imagine not having a phone in her room. What if hubby calls and she missed it? What if he broke down in his van...or needed her? What if her parents got sick? If mom didn't wake up when an intruder entered the house, turning on every light in the house, then mom likely would not have heard a phone call ringing from the living room charging station.

If you read the father's statement about checking on the kids, you will notice he would have to pass Lisa's door to check on the boys first. I can't speak for everyone, but if my 6 or 8 year olds were up getting cereal at 3 or 4 am, I would be surprised. Maybe I am unusual, but my 4 children stayed in their beds in the nighttime. If they were sick, or afraid, or thirsty, they came to get me.

To me, logic would stand to reason that if one of the sons was not in his bed and daddy went down to check on baby Lisa and she was not in her bed, then why would he freak? Perhaps both Lisa, who had been sick, and the son were sleeping with mommy. If he did not freak over the son why freak over the baby? The idea of mobility does not enter my mind. Your logical train of thought says, "Gee, two of little ones are sleeping with mommy while I am away on my first night at work."

In this case, my heart would already be racing from the moment I pulled into the driveway. Father said he noticed unusual things as he approached the home. He sees a window that looks tampered with...and sees all the lights on. Alert. In his mind, he might be thinking, something isn't right here. As he approaches the front door, he notices it is unlocked. That's not good. Another alert. Then he enters the home and sees the house lit up...and there on the bar, at the charging station, the phones are all gone. Another alert. THEN he begins checking on the family. The first door he would approach is Lisa's...but he does not stop there. Instead he travels on back to the boy's rooms. One boy is not in bed. ALERT. To me, this would be a freak out moment. Not simply the fact that my son is not in his bed, but taking into consideration all of the alerts that have led up to this discovery.

 

[laytonian]

Did Baby Lisa wake up at any time during the hours from 7:30 to 10:30 when DB goes and checks on her before bed? When my babies were that young (and even through toddler age) would wake up often when sick with a cold. It is so uncomfortable for them when sleeping and they can't breathe through their nose.

And, I brought them to bed with me. However, that got them in the habit of sleeping with me until they were 4-5. LOL

AND....what's with all that "junk" in the baby's bed.

The rumors about the parents taking money for interviews, are apparently true -- because Nightline (ABC News) had video inside the home. They showed the bedroom, and all the stuff in that baby's crib. It makes absolutely NO sense for all that stuff to be in that bed.

I am bothered by the plastic "storage box" lids. Those lids are the tops of containers that would fit a small child.

I don't think that baby was in that bed, the night she disappeared.

 

[dovebar]

I am struggling with the inconsistencies that would require us to believe this case would be the "perfect storm" for a random kidnapper:
1) motive - wanting to kidnap a baby
2) opportunity - knowing there is a baby in a crib you could get to without being discovered
3) dumb luck - 3 other people in the house (and perhaps a dog but I'm not sure about that) who all heard nothing that would alarm the mother of a sick child
4) timing - father just started a new job that night.
5) lack of fear - the kidnapper would have to be brazen enough to tamper with a window, then walk into the house through a door, leave one or more lights on and then walk out carrying a baby and multiple cell phones.
6) expertise - if there is no physical evidence inside the house of an intruder (I do not know whether this is the case or not), the kidnapper would also have been experienced or intelligent enough to do all of of this without leaving any evidence behind.

I cannot imagine how the stars would have to align for those circumstances to fall into place for someone with the motive to steal a child. I am guessing that the more the pieces begin to fall into place for LE, the more they have to question the "perfect storm" as well.

Yet that's the scenario in sensational cases like Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klass, and Madelyn McCann. Motive meets opportunity, and it takes just a few seconds. The parents come under suspicion and cops waste a lot of time and ignore leads.

 

[Blue Ridge]

Joe Vitale, a spokesman for the Kansas City Fire Department, said the dumpster fire was reported at 2:27 a.m. Tuesday. The fire was at an apartment complex at 4897 NE 37th St.The dumpster is less than a half mile from the missing baby's home.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15642798/authorities-search-joco-landfill-for-missing-baby-lisa


That is remarkably close to the reported phone call at 2:30 A.M.

Yes it is, the same basic time, and then we ALSO have a possible sighting of a man (or someone "appearing" to be a man) toting a baby down the road in the middle of the night....do we have a time for that sighting? It seems way too coincidental to me.... three odd things altogether in the middle of the night.... the very same night that Lisa disappears.

And we have heard nothing more (that I know of) about the person toting the baby. Is that because it turned out to be legitimate (someone else came forward and it was determined to be THEIR baby they were toting in the middle of the night down the road) OR is it because it does mean something and it's being held close to the vest?

 

[natsound]

If Lisa was truly taken by this teen would there not be a BOLO by now. If the teen is present in her home where is Lisa? Taking Lisa elsewhere and returning home just doesn't add up for me.

Unless the teen did something horrible to the baby, then killed the baby.

But I still lean toward the mom, not the teen. Do we know if the teen is male or female?

 

[Jayarre]

This is just a scenario in my head..........

Sick child
Whining all day, fever, runny nose, etc.
Whining, whining, wanting to be held all day.
Mom is busy. Laundry, cleaning, cooking, etc
Whining baby, over extended Mom, that last nerve snaps.

All this I can basically understand. Doesn't make it right, but I can understand.
I raised 3 kids and kept grandkids for several years. I do understand.

However, baby falls out of bed, baby is accidently overdosed, some other type of accident, WHY would you not just call emergency responders instead of hiding the body? THIS is what I don't understand and so many seem to think this is a possibility.

I'm still not sure the parents were involved, and that is because I just can't believe parents actually would do this. They do. I know that, but it's just unreal to me that they do.

Perhaps to keep the other children. If they were negligent the bio mom and dad might try for custody.

 

[tlcya]

at around 4:00 on this Fox video they discuss the possibility of a 2:30 am phone call but in "hypothetical" terms

if there was a phone call made LE would be able to establish that, etc etc

[ame]http://video.foxnews.com/v/1206812569001/report-mother-of-missing-baby-failed-lie-detector-test[/ame]

I can find no other links regarding the 2:30 am call that are not blogs or comments in comment section. No MSM that I can find. I did see this info reported in an article format on a Fox affiliate yesterday but it would appear that article has now been edited to remove reference to the "source close to LE" or "close to investigation" and any reference to a 2:30 call.

Wonder if Fox got smacked for this? Regardless, I am gonna take all this phone call stuff with a huge grain of salt. It smacks of sensationalism to me.

 

[shefner]

I am struggling with the inconsistencies that would require us to believe this case would be the "perfect storm" for a random kidnapper:
1) motive - wanting to kidnap a baby
2) opportunity - knowing there is a baby in a crib you could get to without being discovered
3) dumb luck - 3 other people in the house (and perhaps a dog but I'm not sure about that) who all heard nothing that would alarm the mother of a sick child
4) timing - father just started a new job that night.
5) lack of fear - the kidnapper would have to be brazen enough to tamper with a window, then walk into the house through a door, leave one or more lights on and then walk out carrying a baby and multiple cell phones.
6) expertise - if there is no physical evidence inside the house of an intruder (I do not know whether this is the case or not), the kidnapper would also have been experienced or intelligent enough to do all of of this without leaving any evidence behind.

I cannot imagine how the stars would have to align for those circumstances to fall into place for someone with the motive to steal a child. I am guessing that the more the pieces begin to fall into place for LE, the more they have to question the "perfect storm" as well.

Admirable post. Succinct and well-developed. Thank you.

 

[yllek]

It was the parents who told the press about the cell phones being taken with Lisa. Again, why? If they knew that LE was holding back the info so as not to jeaopardize the investigation, why spill it to the public? It doesn't assist the public in the search for Lisa one bit. This is very incriminating to me. I think LE knew about the missing phones right off (no reason for the parents to keep that from LE whether an intruder took them or they discarded them themselves). I think the parent(s) wanted to get out in front of this eventually being released by LE or someone else. Same with releasing info about the failed poly and gapped time line. Offensively defensive - put it out there first from their angle, while sympathy is high. Doesn't mean they are guilty of harming Lisa, but definitely want to control how they come off. I will not be surprised if there are concerning issues/details related to the parent(s) yet to be revealed. MOO.

Though not yet confirmed, I believe the 2:30 a.m. text to/from Debbie on one of the missing phones exists. This was what she dreaded would be discovered. I always thought the most likely reason the phones were said to be abducted with the baby is because there was evidence related to the disappearance on the phones. One or both parents needed to distance themselves from the phone(s) in advance of reporting Lisa missing. MOO.

Imo, Lisa is the victim, as are her brothers. Until LE officially clears others who could be involved in victimizing Lisa, I will remain respectful and follow TOS. I don't know who is repsonsible for Lisa going missing. I will not feel victim-unfriendly for analyzing and looking at all possibilities, wherever they may point. I appreciate everyone's opionions and theories. :twocents:

 

[JeannaT]

Yep, all baby monitors (that I've seen, at least) have a way to adjust the volume. I think it's entirely possible the volume was turned down, or the monitor was on the wrong channel.

Also, if the intruder noticed the baby monitor, it would be easy for him/her to silence it, turn the volume down, flip the channel on it, or turn it off..thus, the monitor in the moms room would have picked up nothing.

Imagine in your mind what it would sound like, lifting a baby out of the crib. It would sound like Lisa rolling over in her sleep.

 

[curiousc]

AND....what's with all that "junk" in the baby's bed.

The rumors about the parents taking money for interviews, are apparently true -- because Nightline (ABC News) had video inside the home. They showed the bedroom, and all the stuff in that baby's crib. It makes absolutely NO sense for all that stuff to be in that bed.

I am bothered by the plastic "storage box" lids. Those lids are the tops of containers that would fit a small child.

I don't think that baby was in that bed, the night she disappeared.

I have no idea why that stuff is in the crib. Unless they did it after the fact.

But what I do feel is that something is not right here. Not at all. Why does DB say that LE told her "there are holes in your story?" What holes? If you are a mom and are at home with the kids, how can there be holes?

What I do wonder is if this mom was felt overwhelmed that night and something happened? Or if she has PND? However, I really don't want to think she's done something to this sweet little baby girl.