GUILTY MO - Nicholas, 35, & Justin Diemel, 24, brothers missing, Clinton County, 21 July 2019 *ARREST* #2
- Thread starter adjones826
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(Agri-) Animal Incinerators. Did Nelson Own?
@Beaumont
Thanks for posting to give us info about these cremators. @Whassup
Quite a range of sizes.*
Did Nelson own one? If not, did he have access to use one, for ex. from neighboring farm?
If Nelson borrowed cremator on a flatbed trailer, took it, returned it, what did he tell the owner?
Same Q, if he asked other farmer for use of equipment on other farmer's prop.
If borrowed, is it possible that word - of either of the above - has not leaked thru soc media?
just
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* From the quick reading at a few sites, I could not tell if any are portable. Can some models be fixed to a flatbed and taken to the field to a felled cow? Or is animal taken to the cremator? More at links.
https://www.farmerboyag.com/cow-cremator-2
Looking for a livestock incinerator? Farmer Boy has you covered. We offer a full line of animal incinerators for sale. Whether you have small animals like chickens or a large animal like a cow; we have the size to fit your needs.
• Sizes ranging from 200# to 2000# capacity
• Fuel choices available on most models LP, NG, Fuel Oil, or Methane gas
• Manual timers to set burn time
https://firelakeincinerators.com/products/incineration-system-model-a200/
Product Specification
200 lbs. (91 kg) Chamber Capacity
6.3 cubic foot (.18 cubic meters) Chamber Volume
@Beaumont
Thanks for posting to give us info about these cremators. @Whassup Quite a range of sizes.*
Did Nelson own one? If not, did he have access to use one, for ex. from neighboring farm?
If Nelson borrowed cremator on a flatbed trailer, took it, returned it, what did he tell the owner?
Same Q, if he asked other farmer for use of equipment on other farmer's prop.
If borrowed, is it possible that word - of either of the above - has not leaked thru soc media?
just
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* From the quick reading at a few sites, I could not tell if any are portable. Can some models be fixed to a flatbed and taken to the field to a felled cow? Or is animal taken to the cremator? More at links.
https://www.farmerboyag.com/cow-cremator-2
Looking for a livestock incinerator? Farmer Boy has you covered. We offer a full line of animal incinerators for sale. Whether you have small animals like chickens or a large animal like a cow; we have the size to fit your needs.
• Sizes ranging from 200# to 2000# capacity
• Fuel choices available on most models LP, NG, Fuel Oil, or Methane gas
• Manual timers to set burn time
https://firelakeincinerators.com/products/incineration-system-model-a200/
Product Specification
200 lbs. (91 kg) Chamber Capacity
6.3 cubic foot (.18 cubic meters) Chamber Volume
@al66pine Thanks for going to the trouble of a looking up the info on the cow cremators. It is informative.
I may have started us down a rabbit trail with my post on cremation.
From your research:
Fuel choices available on most models LP, NG, Fuel Oil, or Methane gas
PC Affidavit says that JN poured diesel and an unidentified liquid over the bodies and ignited it in order to burn them. If (and that is an assumption) the Affidavit is accurate, that would rule out a cremator.
From the description I posted on how to cremate a body and your research on the livestock cremators, it appears that one key to cremation is jets of flame rather than a liquid fuel poured over a body and burnt. [Fuel oil is the only fuel listed that is not gaseous and my understanding is that it is burnt through jets like in a fuel oil heated house for more efficient heating.]
Unless LE releases the use or at least the availability of a cremator, I will stick with the accepted story that the bodies were burnt by liquid accelerants pour over the bodies. Better explains how the personal remains with the body in the tub were not fully consumed. MHO.
I may have started us down a rabbit trail with my post on cremation.
From your research:
Fuel choices available on most models LP, NG, Fuel Oil, or Methane gas
PC Affidavit says that JN poured diesel and an unidentified liquid over the bodies and ignited it in order to burn them. If (and that is an assumption) the Affidavit is accurate, that would rule out a cremator.
From the description I posted on how to cremate a body and your research on the livestock cremators, it appears that one key to cremation is jets of flame rather than a liquid fuel poured over a body and burnt. [Fuel oil is the only fuel listed that is not gaseous and my understanding is that it is burnt through jets like in a fuel oil heated house for more efficient heating.]
Unless LE releases the use or at least the availability of a cremator, I will stick with the accepted story that the bodies were burnt by liquid accelerants pour over the bodies. Better explains how the personal remains with the body in the tub were not fully consumed. MHO.
I really would appreciate , and I'm sure others, if the word cremation would quit being used in any correlation with the Diemel men.
Even if Nelson used a cow cremator, which in all reality is an incinerator , I doubt very much so that in a trial it would be said that the body(ies) were cremated.
Cremation, is a very personal choice that a family or loved one uses to put their loved one at rest.
Let's have a little respect for the victims and their family.
The whole thing is horrible enough that nothing needs to be added about how large livestock is incinerated and correlating it with how a murdered person may be laid to final rest by family and or loved ones.
Even if Nelson used a cow cremator, which in all reality is an incinerator , I doubt very much so that in a trial it would be said that the body(ies) were cremated.
Cremation, is a very personal choice that a family or loved one uses to put their loved one at rest.
Let's have a little respect for the victims and their family.
The whole thing is horrible enough that nothing needs to be added about how large livestock is incinerated and correlating it with how a murdered person may be laid to final rest by family and or loved ones.
Phrasing
@simlyme
My apologies for using any terms that are offensive to you. I don't think anyone intended any disrespect. Seems on Websleuths, there's bound to be discussion about injuries, death, and cause of death.
Regardless of how their deaths occurred, the Diemel brothers did not deserve to be killed. Period.
Sorry to be insensitive.
@simlyme
My apologies for using any terms that are offensive to you. I don't think anyone intended any disrespect. Seems on Websleuths, there's bound to be discussion about injuries, death, and cause of death.
Regardless of how their deaths occurred, the Diemel brothers did not deserve to be killed. Period.
Sorry to be insensitive.
@al66pine
it wasn't directed at anyone specific, that's why I didn't quote anyone.
Just trying to say that cremation is a very personal choice in putting someone's body to rest.Just as getting an animal(pet) cremated for the person to bring the ashes home or a burial. The person doing that doesn't use the word incinerated.
To me , it's plain and simple that Nelson burned the bodies with malicious purpose. And even if he had used a crematory, say that he owned, it still would be burning of the bodies in a malicious way(not cremation) and not done in the way a person chooses to put their loved one at rest.And last but not least , Nelson would most likely own large animal incinerator verses a large animal crematory, if he owned anything at all.
I'll give an example. Where I used to live, a person went missing. That persons ashes, small bone fragments and something personal,(I think a ring) were found at a hog house in an incinerator. The end result in the news and at trial was that the person was burned up in an incinerator, not, that the person was cremated.
I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound like I'm nitpicking. Just that I want the victims treated with dignity as all victims here on WS are treated for the last 10 years I've been here.
it wasn't directed at anyone specific, that's why I didn't quote anyone.
Just trying to say that cremation is a very personal choice in putting someone's body to rest.Just as getting an animal(pet) cremated for the person to bring the ashes home or a burial. The person doing that doesn't use the word incinerated.
To me , it's plain and simple that Nelson burned the bodies with malicious purpose. And even if he had used a crematory, say that he owned, it still would be burning of the bodies in a malicious way(not cremation) and not done in the way a person chooses to put their loved one at rest.And last but not least , Nelson would most likely own large animal incinerator verses a large animal crematory, if he owned anything at all.
I'll give an example. Where I used to live, a person went missing. That persons ashes, small bone fragments and something personal,(I think a ring) were found at a hog house in an incinerator. The end result in the news and at trial was that the person was burned up in an incinerator, not, that the person was cremated.
I hope that makes sense and doesn't sound like I'm nitpicking. Just that I want the victims treated with dignity as all victims here on WS are treated for the last 10 years I've been here.
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That is exactly what I thought alsoFrom whassup:
" Nov 22, 2019 NORTH PLATTE, Neb. (KNOP) - The sheriff's office of Caldwell County, Missouri, can now confirm it recovered the remains of both Diemel brothers, who disappeared while visiting a farm in Missouri earlier this year.
Nicholas Diemel's remains were recovered from a farm in Caldwell County, Missouri.
The remains of Justin Diemel were found in a livestock trailer sold to a rancher in Lincoln County, Nebraska.
The confirmations were made through dental records.
This is a developing story. This report will be updated.
Here is the link. Missouri sheriff confirms it's recovered remains of both Diemel brothers
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@Whassup
I'm confused. I thought Caldwell Co, MO sheriff waaay back /early Aug. recovered material ---
---sufficient for a DNA ID, as belonging to both Nicholas AND Justin and
---enough for Prob Cause that they were dead. (but no dental records).
Now linked MSM article says -
--- Nicholas' remains were found in Caldwell (ok, maybe more than earlier announced).
--- Per link, "... dental records confirmed that the body found earlier this week in a trailer in Lincoln County, Nebraska belonged to Justin..."
I thought 'tub' (of whatever kind) held only a skull & a few bones. Now it's "body"?
Regardless I'm glad that (more) remains have been recovered, and LE & prosecution continues.
Informative video. VIDEO: Case against Nelson hangs on DNA
A new train of thought.
According to Missouri Case Net, Nelson is still being defended by a public defender. Don't know exactly what that means but some thoughts on possibilities.
According to Missouri Case Net, Nelson is still being defended by a public defender. Don't know exactly what that means but some thoughts on possibilities.
- That TSF doesn't have the money to pay for a lawyer.
Might explain why she is selling farm equipment to pay bills. I understand how controversial her sale of equipment is. I also wonder why there has not been some sort of an injunction to stop it. OTH, if she is not a suspect, then I guess she is free to continue her business unhindered. Until there are some charges brought concerning the murders, coverup or dead cattle, I suppose anything she owns is hers to do with at she pleases or needs, regardless of the optics publicly. - That TSF doesn't have enough faith that her son is not guilty of at least part of the charges to be willing waste money on a lawyer.
- That the rest of Nelson's family does not have enough faith in Nelson to waste money on a lawyer.
- I guess in fairness it could be supposed that TSF had full knowledge of what happened and is willing to let Nelson take the fall.
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I don’t think they have money to hire an attorney for him.
Interesting video. The first to talk to an expert in DNA. Very helpful. Also a pretty accurate report even quoting verbatim the PC Affidavit. But then one glaring error. The reporter then immediately says that, according to the affidavit [3:01 point in the video], after burning the bodies Nelson crushed them and spread them around the property. The affidavit clearly states that he buried one or both of the bodies in the manure pile and crushed the barrels and disposed them (the barrels) by placing them on the property.
Just provides a reminder that the MSM makes errors in reporting all the time. That is why it is important to cross reference MSM with LE reports and court records.
It also does not appear that the case "hangs on DNA" as LE has the case currently hanging on dental evidence.
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Another thought.
The PC Affidavit quotes Nelson as admitting to burying one or both bodies in the manure pile, and the DNA comparisons led LE to believe that the remains found in said pile were the remains of N & J Diemel.
Immediately after finding the remains of skull and jawbone in the tub in Nebraska, LE changed their story to confirm that the remains in the manure pile belonged to N Diemel and in the tub to J Diemel.
As more of the details that the affidavit alleges Nelson admitted to are proven correct, the more the noose seems to tighten.
Right now it appears that the only hole in the case against Nelson is whether he acted alone or in concert with others in causing the murders.
There is still a lot of uncertainty about who else may have been involved and details about the motive. At this point, evidence is unclear and LE has not spoken to either other than quoting Jack Diemel's claim that the brothers went to pick up a check for cattle.
Suppositions aside, it would behoove us all to take care in either defending or accusing anyone else in this case until more evidence is released.
The PC Affidavit quotes Nelson as admitting to burying one or both bodies in the manure pile, and the DNA comparisons led LE to believe that the remains found in said pile were the remains of N & J Diemel.
Immediately after finding the remains of skull and jawbone in the tub in Nebraska, LE changed their story to confirm that the remains in the manure pile belonged to N Diemel and in the tub to J Diemel.
As more of the details that the affidavit alleges Nelson admitted to are proven correct, the more the noose seems to tighten.
Right now it appears that the only hole in the case against Nelson is whether he acted alone or in concert with others in causing the murders.
There is still a lot of uncertainty about who else may have been involved and details about the motive. At this point, evidence is unclear and LE has not spoken to either other than quoting Jack Diemel's claim that the brothers went to pick up a check for cattle.
Suppositions aside, it would behoove us all to take care in either defending or accusing anyone else in this case until more evidence is released.
@Whassup You post above,I'll put in quotes ,"Might explain why she is selling farm equipment to pay bills. I understand how controversial her sale of equipment is. I also wonder why there has not been some sort of an injunction to stop it. OTH, if she is not a suspect, then I guess she is free to continue her business unhindered. Until there are some charges brought concerning the murders, coverup or dead cattle, I suppose anything she owns is hers to do with at she pleases or needs, regardless of the optics publicly."
Nelsons address is listed has the same as hers, the crime happened at that property, that property should have been completely secured until that case came to an end. And all equipment should have been taken in by LE until this case came to an end.
I don't care who owns that property, a horrible crime happened there and already , look at what happened with the trailer that had the remains in it.
The only thing that could have been sold were the livestock,or she could have taken them elsewhere.
Most times when you have that type of crime ,others suffer the consequences also. Especially family of the arrested. Nothing would have been unusual if that farm was secured.
In many articles it states that LE fed her cows, why not feed them somewhere else.
If I were the Diemels at this point , I would be past angry about this investigation, especially if that trailer came from Nelsons address.And if it didn't we can almost be sure that the remains found in the bucket did!! Who covered that up for so long.
I understand your anger. We all just need to keep some things in mind.
- The property can only be kept secured as long as it is deemed an active crime scene. Once a search warrant is served, LE has to keep a constant presence on the scene or a new warrant has to be gotten. Think what would happen to say Wal Mart the next time a shooting occurs in a store, if that store could not continue to do business of buying and selling until the case was settled. Not an apples to apples comparison I know but as soon as the active investigation is complete, anything not taken into evidence is private property. You might quibble with LE about what should have been taken as evidence, but whatever wasn't they have no control over.
- There has not been a charge made against TSF or F4S, the corporation for which Nelson worked. Legally, property belonging to either cannot be held unless a case is brought against either or that property is ruled to be evidence.
- LE did feed her cows as long as the farm was an active crime scene. Once that ended, they went back to doing police work. You could ask the Sheriff's office directly why they did not move the cattle and feed them elsewhere, but I suspect that they would answer that, they do not have the authority, manpower, expertise or property to do so.
- "If that trailer came from Nelson's address..." I do not dispute that that is possible or likely, but I have not seen that reported yet. If it did come from Nelson's address, or belonged to Nelson or F4S, and LE knew about it but did not search it, then LE has egg on their face. Even if it did belong to Nelson or F4S, once it was out of the chain of custody, only the person(s) placing it on the trailer knows when or at what location. These are ifs that will have to wait for evidence to deal with.
- "Most times when you have that type of crime ,others suffer the consequences also. Especially family of the arrested." Not sure, given the tone, whether you think that the family of the arrested suffering also is proper, or a sad side effect for the family. If the latter, I agree and hate it if any of Nelson's family suffer innocently because of his actions. If the former...
- From what I have read elsewhere, it seems that the Diemels and many others are "past angry about this investigation." That could be flat out dangerous if anyone is stirred to take the law into their own hands.
We do not know what LE does or does not know. We do not know what avenues of investigation they are following. We do not know who else they may suspect and have under investigation but not ready to charge yet. We do not know what other crimes have been or are yet to be discovered. LE has repeatedly stated that this is a complicated case. I expect a complicated resolution, with many twists yet to come. We all need to be patient and keep cool heads lest this lead to a multiplication of crimes
@Whassup
I posted "The only thing that could have been sold were the livestock,or she could have taken them elsewhere.
Most times when you have that type of crime ,others suffer the consequences also. Especially family of the arrested. Nothing would have been unusual if that farm was secured."
I always think someone will read between the lines. I try to leave out what I think is easy for someone to understand just by what I type.
Anyway with the above I posted, what I meant exactly is if anyone and everyone besides LE were not allowed on the property until this case was done. Such as his mother should have been made to find somewhere else to live ,until all was said and done.That is a consequence of a terrible crime happening on your property.
This crime happened on private property where the accused lived and to me should have been secured.
That's the way I feel and what I believe should have happened, and nothing should have been sold that came from that property that Nelson had access to.
Just say, what if the loader he used was in his mothers name,just like I'm sure every other piece of equipment on that property is, was that left there for her to sell.
What if he talks and says" oh yea, I also used this or that. Well now it could be gone and evidence is gone.
That's all.
I posted "The only thing that could have been sold were the livestock,or she could have taken them elsewhere.
Most times when you have that type of crime ,others suffer the consequences also. Especially family of the arrested. Nothing would have been unusual if that farm was secured."
I always think someone will read between the lines. I try to leave out what I think is easy for someone to understand just by what I type.
Anyway with the above I posted, what I meant exactly is if anyone and everyone besides LE were not allowed on the property until this case was done. Such as his mother should have been made to find somewhere else to live ,until all was said and done.That is a consequence of a terrible crime happening on your property.
This crime happened on private property where the accused lived and to me should have been secured.
That's the way I feel and what I believe should have happened, and nothing should have been sold that came from that property that Nelson had access to.
Just say, what if the loader he used was in his mothers name,just like I'm sure every other piece of equipment on that property is, was that left there for her to sell.
What if he talks and says" oh yea, I also used this or that. Well now it could be gone and evidence is gone.
That's all.
Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you meant something like that but wasn't sure. There are so many ugly things and veiled threats on other sites that I am concerned that someone is going to take matters into their own hands. That is why I want to tamp down anything that might provoke someone.
It is private property, true. And it is also a home, business and a working farm. LE does not have the authority to remove anyone or cause a business to cease to function until a case is complete--only as long as it is an active crime scene. If TSF is arrested or a new search warrant is issued, then that changes. That is part of being innocent until proven guilty.
It is my understanding that some of the farm equipment was seized as evidence. What was not seized is private property.
What you are talking about are 4th Amendment issues--Protection from Unreasonable Search and Seizures. What is and is not considered reasonable is not up to public opinion or the will of LE. It has been determined by precedent over 2oo+ years.
When we are sure someone is guilty that is frustrating. When we are wrongfully accused it is our only hope.
I understand your frustration. There may yet be charges against TSF that change the landscape of this case. But until those are filed LE has to follow guidelines based on the law. In this case, it all goes back to the US Constitution.
Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you meant something like that but wasn't sure. There are so many ugly things and veiled threats on other sites that I am concerned that someone is going to take matters into their own hands. That is why I want to tamp down anything that might provoke someone.
It is private property, true. And it is also a home, business and a working farm. LE does not have the authority to remove anyone or cause a business to cease to function until a case is complete--only as long as it is an active crime scene. If TSF is arrested or a new search warrant is issued, then that changes. That is part of being innocent until proven guilty.
It is my understanding that some of the farm equipment was seized as evidence. What was not seized is private property.
What you are talking about are 4th Amendment issues--Protection from Unreasonable Search and Seizures. What is and is not considered reasonable is not up to public opinion or the will of LE. It has been determined by precedent over 2oo+ years.
When we are sure someone is guilty that is frustrating. When we are wrongfully accused it is our only hope.
I understand your frustration. There may yet be charges against TSF that change the landscape of this case. But until those are filed LE has to follow guidelines based on the law. In this case, it all goes back to the US Constitution.
A Little Further Research
What you are talking about is freezing assets. Here a link to a long Wikipedia article with a short quote.
Link: Asset freezing - Wikipedia
Asset freezing is a legal process which prevents a defendant whether innocent or guilty (usually an apparent fraudster)[1] to an action from dissipating their assets from beyond the jurisdiction of a court so as to frustrate a potential judgment. It is widely recognised in other common law jurisdictions[2] and such orders can be made to have world-wide effect. It is variously construed as part of a court's inherent jurisdiction to restrain breaches of its process.
It appears that TSF and/or J4S Farms would have to be a defendant in either the murder or some legal charge against the corporation for these assets to be frozen. Joint occupancy of a residence is not the same as ownership. If the property is in the name of TSF or J4S, a charge against Nelson alone is not enough to freeze any assets but those in the name of Nelson.
J4S looks fishy. That TSF is responsible for the business dealings of Nelson on behalf of J4S, including the death of cattle under their care seems obvious. The sale of assets smells bad. It would not surprise me if, at some point, the legitimacy of J4S is challenged legally. It would also not surprise me if TSF and J4S is charged with animal cruelty at some point. She may also become a defendant in the murders and/or the coverup.
But it appears, legally, that until she becomes the defendant in something, her assets cannot be frozen. The same would be true of J4S.
If I were the Diemels, I would be challenging these sales in court. But unless a judge issues an injunction, there is nothing anyone can do.
ShannonHall
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3Dg1rYwBbe_bNyGkpfxlAI&cshid=1574934640196
This was a good article on the time line of events
This was a good article on the time line of events
So finally, she is being held accountable. Which should have been from the beginning!! That whole farm should have been shut down!!! From day 1. SO SAD!! Nelson did NOT run that farm by himself, at least he really didn't have anything to do with the money that went in and out. HIS MOTHER DID!!
MAY JUSTICE PREVAIL FOR THE DIEMELS!!
Wrongful death lawsuit filed in connection with deaths of Wisconsin brothers
MAY JUSTICE PREVAIL FOR THE DIEMELS!!
Wrongful death lawsuit filed in connection with deaths of Wisconsin brothers
Wrongful death lawsuit filed against man accused of murdering Wisconsin brothers
And there we go, she allowed him to sell cattle EVEN though he was on probation and WASN'T suppose to take on NEW DEBT!! YES! I'm angry, she should be sitting right next to him,forever!!!
The lawsuit claims that shortly after Nelson was released from prison on previous charges of illegally selling cattle, Feil created J4s Farm Enterprises Inc. and allowed Nelson to continue selling cattle — even though he was on probation and wasn’t supposed to take on new debt.
Court documents allege that Feil and the company were negligent and that they “should have known that allowing Nelson to return to the cattle business created an unreasonable risk of harm to others, including decedents.”
Nick and Justin Diemel (Courtesy of Lisa Diemel)
The suit also says “Nelson intended to kill decedents if they came to Missouri to collect the payment for the cattle” and that Feil and the company concealed Nelson’s prior conviction of cattle fraud.
And there we go, she allowed him to sell cattle EVEN though he was on probation and WASN'T suppose to take on NEW DEBT!! YES! I'm angry, she should be sitting right next to him,forever!!!
The lawsuit claims that shortly after Nelson was released from prison on previous charges of illegally selling cattle, Feil created J4s Farm Enterprises Inc. and allowed Nelson to continue selling cattle — even though he was on probation and wasn’t supposed to take on new debt.
Court documents allege that Feil and the company were negligent and that they “should have known that allowing Nelson to return to the cattle business created an unreasonable risk of harm to others, including decedents.”
Nick and Justin Diemel (Courtesy of Lisa Diemel)
The suit also says “Nelson intended to kill decedents if they came to Missouri to collect the payment for the cattle” and that Feil and the company concealed Nelson’s prior conviction of cattle fraud.
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