Molested with the handle?

[BOESP]

I KWYM,I'd like to think they didn't.
Something made her bleed though,as blood was wiped away on her thigh.I can't help but think the handle brushed against her as someone removed it and put it down....

I have speculated whether or not the "corporal cleaning" could have caused the blood. I've also considered whether blood dripping from the nose, caused by the head wound, could have fallen on her thighs then swished around on the thigh(s) with a wet washcloth.

 

[BOESP]

No this is what item 3. assumes? Shards of wood from the paintbrush were recovered from outside the wine-cellar door.


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I think the cord was likely placed on JonBenet at the wine cellar entrance. I think the brush broke when whoever placed the cord around her neck pulled on the ligature to tighten it. Whoever pulled the cord either knew she was not quite dead and thus wanted to kill her (a mercy killing) or else thought she was already dead and added the ligature as an afterthought, thinking it was a good camouflage element.

This, however, does not explain the vaginal splinter if indeed the splinter came from the paintbrush.

Does anyone have ideas about JonBenet being naked from at least the waist down when taken to the basement then maybe redressed with clothing out of the basement dryer? That could explain the splinter if she was not yet completely dressed when the ligature was applied (if the splinter came from the brush). It could also account for the size 12 panties if they were still packaged as a gift and in the basement.

The above are my speculations only.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think the cord was likely placed on JonBenet at the wine cellar entrance. I think the brush broke when whoever placed the cord around her neck pulled on the ligature to tighten it. Whoever pulled the cord either knew she was not quite dead and thus wanted to kill her (a mercy killing) or else thought she was already dead and added the ligature as an afterthought, thinking it was a good camouflage element.

This, however, does not explain the vaginal splinter if indeed the splinter came from the paintbrush.

Does anyone have ideas about JonBenet being naked from at least the waist down when taken to the basement then maybe redressed with clothing out of the basement dryer? That could explain the splinter if she was not yet completely dressed when the ligature was applied (if the splinter came from the brush). It could also account for the size 12 panties if they were still packaged as a gift and in the basement.

The above are my speculations only.

What ST meant by "corporal cleansing" is simply corporal punishment. It is corporal (physical) punishment done by vigorously and roughly using a washcloth and/or douche in her vagina. This was MEANT to be unpleasant and painful, to discourage JBR from soiling her pants.
I think it is entirely possible that JBR was naked from the waist down at the time the sexual assault took place. And it is very possible that the long johns were in the dryer along with the white blanket she was found in. Of course if this was the case, there can be NO DOUBT that the Rs were involved because PR told LE she dressed JBR in the long johns when they got home. Because the body was found wearing the long johns, PR had to say she was the one who put them on her because they had to make it believeable that they did not see her from the time she put her to bed till the time the body was brought up from the basement.
What I do NOT see as plausible is blood dripping from her nose to her thighs. Too far-fetched. That seems like grasping at any straw to not concede that SOMEONE penetrated her vagina with enough force as to cause bleeding. There WAS blood in the vagina. That says, to me, that the blood on her thighs came from that area.

 

[JMO8778]

What ST meant by "corporal cleansing" is simply corporal punishment. It is corporal (physical) punishment done by vigorously and roughly using a washcloth and/or douche in her vagina. This was MEANT to be unpleasant and painful, to discourage JBR from soiling her pants.

I think this is why JB saw the school nurse,as well as why Patsy called the Dr 3x within 10 mins...yet couldn't recall why.I can't imagine the pain she was in..the poor thing.
Patsy really was nuts.Sorry,she just was.

I totally suspect one of Patsy's fits is the reason the Christmas morning video disappeared...JR himself precludes to that in DOI,when he says Patsy shrugged it off that JB didn't like the doll.But I bet she threw one heck of a fit over it ! As well as when JB didn't want to dress like her mom..I think Patsy took all of it personally,instead of just seeing it as a normal 6 yo.

 

[JMO8778]

I have speculated whether or not the "corporal cleaning" could have caused the blood.

good thought,could be.I guess it would depend on whether a douche was used that night,as it appears an internal abrasion caused the bleeding?

 

[DeeDee249]

Remember, PR did NOT think of her daughter as a "normal 6-yr-old". To her, JBR was a mini-superstar, and future Miss America. She also saw JBR as an extension of herself. And JBR was somewhat resistant to that. I don't think PR was able to handle it when JBR showed any independent behavior or resistance to PR's wishes.

 

[JMO8778]

Remember, PR did NOT think of her daughter as a "normal 6-yr-old". To her, JBR was a mini-superstar, and future Miss America. She also saw JBR as an extension of herself. And JBR was somewhat resistant to that. I don't think PR was able to handle it when JBR showed any independent behavior or resistance to PR's wishes.

I agree.

 

[UKGuy]

What ST meant by "corporal cleansing" is simply corporal punishment. It is corporal (physical) punishment done by vigorously and roughly using a washcloth and/or douche in her vagina. This was MEANT to be unpleasant and painful, to discourage JBR from soiling her pants.
I think it is entirely possible that JBR was naked from the waist down at the time the sexual assault took place. And it is very possible that the long johns were in the dryer along with the white blanket she was found in. Of course if this was the case, there can be NO DOUBT that the Rs were involved because PR told LE she dressed JBR in the long johns when they got home. Because the body was found wearing the long johns, PR had to say she was the one who put them on her because they had to make it believeable that they did not see her from the time she put her to bed till the time the body was brought up from the basement.
What I do NOT see as plausible is blood dripping from her nose to her thighs. Too far-fetched. That seems like grasping at any straw to not concede that SOMEONE penetrated her vagina with enough force as to cause bleeding. There WAS blood in the vagina. That says, to me, that the blood on her thighs came from that area.

DeeDee249,
If Steve Thomas thought that corporal cleansing or corporal punishment was the lead theory, you have to wonder why they explicitly searched for child ?

Blood dripping from JonBenet's nose to her thighs takes us into the land of wish fulfilment theories alike Lou Smit's experienced garroter. Would this mean JonBenet was still alive sitting up, dripping blood, or was she raised so that the blood could just happen to drip towards such a sensitive area, without being noticed? Just as her urine-soaked longjohns went unnoticed presumably after being killed for either wetting them or the bed?

There was not only blood on her thighs but also on the size-12's and on her genitals, and it was wiped clean, so someone was attempting to hide a genital injury.

If it was staging and if we were to have any injuries allocated to the anonymous intruder why bother cleaning or hiding the injury, why not just blame it all on an intruder after all, the intruder is going to be made to blame for her death?

There are two potential answers to this and the simplest is JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to her death, and it is this that is being obscured from view so to strengthen the kidnap staging?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I have speculated whether or not the "corporal cleaning" could have caused the blood. I've also considered whether blood dripping from the nose, caused by the head wound, could have fallen on her thighs then swished around on the thigh(s) with a wet washcloth.

BOESP,
They could have, but would such corporal cleaning not leave distictive marks on JonBenet's genitals. Also fibers allegedly belonging John's israeli manufactured shirt were found in JonBenet's crotch area, so who was doing the corporal cleaning?

Also any blood from JonBenet's nose, assuming it was bleeding as a result of her skull fracture, would be chemically different from that issued from her genitals, so this would be testable.


.

 

[UKGuy]

ok,but why couldn't it have been JR? His fiber evidence is there,too.Yes,I know it's not on the garrotte,but,he could have handled just the brush,and not the rope itself.He could have been the one to break it,and hand the rest of it to Patsy for the garrotte,no?

JMO8778,
Could have happened, this then assumes Patsy watches as he genitally injures JonBenet?



.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,
They could have, but would such corporal cleaning not leave distictive marks on JonBenet's genitals. Also fibers allegedly belonging John's israeli manufactured shirt were found in JonBenet's crotch area, so who was doing the corporal cleaning?

Also any blood from JonBenet's nose, assuming it was bleeding as a result of her skull fracture, would be chemically different from that issued from her genitals, so this would be testable.


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I couldn't speculate on the above unless I knew what Steve Thomas meant by corporal cleaning. I suspect he was purposely vague in using that term.

The black fibers consistent with John's Israeli shirt need to be accounted for. They could be secondary transference from Patsy, who assumedly had contact with John on the night of December 25. On the other hand, John could have been involved in molesting or staging, or Patsy or someone else could have used John's shirt to improvise a cleaning cloth.

The autopsy describes a "semiliquid thin watery red fluid ... in the vaginal vault..." Since Dr. Meyer specifically uses the word "blood" to describe actual blood in this same body region, don't you think he would have said "semi-coagulated substance that appears to be blood" if he thought the substance was blood? He also uses the term "red areas of staining" to describe stains on her panties yet in other descriptions he plainly says "blood." I think Dr. Meyer is making a difference here in what he is describing. Whether it is blood-tinged mucous, a liquid such as water mixed with blood or douching fluid or other substance I can not say.

 

[coloradokares]

I couldn't speculate on the above unless I knew what Steve Thomas meant by corporal cleaning. I suspect he was purposefully vague in using that term.

The black fibers consistent with John's Israeli shirt need to be accounted for. They could be secondary transference from Patsy, who assumedly had contact with John on the night of December 25. On the other hand, John could have been involved in molesting or staging, or Patsy or someone else could have used John's shirt to improvise a cleaning cloth.

The autopsy describes a "semiliquid thin watery red fluid ... in the vaginal vault..." Since Dr. Meyer specifically uses the word "blood" to describe actual blood in this same body region, don't you think he would have said "semi-coagulated substance that appears to be blood" if he thought the substance was blood? He also uses the term "red areas of staining" to describe stains on her panties yet in other descriptions he plainly says "blood." I think Dr. Meyer is making a difference here in what he is describing. Whether it is blood-tinged mucous, a liquid such as water mixed with blood or douching fluid or other substance I can not say.

That is a very profound observation. Profound

 

[UKGuy]

I couldn't speculate on the above unless I knew what Steve Thomas meant by corporal cleaning. I suspect he was purposely vague in using that term.

The black fibers consistent with John's Israeli shirt need to be accounted for. They could be secondary transference from Patsy, who assumedly had contact with John on the night of December 25. On the other hand, John could have been involved in molesting or staging, or Patsy or someone else could have used John's shirt to improvise a cleaning cloth.

The autopsy describes a "semiliquid thin watery red fluid ... in the vaginal vault..." Since Dr. Meyer specifically uses the word "blood" to describe actual blood in this same body region, don't you think he would have said "semi-coagulated substance that appears to be blood" if he thought the substance was blood? He also uses the term "red areas of staining" to describe stains on her panties yet in other descriptions he plainly says "blood." I think Dr. Meyer is making a difference here in what he is describing. Whether it is blood-tinged mucous, a liquid such as water mixed with blood or douching fluid or other substance I can not say.

BOESP,

"red areas of staining"

In the context of an autopsy and a sexual injury, red areas of staining are probably a descriptive phrase for exactly what Coroner Meyer observes.

The autopsy describes a "semiliquid thin watery red fluid ... in the vaginal vault..." Since Dr. Meyer specifically uses the word "blood" to describe actual blood in this same body region, don't you think he would have said "semi-coagulated substance that appears to be blood" if he thought the substance was blood?

Plainly when he thinks he sees blood he describes it as such, otherwise he opts for semiliquid thin watery red fluid which is likely to be to be what it seems. The presence of water could be explained as a consequence of JonBenet being wiped down?

The presence of any douching chemicals immediately offers another explanation?

.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

In the context of an autopsy and a sexual injury, red areas of staining are probably a descriptive phrase for exactly what Coroner Meyer observes.


Plainly when he thinks he sees blood he describes it as such, otherwise he opts for semiliquid thin watery red fluid which is likely to be to be what it seems. The presence of water could be explained as a consequence of JonBenet being wiped down?

The presence of any douching chemicals immediately offers another explanation?

.

I just don't think there's enough information for me to speculate what Meyer meant except when he used the word "blood."

There are so many clues that stand out in the autopsy. However, I just don't see anything that suggests, to me, that she was molested with a fine-art paintbrush handle. Digital penetration seems most likely. Based on Steve Thomas's statement about "corporal cleansing," along with the autopsy, it seems possible Patsy may have used a cloth around a finger and inserted it to "clean" JonBenet. My other guess is a douche but there is no evidence known to the public about that except hearsay attributed from secondary sources.

Regardless of my speculations, the autopsy doesn't suggest Stranger-Intruder molestation. Men who take that chance of getting caught leave a lot more physical damage to the child's body. If this was a pervert who entered the home unknowingly and who molested JonBenet, it also would have been likely that semen would have been found.

 

[Solace]

I just don't think there's enough information for me to speculate what Meyer meant except when he used the word "blood."

There are so many clues that stand out in the autopsy. However, I just don't see anything that suggests, to me, that she was molested with a fine-art paintbrush handle. Digital penetration seems most likely. Based on Steve Thomas's statement about "corporal cleansing," along with the autopsy, it seems possible Patsy may have used a cloth around a finger and inserted it to "clean" JonBenet. My other guess is a douche but there is no evidence known to the public about that except hearsay attributed from secondary sources.

Regardless of my speculations, the autopsy doesn't suggest Stranger-Intruder molestation. Men who take that chance of getting caught leave a lot more physical damage to the child's body. If this was a pervert who entered the home unknowingly and who molested JonBenet, it also would have been likely that semen would have been found.

I think it is as Thomas says. I think Patsy was tired of it and I think she wanted it to stop, the rashes, etc. and I think she was very severe in handling it per Linda Hoffman saying she heard daily crying from JonBenet and Patsy yelling.

That is horrible for anyone to go through. No child should go through it ever. We only have Linda saying this and of course she could be lying - she knows Patsy named her - so she is untrustworthy. I think there is some level of truth to it though.

 

[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,
If Steve Thomas thought that corporal cleansing or corporal punishment was the lead theory, you have to wonder why they explicitly searched for child ?

Blood dripping from JonBenet's nose to her thighs takes us into the land of wish fulfilment theories alike Lou Smit's experienced garroter. Would this mean JonBenet was still alive sitting up, dripping blood, or was she raised so that the blood could just happen to drip towards such a sensitive area, without being noticed? Just as her urine-soaked longjohns went unnoticed presumably after being killed for either wetting them or the bed?

There was not only blood on her thighs but also on the size-12's and on her genitals, and it was wiped clean, so someone was attempting to hide a genital injury.

If it was staging and if we were to have any injuries allocated to the anonymous intruder why bother cleaning or hiding the injury, why not just blame it all on an intruder after all, the intruder is going to be made to blame for her death?

There are two potential answers to this and the simplest is JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to her death, and it is this that is being obscured from view so to strengthen the kidnap staging?


.

I see it as a panic-driven thought to get her out of the house.Once it was decided this would not happen,she was wiped down,redressed and covered.
The obvious sexual staging..such as the splinter being left behind (although not on purpose,I'm sure),and 'denying her remains' in the RN all say this was what the original plan was.But it was a panic driven thought,and one they didn't carry out,for whatever reason.
Once she is to be found inside,removing the staged assault becomes important to JR...he does not want to get the blame for the sexual assault!
So she is then wiped down (as his fiber evidence indicates),dressed in NEW underwear (even the fact it's too big outweighs the need for it to be NEW-no R dna on it),dressed in the longjohns and covered w the blanket (both clean,right out of the dryer,IMO)..only they didn't know that some blood leaked out !
call 911 and let the show begin...

 

[JMO8778]

If it was staging and if we were to have any injuries allocated to the anonymous intruder why bother cleaning or hiding the injury, why not just blame it all on an intruder after all, the intruder is going to be made to blame for her death?




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but they couldn't be sure of that...don't you think JR would have been very very nervous about leaving a female child in the same house w. a sexaul assault found on her??

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Could have happened, this then assumes Patsy watches as he genitally injures JonBenet?



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her fibers indicate she was present at some point,do they not? there,doesn't necessarily means she looked on though.
plus I think it was done for staging purposes...both of which they had a hand in.

 

[JMO8778]

Also any blood from JonBenet's nose, assuming it was bleeding as a result of her skull fracture, would be chemically different from that issued from her genitals, so this would be testable.


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Yes,I would think it would be.

 

[UKGuy]

I see it as a panic-driven thought to get her out of the house.Once it was decided this would not happen,she was wiped down,redressed and covered.
The obvious sexual staging..such as the splinter being left behind (although not on purpose,I'm sure),and 'denying her remains' in the RN all say this was what the original plan was.But it was a panic driven thought,and one they didn't carry out,for whatever reason.
Once she is to be found inside,removing the staged assault becomes important to JR...he does not want to get the blame for the sexual assault!
So she is then wiped down (as his fiber evidence indicates),dressed in NEW underwear (even the fact it's too big outweighs the need for it to be NEW-no R dna on it),dressed in the longjohns and covered w the blanket (both clean,right out of the dryer,IMO)..only they didn't know that some blood leaked out !
call 911 and let the show begin...

JMO8778,
This is an important question e.g. was JonBenet's genital injury staged then removed from view?

Or was she sexually assaulted then it was cleaned up and hidden from view?



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