MO MO - St Louis, BlkFem 8-11, 54UFMO, in abandoned bldg, Feb'83

[WhyaDuck?]

A MySpace page for her:

http://www.myspace.com/476258141

 

[not_my_kids]

Yes, she was wearing 2 coats of red nail polish.

 

[not_my_kids]

Jovanna crawford, also ruled out. I think I forgot that one.

 

[not_my_kids]

I'm beginning to wonder if any of the unidentified black females of child bearing age have been checked for familial relation...maybe she wasn't reported because the only person to report her was also dead.

Also wondering about the tag being removed from her shirt, could indicate that she was a foster child or lived in a group home, an environment where her initials or name would have been written inside or maybe an out of country maker, which would also be telling.

I have also been kicking around the idea that maybe there was an identifying mark on her neck, which would have meant removing her head as well. It just strikes me odd that she was decapitated so far down, almost below the neck. The only thing that I get for that kind of beheading is the effective decapitation of fowl before cooking. So maybe there is something there, with a slaughterhouse connection.

I also have it on good authority, from a boating semi expert, that the rope is or very well could be Pelican brand Tow Rope for water skis or other water toys. Not the type of thing to just be laying around in winter in MO. But that is so far unsubstantiated and only a semi educated guess. I know nothing about rope, so I take it at face value. Pelican was a very popular brand, I was able to gather that much.

 

[Kymistry35]

I wonder if she was a victim of human trafficking? If she is an immigrant, I am leaning towards Haitian...does anyone know if there is a large Haitian population there? Maybe that would have been a good place for the police to question people?

 

[Laura_Bean]

As I said, didn't notice the wrong dates until after I posted. So yes, I do apologize for that mistake. As for Vernon being her killer, one thing I don't get is why he would cut her head off when he didn't do that with even one other victim. It doesn't seem to me that he cared whether or not he was convicted for anything or who knew the victim or what. So why suddenly change his MO and cut off the head of THIS little girl? I don't get that. Not saying it can't be him but I just don't see him cutting off the head of this child.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

I'm beginning to wonder if any of the unidentified black females of child bearing age have been checked for familial relation...maybe she wasn't reported because the only person to report her was also dead.

Also wondering about the tag being removed from her shirt, could indicate that she was a foster child or lived in a group home, an environment where her initials or name would have been written inside or maybe an out of country maker, which would also be telling.

I have also been kicking around the idea that maybe there was an identifying mark on her neck, which would have meant removing her head as well. It just strikes me odd that she was decapitated so far down, almost below the neck. The only thing that I get for that kind of beheading is the effective decapitation of fowl before cooking. So maybe there is something there, with a slaughterhouse connection.

I also have it on good authority, from a boating semi expert, that the rope is or very well could be Pelican brand Tow Rope for water skis or other water toys. Not the type of thing to just be laying around in winter in MO. But that is so far unsubstantiated and only a semi educated guess. I know nothing about rope, so I take it at face value. Pelican was a very popular brand, I was able to gather that much.

I agree with your thinking- I thought the manner of her decapitation was unusual too. Taking the whole neck takes a lot more work than just cutting through. Can you ask if this kind of rope is ever used on barges? St. Louis is a major hub for barges, maybe this person picked up the rope off a barge or a tug boat he worked on.

 

[Laura_Bean]

Okay guys, I've done a ton of research today. Looking for someone who did this type of thing. After a lot of research I have come up with a serial killer who is now on death row for all he has done.

Ever heard of Douglas Daniel Clark?

http://www.askaserialkiller.com/douglas-daniel-clark/

The link is his own personal website. Yes aparentally some death row inmates have computer access. I sent him a question about this case, just to see what sort of response he will give me. I asked for his help basically flattered him telling him even if he didn't do it, I could really use his opinion on the type of person we are looking for.

A while back he was claiming innocence and throwing his old ex-girl under the bus. Now he seems to openly admitting he has done things. Someone has already asked if there are any cases he did but wasn't linked to and he wrote back, three. THREE cases we know of that have never been linked to him. Now listen to what we KNOW he has done.

 

[Laura_Bean]

In 1980, in California, (and because this other case happened in a different state, I think if he did do it, he would not be linked to it because he always worked, as far as we now know, in CA), Douglas and his girlfriend at the time Carol Bundy, prowled the streets of CA. Soon after Douglas and Carol got together, (she had low self esteem due to being an abused child and than recentally running from an abusive husband), their relationship soon became abusive and even criminal.

Carol had come into the relationship with two children. Douglas beat the children. Douglas also had other sexual partners. He would bring home people to have sex with, some as young as eleven years of age. He would make Carol take pictures of them. Than he began telling Carol he wanted to murder girls, and that it was a "fantasy" of his.

In June of 1980, Douglas got his chance. He and Carol lured two young teenage girls into his van and they were repeatedly raped and forced to "perform" on each other. Later that month he lured two prostitutes into the van and raped and murdered both of them. He decapitated one of them and took her head home as some sort of gruesome suvinere and later used the head for "sexul acts".

 

[Laura_Bean]

He was dubbed the "Sunset Slayer" because he mostly worked on Sunset Blvd in CA.

His girlfriend got a man to go to the van to have sex with her, and decapitated him after he was killed, afraid someone would remember seeing the two together before he was killed.

In 1983, the girlfriend broke down while at work. She told other nurses that she had killed people and was a bad person. They than called police and she was taken in. While she claimed she had nothing to do with the murders, but that her boyfriend did it all, he claimed the same, saying his girlfriend was the real murderer and he had nothing to do with it. He was sentenced to the death penalty and still sits today on death row.

I think HIS mo fits this crime. Several victims were tied up when found, and many of them had their heads missing... What do you all think?

 

[not_my_kids]

I think it's possible.
I can't get the link to work (PC is screwy) but were his victims black or white? Just because serials don't usually cross racial boundaries...although it has been getting more common.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

He was dubbed the "Sunset Slayer" because he mostly worked on Sunset Blvd in CA.

His girlfriend got a man to go to the van to have sex with her, and decapitated him after he was killed, afraid someone would remember seeing the two together before he was killed.

In 1983, the girlfriend broke down while at work. She told other nurses that she had killed people and was a bad person. They than called police and she was taken in. While she claimed she had nothing to do with the murders, but that her boyfriend did it all, he claimed the same, saying his girlfriend was the real murderer and he had nothing to do with it. He was sentenced to the death penalty and still sits today on death row.

I think HIS mo fits this crime. Several victims were tied up when found, and many of them had their heads missing... What do you all think?

While you can never depend on a serial killer to do the same thing, I can't think of any Clark/Bundy victims that were left inside buildings. Clark/Bundy usually dumped the bodies in ditches, embankments- but basically out in the open. I also think that Clark/Bundy would have stuck out in that neighborhood. In 1983 the neighborhood she was found in was mostly African American, whomever killed her had to be reasonably sure he wouldn't be seen or noticed (IMHO)- but, you never know- its not a bad idea to check and see where Clark/Bundy were- thinking outside the box has solved cases!

 

[Laura_Bean]

All I can think to answer that, is perhaps by than he knew they were on to him. Maybe he figured his girlfriend was close to cracking the information, which she did. Maybe he thought, it was time to be more careful to change things up. I don't know. As to whether his victims were black or white, I can't find anything on the victims, been looking since your last post. Good question though.

 

[Laura_Bean]

Oh and the out in the open thing.... On his website he says three cases were never linked to him, when he was asked by someone on his website. Although we can never truly believe a serial killer, I wonder if he is telling the truth. He was specific on the number that they never pinned him down on. I think if he was lying, he would have just simply said yes, or no. Why the number 3? Also I would tend to believe, if the bodies were left in the open, in a ditch or on a road, someone would have found them and linked them because it would be the exact same MO that he had with the other victims. Just a thought

 

[not_my_kids]

For serials, the act is inspired by the fantasy. So maybe there was someone that he wanted to shock or a point he wanted to make, which altered the fantasy and altered his dump pattern. Maybe he was ashamed at some part of this particular murder, as some serials are not true sociopaths and can feel shame, and for that reason, his subconscious told him to hide her.

After getting a look at her hands in the crime scene photos, I am definitely ruling out any idea of her being brought in from another country for the purpose of domestic slavery.
Part of my also wants to rule out parental, or at least maternal, involvement. Face down, hands behind her, uncovered below the waist, that's not a parent.
I wonder about the age estimation too. In the pictures, (please no one think I am a sicko, it hurt to look at them, but I had to) it also looked like she was too curvy to be a completely prepubescent child. I think I did a pretty good job of figuring out what was body style and what was bloating, but I don't know for sure. I know that developmental charting and skeletal age can be wrong, and they have done DNA on girls as old as 13, so I think LE might doubt the estimation too.

(Sorry if I ramble, TheraFlu, lots of Theraflu.)

 

[Snufamonbobball]

For serials, the act is inspired by the fantasy. So maybe there was someone that he wanted to shock or a point he wanted to make, which altered the fantasy and altered his dump pattern. Maybe he was ashamed at some part of this particular murder, as some serials are not true sociopaths and can feel shame, and for that reason, his subconscious told him to hide her.

After getting a look at her hands in the crime scene photos, I am definitely ruling out any idea of her being brought in from another country for the purpose of domestic slavery.
Part of my also wants to rule out parental, or at least maternal, involvement. Face down, hands behind her, uncovered below the waist, that's not a parent.
I wonder about the age estimation too. In the pictures, (please no one think I am a sicko, it hurt to look at them, but I had to) it also looked like she was too curvy to be a completely prepubescent child. I think I did a pretty good job of figuring out what was body style and what was bloating, but I don't know for sure. I know that developmental charting and dental age can be wrong, and they have done DNA on girls as old as 13, so I think LE might doubt the estimation too.

(Sorry if I ramble, TheraFlu, lots of Theraflu.)

I think Alton Coleman could be a likely suspect. Take a peek at his history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton_Coleman

 

[not_my_kids]

Possibilities for her head, sent in today. I'm lazy, so I'm just gonna copy and paste the body of the email.

This about Headless Jane Doe (she really needs a better name) or NCIC # U-470002710
I have some links for heads. Nothing that you have to get to immediately. But this way, we can both keep track of them. Feel free to go through them at your convenience.

15-70 year old NCIC# U580023124. Race, sex undetermined. San Bernardino County, CA. Found 6-10-2009, had been there 3-20 years. Cranial vault (upper portion of skull) only.
https://identifyus.org/?p=case&i=5323&🤬🤬🤬=0&s=DateFound_DESC&from=search

Found 9-28-2005, confiscated human skull at Miami Intl. Airport. 7-9 year old child, race and sex undetermined. Granted, it was coming into the U.S. but I have no info on if it could have originated here. No NCIC number, but there is coroner info available.
https://identifyus.org/?p=case&i=134&🤬🤬🤬=16&s=DateFound_DESC&from=search

Found 1-24-1999 in San Bernardino, CA and the Date of death on it is 1995-1999, but the profile is a mess, it appears to be skull only, 15-80 years old, it gives the dentals and then says that dentals are not available. So, at least some of the info is off and it might not be a bad idea to contact. I tried, but some coroner's won't talk without a badge to back up the request. NCIC# U280004401
https://identifyus.org/?p=case&i=2502&🤬🤬🤬=51&s=DateFound_DESC&from=search

NCIC # U629250767 found 3-5-1993 in Hidalgo County, TX, thought to be the skull only of a small child, race unknown. Approx. date of death is a little off.
https://identifyus.org/?p=case&i=3810&🤬🤬🤬=79&s=DateFound_DESC&from=search

NCIC# U190017209 found 7-13-1984 in Los Angeles Co. CA. Jaw bone of a person 11-14 years old, race and sex undetermined. Approx date of death was 1984.
https://identifyus.org/?p=case&i=4227&🤬🤬🤬=124&s=DateFound_DESC&from=search

 

[Laura_Bean]

I disagree that it was Alton. Although some things seem to fit, I have something to say here. You DON'T start out beheading a small child and moving to just strangeling and not removing heads. You start out just raping and murdering and move ON to cutting off heads. I could be wrong but that's what I think. You don't start out doing the worst and move on to lesser charges. I think this girl was someone's LAST victim, not their first or second.

 

[not_my_kids]

I disagree that it was Alton. Although some things seem to fit, I have something to say here. You DON'T start out beheading a small child and moving to just strangeling and not removing heads. You start out just raping and murdering and move ON to cutting off heads. I could be wrong but that's what I think. You don't start out doing the worst and move on to lesser charges. I think this girl was someone's LAST victim, not their first or second.

I'm with you there. You don't go backwards from decapitation. I've been looking into UID's and murders with hesitation marks on the neck. Like they wanted to take the head and couldn't.
But unless it was someone that only took her head or neck for the reason of making ID difficult, then there is no way, IMO, that this person went out, cut off her head, and then sedately went back to strangling people.
I'm not convinced that she was a last vic. There are a lot of heads out there with no body to be found. It seems like decapitation is a little more common than I thought. There could have been others after her.
The exception to this would be if Alton were working with a different partner in 1982-1983, and the strangulation was his fetish, the decapitation theirs.

 

[Spurser]

Alton and Debra were featured on Wicked Attraction yesterday (A & E). Very disgusting individuals.

This is such a sad case. You guys are doing great work here.