MO - Six Mohler family members for child sex crimes, Bates City 2009 #2

[PAXIMUS]

I don't mean to pester you, but can you please explain *why* books/magazines/movies, etc spotlighting incest would be inadmissible as evidence in a case where someone is facing rape charges against a grandchild, daughter or niece.

I understand how this legal material could not be admissible in say for instance a crime such as embezzling-- sounds irrelevant to me unless there was a very strong connection between embezzling & incestuous abuse.

However, this legal material does sound very relevant...and I certainly understand any defense attorney worth his salt would argue for said legal material to *not* be admitted as evidence.

On what grounds would it not be admitted??


TIA!!

Because they are inflammatory. A decent lawyer can get them tossed easily.

 

[PAXIMUS]

What if you were wrongfully accused of statutory rape with an underage female and the cops came to your house and saw the classic Nabokav book Lolita on your bookshelf and the prosecution used it to show that you are in fact a pervert because you own that book?

I bet you would be singing a different tune then wouldnt you?

Everyone hates defense attorneys till they need one I suppose.

 

[pennydawn]

I agree that everyone deserves a fair shake, and maybe it's true that everyone hates defense attorneys until he needs one.

But what if these were YOUR children? I'm not commenting here so much on the law, or the burden of proof, as I am on my generally appalled feeling that people abuse children, destroy evidence, threaten the children to keep them behind a steel curtain of fear for most of their lives, and then are afforded get-out-of-jail-free cards because the evidence falls under the "inflammatory" umbrella. I understand that this is the way things are, but I don't have to like it.

JMO: I hardly think Nabakov should be paralleled with Family Taboo, here...

 

[newcomer]

"Some of the videos seized were home movies with unknown content. Others were pornographic in nature with titles like "Mystery Voyeur" and "Pornochio." A number of sex toys were also taken, including a penis pump and four plastic dildos."

I am dying to know what's on the videos of "unknown content". It might turn out that whether he possessed incest pornograghy or not will be irrelevant. I'll bet there's a bunch of incriminating video on those tapes.

Another point, I wonder who the wife thought he was using the sex toys on? I see the penis pump he would use on himself, but the plastic dildos?? Also, suppose they could get DNA off the dildos? That could be very telling...

 

[jjenny]

I don't think the legality of the material has any bearing on whether it is admissible. If it tends to show one way or the other that this person who is charged with sexual abuse of family members had a propensity for this type of activity, it could be relevant. Yah, I'd try as hard as I could to get it tossed too, but you gotta admit a collection of this type of material fits with the alleged acts. It may be inflammatory or prejudicial, but it is relevant.

A lot of things can be relevant yet not admissible.

 

[jjenny]

I don't think the legality of the material has any bearing on whether it is admissible. If it tends to show one way or the other that this person who is charged with sexual abuse of family members had a propensity for this type of activity, it could be relevant. Yah, I'd try as hard as I could to get it tossed too, but you gotta admit a collection of this type of material fits with the alleged acts. It may be inflammatory or prejudicial, but it is relevant.

A lot of things can be relevant yet not admissible.

 

[jjenny]

I don't mean to pester you, but can you please explain *why* books/magazines/movies, etc spotlighting incest would be inadmissible as evidence in a case where someone is facing rape charges against a grandchild, daughter or niece.

I understand how this legal material could not be admissible in say for instance a crime such as embezzling-- sounds irrelevant to me unless there was a very strong connection between embezzling & incestuous abuse.

However, this legal material does sound very relevant...and I certainly understand any defense attorney worth his salt would argue for said legal material to *not* be admitted as evidence.

On what grounds would it not be admitted??


TIA!!

Because it doesn't prove guilt yet can be prejudicial to the defendant. Just because someone was watching a video doesn't prove someone committed a crime, yet this information can influence the jury. The judge will have to make a decision on that.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I agree that everyone deserves a fair shake, and maybe it's true that everyone hates defense attorneys until he needs one.

But what if these were YOUR children? I'm not commenting here so much on the law, or the burden of proof, as I am on my generally appalled feeling that people abuse children, destroy evidence, threaten the children to keep them behind a steel curtain of fear for most of their lives, and then are afforded get-out-of-jail-free cards because the evidence falls under the "inflammatory" umbrella. I understand that this is the way things are, but I don't have to like it.

JMO: I hardly think Nabakov should be paralleled with Family Taboo, here...

I am certainly NOT defending such magazines I am only pointing out that they are protected free speech and that an argument could be made that because they are inflammatory they are therefore inadmissible.

One's reading material doesnt prove guilt any more than the color of their hair, the music they listen to or the church they attend.

We could introduce the Book of Mormon in this case since it does speak of polygamy and spiritual weddings also but I dont think that would go over too well.

What if they were my kids you ask? I would probably take matters in to my own hands. I wont lie to you.

 

[jjenny]

Yes, and that could be the explanation for the giant "300 pound man" as well. He could have been 5'5" and weighed 150 and he would have seemed huge to little girls.

Whatever the man is giant or tiny, he is supposed to be buried on the property. And so far police have not found any bodies. Maybe that's a big property so the body could take some time to find.
But the baby is supposed to be buried in the basement underneath the floor.
How hard would it be to dig the baby up if it did happen?

 

[jjenny]

I disagree.

In the majority of child sexual abuse cases there isn't conclusive physical evidence. Most convictions are gained by nothing more than a child's testimony.

Children usually don't report until long after the incident. Most victims don't contract a STD and most don't have the kinds scars necessary for conclusive evidence. Cases with multiple victims, add to that... unrelated victims usually end in conviction. Top it all off with some incest and it's a super strong case.

This particular case is going to be difficult because of the media coverage and the horrific nature of the crimes. Also making it more difficult...it's in the bible belt. People simply prefer to believe things like this don't happen.

Yea well some of the people convicted just on the child's testimony without physical evidence are released later on, and are paid a lot of money for being wrongly convicted of child molestation. There is thread on this board about a guy (John Stoll) who just got five million $ for being wrongly convicted for child molestation.

 

[pennydawn]

I am certainly NOT defending such magazines I am only pointing out that they are protected free speech and that an argument could be made that because they are inflammatory they are therefore inadmissible.

One's reading material doesnt prove guilt any more than the color of their hair, the music they listen to or the church they attend.

We could introduce the Book of Mormon in this case since it does speak of polygamy and spiritual weddings also but I dont think that would go over too well.

What if they were my kids you ask? I would probably take matters in to my own hands. I wont lie to you.

Hey, Pax...I wasn't directly asking you (sorry if it seemed that way, which I suppose it did with my Nabakov vs. Family Taboo commentary.) I simply wanted to raise the question about the games involved in justice. My apologies.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I have no problem with investigators using the pornographic literature to build their case. If they have a victim alleging incest and child rape and they find incest magazines I have no problem with them using those magazines to justify probable cause and file charges but if the state tried to introduce that literature as evidence during a trial I would object and continue to object until the court held me in contempt and threw me in jail and then when I get out I would object again and keep objecting until they threw me in jail once more.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Hey, Pax...I wasn't directly asking you (sorry if it seemed that way, which I suppose it did with my Nabakov vs. Family Taboo commentary.) I simply wanted to raise the question about the games involved in justice. My apologies.

Its ok, they were very good question and you should always question everything, dont ever take anything I say without questioning it first, I clearly have an agenda and I dont hide it, my agenda is protecting those who are accused of crimes and their rights, liberty and freedom stolen from them, my agenda is to make sure the state does its job right before it locks human beings up in cages as if they were animals.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Its ok, they were very good question and you should always question everything, dont ever take anything I say without questioning it first, I clearly have an agenda and I dont hide it, my agenda is protecting those who are accused of crimes and their rights, liberty and freedom stolen from them, my agenda is to make sure the state does its job right before it locks human beings up in cages as if they were animals.

Have you ever had to look in a child or their mothers eyes and explain why a known sexual predator molested him/her or their child while free because of great lawyering..... after ya got him off on it previously?

Just wondering how lawyers that defend twisted scum bags that prey on children sleep at night? Look at themselves in the mirror every morning?

I'll never understand it.

 

[Texas Mist]

Looks like the Mohlers, with exception of Jared, do not have attorneys yet


<snip>

Most of the men did not have lawyers Wednesday, according to the Lafayette County clerk's office. Jared Mohler's lawyer, Tim Larimore, did not return calls seeking comment.

....
November 18, 2009 - 8:19 p.m. CST



http://www.statesman.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/National/US_Family_Sex_Crimes.html

 

[Fairy1]

What if you were wrongfully accused of statutory rape with an underage female and the cops came to your house and saw the classic Nabokav book Lolita on your bookshelf and the prosecution used it to show that you are in fact a pervert because you own that book?

I bet you would be singing a different tune then wouldnt you?

Everyone hates defense attorneys till they need one I suppose.

This is a good point Pax, but not at all the same situation. You're comparing statutory rape and literature to child rape, incest and . Apples and oranges.

I'm no attorney, but in this case, with specifically depicting incestuous behavior with children found in the possession of the accused, I would hope it would be admissable - and relevant.

 

[jjenny]

Have you ever had to look in a child or their mothers eyes and explain why a known sexual predator molested him/her or their child while free because of great lawyering..... after ya got him off on it previously?

Just wondering how lawyers that defend twisted scum bags that prey on children sleep at night? Look at themselves in the mirror every morning?

I'll never understand it.

And what about innocent people who are falsely accused? They don't matter?
A boy in my high school was falsely accused of being a serial rapist. If he didn't have a lawyer who figured out what went on, he might have ended up in prison. He actually falsely confessed because police told him they had evidence against him and he would be better off confessing. And police kept after him until they found the real perp.
His life could have been completely ruined.

 

[Linda7NJ]

And what about innocent people who are falsely accused? They don't matter?
A boy in my high school was falsely accused of being a serial rapist. If he didn't have a lawyer who figured out what went on, he might have ended up in prison.
His life could have been completely ruined.

Innocent people don't need the the type of tactics I'm talking about.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Have you ever had to look in a child or their mothers eyes and explain why a known sexual predator molested him/her or their child while free because of great lawyering..... after ya got him off on it previously?

Just wondering how lawyers that defend twisted scum bags that prey on children sleep at night? Look at themselves in the mirror every morning?

I'll never understand it.

Lose a lot of sleep over it but its also very rewarding when you return an innocent man wrongfully imprisoned home and back in to the arms of his wife and children.

We have a system and it requires advocates on both sides. Its not perfect but someone has to look out for those wrongfully accused and unfortunately that sometimes means letting the guilty walk free.

 

[PAXIMUS]

And what about innocent people who are falsely accused? They don't matter?
A boy in my high school was falsely accused of being a serial rapist. If he didn't have a lawyer who figured out what went on, he might have ended up in prison. He actually falsely confessed because police told him they had evidence against him and he would be better off confessing. And police kept after him until they found the real perp.
His life could have been completely ruined.

Sadly Jenny this is an experience that many people need to go through themselves before they are really able to appreciate having a defense lawyer at their side, perhaps the only person in the world willing to fight for them when everone else has turned on them even though they are innocent.