MO - Six Mohler family members for child sex crimes, Bates City 2009 #1

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  • #441
Well see I am not sure that I buy the argument that paedophillia and homosexuality (not comparing the two BTW) are actual sexual orientations, I do believe this is learned behavior but I also understand that there is growing scientific evidence showing the contrary, I am just not sure I agree with it yet.


I realize it is a very unpopular position to take but I do think that paedophillia and homosexality and other similar orientations are learned behaviors and largely due to psychological and emotional problems in the developmental stages of youth.


I am not a psychologist so I certainly cant speak with any authority on these matters, I hire experts for that purpose.

I have to take umbrage at the suggestion that pedophilia and homosexuality are similar orientations. With all due respect, sex between an adult and a child is always wrong and shares no similarity whatsoever to sex between two consenting adults regardless of their genitalia.

The psychiatric term is paraphilia - that's the umbrella that orientations like pedophilia, bestiality, etc... - fall under. Homosexuality doesn't. It was removed from the DSM-IV a few decades ago.

My jury is out regarding whether pedophilia is learned or innate. I think it can be both. Regardless, I think most of us can agree that, for the most part, it is not a curable orientation.
 
  • #442
Respectfully snipped and bolded ~
You are aware that statistics show that about 98% of all paedophiles are such because they were abused as children? These "sick and twisted child molesting freaks" as they are commonly referred to were children who were harmed once themselves.

Are we talking strictly pedos or child sex abusers in general? Because I am quite certain that on another thread here on WS we have stats that disprove this. It will take me a minute to find the thread and when I do I will edit this post and add it here.

Second.... this is a damn poor excuse for hurting others. No... I don't have all the answers but I know that many, many people that were abused as children have NOT gone on to abuse others. Why? I can't give you any scientific answers but my personal opinion is because they understand what it is like to be hurt.

Third.... I firmly believe that people who are thinking about committing crimes against children KNOW it is wrong. They know if they are thinking about it, it is wrong. They could get help. Many states have County run mental health departments. There are also hot lines all across the country. Hot lines that will help you, no matter the problem - from suicidal thoughts to thoughts of child molestation.

Maybe we need a public education program that airs 30-60 second spots on TV letting these perps know that the time to get help is BEFORE they act, because once they act - they will be considered scum.

If an abuser was abused as a child, the correct and proper response is to get treatment to deal with the demons that were left behind after the abuse stopped, not to continue to perpetrate the crime upon unsuspecting innocents.

Just my opinion,

Salem

With sincere thanks to Reann - she has given several sources for stats on this subject in this post: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4424284&postcount=406"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 5 Family Members Arrested In Connection w/Child Sex Crimes[/ame]
 
  • #443
I have to take umbrage at the suggestion that pedophilia and homosexuality are similar orientations. With all due respect, sex between an adult and a child is always wrong and shares no similarity whatsoever to sex between two consenting adults regardless of their genitalia.

The psychiatric term is paraphilia - that's the umbrella that orientations like pedophilia, bestiality, etc... - fall under. Homosexuality doesn't. It was removed from the DSM-IV a few decades ago.

My jury is out regarding whether pedophilia is learned or innate. I think it can be both. Regardless, I think most of us can agree that, for the most part, it is not a curable orientation.

Yea I wanted to clarify that I wasnt trying to compare the two, I am not a homophobe or anything no worry there, but I do think they are both learned behaviors obviously one is perfectly acceptable and the other not.

I also realize that a lot of people will disagree with me here and that is ok, makes for interesting discussion!:crazy:

I agree that one cannot be cured of paedophillia but I would suggest that one can learn to control their urges. I love females more than anything but I dont go around screwing everyone of them I see or meet, even though I may often have the urge to make love to a beautiful woman walking past me, I certainly would never act on that urge even if she were to consent since it isnt really a healthy way to live ones life anymore.
 
  • #444
Well see I am not sure that I buy the argument that paedophillia and homosexuality (not comparing the two BTW) are actual sexual orientations, I do believe this is learned behavior but I also understand that there is growing scientific evidence showing the contrary, I am just not sure I agree with it yet.


I realize it is a very unpopular position to take but I do think that paedophillia and homosexality and other similar orientations are learned behaviors and largely due to psychological and emotional problems in the developmental stages of youth.


I am not a psychologist so I certainly cant speak with any authority on these matters, I hire experts for that purpose.


I couldn't disagree more.
 
  • #445
Boy, am I stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've hesitated to tell this part of our story but it might be interesting if everyone pondered the many facets of this. I'm pretty certain that this scenario plays out everyday.

You all know that our eight youngest were abused. The rapist was convicted and served 10 years. He was released in June on his 25th birthday. The adult who coached him in his rapes has never served time, even though he was arrested and on house arrest for several months. There was hope that the youth would testify against him but that never happened. We walked away with a broken group of already very challenged children. We welcomed and perused every bit of therapy available to us. Interestingly enough, most of the kids didn't qualify for therapy as their IQs were too low. It's thought that people with cognitive disabilities cannot really benefit from talk therapy. Isn't it ironic that they are so often victims? My husband and I were instead trained in how to supervise and process every single scrap of behavior for the remainder of the children's childhoods. It was a daunting task.

Each child has processed their rapes differently. One daughter has serious physical disabilities, is deaf, and has an IQ of 50. She was an amazing witness, by the way. She's so totally concrete and guileless, she blew everybody away. She is the light of my life and will live with us forever.

Our other daughter became very provocative after the rape. She was overly interested in sex and boys. She pushed the envelope day after day. She's the one who is currently being trafficked. I know she went willingly but she does have an IQ of only 63 and I feel it's a crime that she's being re-victimized daily. My heart breaks for her pain.

The other six are boys. One tried suicide over and over until he landed in the State Hospital for a year. We just about threw in the towel. When he was released, he became addicted to meth and began a downward spiral. He's also chronically ill and we braced ourselves for an early death. No one was more shocked than me, his Momma, when he got clean, got a job, and stepped up to life. I am unbelievably proud of this young man. He was the oldest of the eight and he was the one who "told". He paid a high price for the truth but he stopped the abuse.

Another son is a hard worker and kind as can be. He has an IQ in the 70s and has a very hard time in the real world. He's also drinking and using drugs. His biggest challenge is a horrible addiction to 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬. If you ask him where he got this interest, he will tell you that his rapist showed him lots of graphic 🤬🤬🤬🤬 (including bestiality) as the rapist "helped" him walk to school and he could never forget it. The jury's out on him.

Next we have a tender and gentle young man who has a huge amount of shame surrounding the abuse. He also is developmentally disabled but was Student Body President of his high school. He's always had lovely girlfriends and has been accepted socially. It breaks our heart that his DD stands in the way of employment as he is exceptionally kind but has limited life skills. For some reason, very intelligent young women always step in to help him.

Next we have our sweetheart of a son who was raped repeatedly in the school bathroom. He, too, suffered horrible shame and was the last to disclose. He went on to become a gifted athlete and very popular at school. He is vision impaired and very learning disabled but an absolute charmer. He's the one who asked me if he was still a virgin. Given that he's fallen hard for an exchange student at his college, I have my suspicions that he's finally given that precious gift to the girl of his dreams. He's also the son who has PTSD. It's like a monkey on his back. He struggles with it each and every day but has been helped with therapy.

Our youngest son doesn't remember much of the abuse, thank goodness. It happened around the time he was six. He did testify, though, and nailed the rapist with his simple statements. This young man went on to be extremely assaultive. He assaulted me several times. He's recently reconnected with his birth-mother and wasted no time in assaulting her too. He's doing jail time for that. She and I have developed a connection through email and have made a pact to love our son from a distance due to his anger problems.

Last, we have a son who is the twin of our most special needs daughter. He is also very developmentally disabled. They were born at 25 weeks gestation and exposed to heroin, PCP, and alcohol. He witnessed a murder in an inner city foster home at age 3. He was subjected to some of the most humiliating abuse by the rapist. Within weeks of the disclosures, he started acting out against his siblings and hurting himself. He was a very troubled boy with low IQ and multiple mental diagnoses. He required lots of heavy duty meds and supervision.

Now, we get to the real reason I've shared all this info. This boy offended. Yes, I am the mother of a sex offender. I will never minimize what my son did but I fully understand it. It certainly didn't surprise me. He accepted an invitation to a classmate's house. They were both high school juniors in the same special ed class and have a similar level of disability. She had written him very sexually provocative notes and he was smitten. He was 18 and she was 16. They went to her bedroom and she took off her clothes. He had never been with a girl and he pushed himself on her. She giggled and kissed him but then told him to stop. She had to tell him three separate times to stop but he did. He put on his clothes and left. These facts are straight from his and her police reports. He was arrested the next day and gave a statement to the police readily, with no attorney present. He admitted that his finger had penetrated her. He pleaded guilty to a Class A Felony Rape. He was given ten years. The following month, the victim became pregnant with a 15 year old boy. She writes to our son in prison and still refers to him as a boyfriend. They are both obviously very confused and special needs young people.

I tell you all this because I do see both sides of the story but my hands are tied. I cannot call for longer prison sentences and zero tolerance of statutory rape while begging for mercy for my son who was also a victim. This is where it gets so mirky. I'd like to see my son take classes in prison, but he has tremendous learning disabilities. I'd like to have him call me, but a phone is too difficult for him to use. I'd like him to have mental health treatment. I'd like his conviction looked at by an advocacy group but how two-faced can I be? I'm sure that I would once have said that "once you become a perp, you're no longer a victim" but it's not that clear-cut.

Childhood sexual abuse is a lot like a virus. No one asks for the virus but it can be given against their will. Some victims become infected, get sick, and recover. Some stay sick and carry the virus looking for other victims. I don't know if there's an effective anti-viral which will work with everyone. I just don't know.

I don't think what your son did was a similar type crime as what I was specifically talking about.

A little off topic, but for your children suffering from PTSD have you ever tried EMDR? It worked miracles for our family.
 
  • #446
I believe children are sexually imprinted, meaning, our first sexual arousal and/or experience will have a lot/all? to do with how you function sexually for the rest of your life. UNLESS, and this is a biggie, there is intervention at an early age.

My daughter works in a facility for juvenile sex offenders and according to her they have a great cure(?) rate because they were treated early enough before deviant behavior became firmly entrenched. After a certain age, teen years I believe, it is almost too late to change them.

My opinion only

I think there is imprinting for some, some arrive wired for the proclivities they later experience and/or desire.

Sexuality, as a rule, is a spectrum. Since discovering myself as a sexual being, I've had experiences that were all over the board and all over the spectrum. Today, I'm about 93% heterosexual, but I don't really know why. That's just where I landed.
 
  • #447
I din't quote right. It's been reported that an adult told the kids to write their memories down and bury them. I was saying that may have been misinterpreted somewhere, because I was a victim, and I did that. I thought of it on my own and never thought it had ever been done before or since. It was this sick detail that made me believe the whole story.
I'm sorry I was unclear. This one's tripping me all over the place. I should just stay out of it.


(((((Torsade))))) I am sorry you had to endure such pain and I pray you are having a strong and healthy recovery.

This is a horrendeous case.

Salem
 
  • #448
I couldn't disagree more.

So if you think paedophiles are born that way why would you call them freaks and show no sympathy for them since they have no control over what they are born to be and could be likened to someone with downs symdrome for example, it is a physical defect that they have no control over.

At least in my argument they have control and choose to remain what they are, because I suggest it is a learned behavor stemming from something going wrong in their childhood.

For the record I study Scientology so you may understand why I feel as I do if you understand what Scientology's teachings are regarding learned behaviors before and after birth and during developmental stages.
 
  • #449
Yea I wanted to clarify that I wasnt trying to compare the two, I am not a homophobe or anything no worry there, but I do think they are both learned behaviors obviously one is perfectly acceptable and the other not.

I also realize that a lot of people will disagree with me here and that is ok, makes for interesting discussion!:crazy:

I agree that one cannot be cured of paedophillia but I would suggest that one can learn to control their urges. I love females more than anything but I dont go around screwing everyone of them I see or meet, even though I may often have the urge to make love to a beautiful woman walking past me, I certainly would never act on that urge even if she were to consent since it isnt really a healthy way to live ones life anymore.

This is something I have given some real thought to.

What if every time I wanted to satisfy my sexual desire/proclivity, I had to hurt a sentient being? That's essentially what it is like to be a pedophile.

Now, I'd love to be a moral beacon and all and say with conviction, "If I knew that in order to satisfy my sexual desires, I had to hurt someone else, I just wouldn't satisfy my sexual desires!"

But frankly my own sexual history would reveal me as a liar. In the course of my life, I have hurt people in my desire to fulfill my sexual wishes/needs/etc...I'm probably not the only one.

More than likely, if - in order to satiate my sexual urges - another person had to be harmed, I would eventually develop a psychic mechanism that allowed me to feel okay about what I was doing. Whatever I would tell myself might sound insane to others, but I'm pretty sure I could sell it to myself. I'm deeply in touch with my own selfishness and my ability to compartmentalize.

Now, you speak of learning to control our sexual urges and I can relate to that too. I'm a 42-year-old female, married 13 years, two kids and happily monogamous. I've certainly learned to control my urges and to not act on the ones that might harm others. Or have I? Truth be told, I just don't really have any urges to step outside my comfortable box, so I'm not fighting to control anything.

But, if I were a 20 year old male who got turned on by toddlers, would I be able to control those urges? My history tells me that I would not.

So I feel empathy for pedophiles. Even as I would give my life to protect any child from being used sexually by an adult, I cannot loathe a pedophile.
 
  • #450
Hello SCM - I agree with you on this point. After reading everyone's insights here today on whether pedophilia is a learned or innate behavior, it's clear there is no simple answer.

In this particular case, we have a father and all of his own sons who stand accused of horrific child sexual abuse. If the accusations prove to be true, it can be argued that the sons most assuredly learned the behavior from their father - whether or not they, themselves, were ever victims of such abuse. I would think the odds of all five sons being born pedos are astronomical.

In any case, these men have reportedly been, for all intents and purposes, productive members of their communities. They have jobs, go to church, socialize with others, etc. Whatever they may have been taught by their father in their youth, they would have discovered in mainstream society that it was morally wrong - not to mention illegal.

Of course, they've not been tried and convicted yet of anything.

This is an excellent point, Fairy, and I agree with you.
 
  • #451
I have to take umbrage at the suggestion that pedophilia and homosexuality are similar orientations. With all due respect, sex between an adult and a child is always wrong and shares no similarity whatsoever to sex between two consenting adults regardless of their genitalia.

The psychiatric term is paraphilia - that's the umbrella that orientations like pedophilia, bestiality, etc... - fall under. Homosexuality doesn't. It was removed from the DSM-IV a few decades ago.

My jury is out regarding whether pedophilia is learned or innate. I think it can be both. Regardless, I think most of us can agree that, for the most part, it is not a curable orientation.


Hello SCM - I agree with you on this point. After reading everyone's insights here today on whether pedophilia is a learned or innate behavior, it's clear there is no simple answer.

In this particular case, we have a father and all of his own sons who stand accused of horrific child sexual abuse. If the accusations prove to be true, it can be argued that the sons most assuredly learned the behavior from their father - whether or not they, themselves, were ever victims of such abuse. I would think the odds of all five sons being born pedos are astronomical.

In any case, these men have reportedly been, for all intents and purposes, productive members of their communities. They have jobs, go to church, socialize with others, etc. Whatever they may have been taught by their father in their youth, they would have discovered in mainstream society that it was morally wrong - not to mention illegal.

Of course, they've not been tried and convicted yet of anything.


(Had to delete and repost - I'm having some "quote" challenges tonight!)
 
  • #452
This is something I have given some real thought to.

What if every time I wanted to satisfy my sexual desire/proclivity, I had to hurt a sentient being? That's essentially what it is like to be a pedophile.

Now, I'd love to be a moral beacon and all and say with conviction, "If I knew that in order to satisfy my sexual desires, I had to hurt someone else, I just wouldn't satisfy my sexual desires!"

But frankly my own sexual history would reveal me as a liar. In the course of my life, I have hurt people in my desire to fulfill my sexual wishes/needs/etc...I'm probably not the only one.

More than likely, if - in order to satiate my sexual urges - another person had to be harmed, I would eventually develop a psychic mechanism that allowed me to feel okay about what I was doing. Whatever I would tell myself might sound insane to others, but I'm pretty sure I could sell it to myself. I'm deeply in touch with my own selfishness and my ability to compartmentalize.

Now, you speak of learning to control our sexual urges and I can relate to that too. I'm a 42-year-old female, married 13 years, two kids and happily monogamous. I've certainly learned to control my urges and to not act on the ones that might harm others. Or have I? Truth be told, I just don't really have any urges to step outside my comfortable box, so I'm not fighting to control anything.

But, if I were a 20 year old male who got turned on by toddlers, would I be able to control those urges? My history tells me that I would not.

So I feel empathy for pedophiles. Even as I would give my life to protect any child from being used sexually by an adult, I cannot loathe a pedophile.



Very well said and a lot to think about there.

Do you think people are born podophilles (foot fetish) or is this learned behavior, in other words can someone actually be born wired so that they get sexually aroused by feet or is did something occur in their developmental stages to trigger this behavior? The same goes for being aroused by children, while I am sure there are some cases where their brains may simply be wired that way I would suggest that such an urge is something that would be triggered by an event in the early stages of development.

Again I may be wrong but as a student of Scientology (not a Scientologist but a student of it) I have recently been reconsidering the idea that people are born this way.
 
  • #453
Hello SCM - I agree with you on this point. After reading everyone's insights here today on whether pedophilia is a learned or innate behavior, it's clear there is no simple answer.

In this particular case, we have a father and all of his own sons who stand accused of horrific child sexual abuse. If the accusations prove to be true, it can be argued that the sons most assuredly learned the behavior from their father - whether or not they, themselves, were ever victims of such abuse. I would think the odds of all five sons being born pedos are astronomical.

In any case, these men have reportedly been, for all intents and purposes, productive members of their communities. They have jobs, go to church, socialize with others, etc. Whatever they may have been taught by their father in their youth, they would have discovered in mainstream society that it was morally wrong - not to mention illegal.

Of course, they've not been tried and convicted yet of anything.


(Had to delete and repost - I'm having some "quote" challenges tonight!)


A lot to think about there, thanks for a well thought out answer. It may be the case that all the brothers/sons are not paedophiles at all but just opportunists, the opportunity to have sex with the daughter presented and they acted on it but otherwise do not specifically or generally get aroused by children as a rule, hard to say though.
 
  • #454
This is something I have given some real thought to.

What if every time I wanted to satisfy my sexual desire/proclivity, I had to hurt a sentient being? That's essentially what it is like to be a pedophile.

Now, I'd love to be a moral beacon and all and say with conviction, "If I knew that in order to satisfy my sexual desires, I had to hurt someone else, I just wouldn't satisfy my sexual desires!"

But frankly my own sexual history would reveal me as a liar. In the course of my life, I have hurt people in my desire to fulfill my sexual wishes/needs/etc...I'm probably not the only one.

More than likely, if - in order to satiate my sexual urges - another person had to be harmed, I would eventually develop a psychic mechanism that allowed me to feel okay about what I was doing. Whatever I would tell myself might sound insane to others, but I'm pretty sure I could sell it to myself. I'm deeply in touch with my own selfishness and my ability to compartmentalize.

Now, you speak of learning to control our sexual urges and I can relate to that too. I'm a 42-year-old female, married 13 years, two kids and happily monogamous. I've certainly learned to control my urges and to not act on the ones that might harm others. Or have I? Truth be told, I just don't really have any urges to step outside my comfortable box, so I'm not fighting to control anything.

But, if I were a 20 year old male who got turned on by toddlers, would I be able to control those urges? My history tells me that I would not.

So I feel empathy for pedophiles. Even as I would give my life to protect any child from being used sexually by an adult, I cannot loathe a pedophile.

So if one of your children were abused by a pedophile, you would empathize with the pedophile? :waitasec:

I'm sorry, but I did not understand your post at all. :waitasec:
 
  • #455
This is something I have given some real thought to.

What if every time I wanted to satisfy my sexual desire/proclivity, I had to hurt a sentient being? That's essentially what it is like to be a pedophile.

Now, I'd love to be a moral beacon and all and say with conviction, "If I knew that in order to satisfy my sexual desires, I had to hurt someone else, I just wouldn't satisfy my sexual desires!"

But frankly my own sexual history would reveal me as a liar. In the course of my life, I have hurt people in my desire to fulfill my sexual wishes/needs/etc...I'm probably not the only one.

More than likely, if - in order to satiate my sexual urges - another person had to be harmed, I would eventually develop a psychic mechanism that allowed me to feel okay about what I was doing. Whatever I would tell myself might sound insane to others, but I'm pretty sure I could sell it to myself. I'm deeply in touch with my own selfishness and my ability to compartmentalize.

Now, you speak of learning to control our sexual urges and I can relate to that too. I'm a 42-year-old female, married 13 years, two kids and happily monogamous. I've certainly learned to control my urges and to not act on the ones that might harm others. Or have I? Truth be told, I just don't really have any urges to step outside my comfortable box, so I'm not fighting to control anything.

But, if I were a 20 year old male who got turned on by toddlers, would I be able to control those urges? My history tells me that I would not.

So I feel empathy for pedophiles. Even as I would give my life to protect any child from being used sexually by an adult, I cannot loathe a pedophile.

Very well (and quite honestly!) put, SCM.

I would prefer not to see pedophilia and homosexuality lumped into the same box here. I never really put much thought into the origins of a pedophile's inclinations. However, when I think of sexual abuse involving adults, I consider it to be a crime of violence, not sexual preference. It's an act of control and, very often, hatred. I have always seen sexual abuse against children in that same way. IMO, homosexuality is an inherant trait, not a learned behavior. Apples and oranges.
 
  • #456
IDK, if pedo's are born this way or learned to be that way. It doesn't matter to me. They are what they are. My point is you can't forcefully achange sexual attraction. And anyone that thinks pedos can be helped or fixed should step up to the plate and let them come live in their house, babysit their kids, and take complete responsibility if they "go off the wagon" and harm the neighbor kid. I bet there wouldn't be very many takers.

It's the same with about every crime if you think about it. Family and friends of perps fight to keep them out of prison or get them out early. Well that's all fine and dandy for them, but not their next victim who's goes to work everyday, minds his own business and pays his taxes. I bet judges and parole boards would think twice about giving perps a break if they had to provide them room and board in their own house.
 
  • #457
Very well (and quite honestly!) put, SCM.

I would prefer not to see pedophilia and homosexuality lumped into the same box here. I never really put much thought into the origins of a pedophile's inclinations. However, when I think of sexual abuse involving adults, I consider it to be a crime of violence, not sexual preference. It's an act of control and, very often, hatred. I have always seen sexual abuse against children in that same way. IMO, homosexuality is an inherant trait, not a learned behavior. Apples and oranges.

This is the 3rd time now that people have suggested I am lumping homosexuals with paedophiles and I am doing no such thing. They are two different things, consenual sex with an adult of the same sex is perfectly acceptable if that is your thing, but I was arguing that I am reconsidering the idea that people are born this way, that men are born with the urge to be aroused by other men and that it is rather something they learned after birth.
 
  • #458
IDK, if pedo's are born this way or learned to be that way. It doesn't matter to me. They are what they are. My point is you can't forcefully achange sexual attraction. And anyone that thinks pedos can be helped or fixed should step up to the plate and let them come live in their house, babysit their kids, and take complete responsibility if they "go off the wagon" and harm the neighbor kid. I bet there wouldn't be very many takers.

It's the same with about every crime if you think about it. Family and friends of perps fight to keep them out of prison or get them out early. Well that's all fine and dandy for them, but not their next victim who's goes to work everyday, minds his own business and pays his taxes. I bet judges and parole boards would think twice about giving perps a break if they had to provide them room and board in their own house.

Well it does sort of matter so that we can figure how to fix it.
 
  • #459
Well it does sort of matter so that we can figure how to fix it.

That can be done behind prison bars. I don't want to live next door to an experiment that fails.
 
  • #460
Very well said and a lot to think about there.

Do you think people are born podophilles (foot fetish) or is this learned behavior, in other words can someone actually be born wired so that they get sexually aroused by feet or is did something occur in their developmental stages to trigger this behavior? The same goes for being aroused by children, while I am sure there are some cases where their brains may simply be wired that way I would suggest that such an urge is something that would be triggered by an event in the early stages of development.

Again I may be wrong but as a student of Scientology (not a Scientologist but a student of it) I have recently been reconsidering the idea that people are born this way.

Yikes, I just typed the longest post to your terrific questions and lost it! I will try again after 30 Rock!
 
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