Molested with the handle?

[JMO8778]

I agree. That's the only thing that explains John's failure to respond in a positive way to Burke during the 911 call and the only thing that explains why John didn't ask Burke questions about did he see JonBenet, did he hear anything, etc.

You know what. I think you all have convinced me that John knew what was going on as early as the 911 call.

I can clearly say that when someone is missing (my BPD relative runs off sometimes),that is NOT the way they would have behaved ! I know from personal experience they would have been turning that house upside down,throwing things right and left looking for clues,looking for any sign that JB might still be there,looking for any clues as to what might help determine where she was,and what,if anything,was missing,what was there that shouldn't be there ie- did the KN leave any clues behind?
Also questioning BR to the max..'what did you see,did you see anything unusual last night?! Did JB come into your room last night?! did you hear anything ,anything at all??!!! Did you hear her get up at anytime?! ... think,THINK!!!' They would have played 20 questions with him,*not just let him sleep ! what if someone had been still in the house,in his room??? BR would have been kept close,had either thought it was a real KN.
I also know it's very hard to sit down when you have all that adrenaline going,(I was running around the house faster and faster),so when Patsy goes and SITS in the sunroom,that's highly suspect to me ! If they'd called LE,it only would have been long enough to stop what they were doing,and then get right back to tearing that house apart,looking for clues.And IF they'd have called anyone over,it would have been to organize a search party,ie-you take that street,I'll search this one;they also would have been knocking on doors or having LE to do that,asking if anyone saw or heard anything that night,or phoning ppl;they knew the Barnhills across the st,why not call and ask if they saw anything suspect,anything unusual? Patsy named the housekeeper,why not give her a call,get it straight,then they could go on with their previous plans for the trip? she said she knew LHP wouldn't hurt her. And then JR didn't even walk around the house or yard to look for JB or check for anything unusual,their behavior was *not that of a missing child situation ! they both knew where she was by that time.
And the last thing is,it took them 7 HOURS to find her body ! Most parents would have found her in a hour or less,I believe .. they wouldn't have stopped looking !

 

[JMO8778]

You are not alone on that one....I waffle back and forth...back and forth...JB was molested...JB was NOT molested...JB WAS molested....by John....no, by her grandfather....no by John. Its driving me NUTS!!!

I wonder if JAR did,too,it could have been 2 or even all 3 of them;JB's room was said to have stains on the bed and carpet near her bed under UV light,although it was not disclosed as to what the stains were.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't think John really knew what all went on in his own home.

I don't either,I think Patsy took care of most of the parenting issues,and he didn't see what all happened everyday.

Also, I did not take Patsy's remarks about Nedra sleeping in JonBenet's bedroom while Patsy took chemo to mean a whole lot.

I didn't at first either,but then UK got me to thinking again,it seems Patsy was trying to deflect something before the fact,and why would she need to do that? Also her reaction when told JB had been molested was unusual,IMO.She didn't seem shocked.

 

[JMO8778]

Do you think that's consistent with a father who is glad to see that his son is okay?

I think JR was hovering over Patsy when she made the call,to help guide her if she needed assistance,and BR's timing in coming down the stairs is a huge interference to him,as far as planning what they need to do next before LE arrives; not wanting BR to hear anything said.so thinking that Patsy has ended the call, he snaps at BR and sends him back to bed,with orders *not to get up until he comes to get him!

 

[JMO8778]

Well, I don't know. I think that they just were panicking during the staging of her body, and simply overlooked the urine on the long johns...because it was dark. I do believe that either HER sheets were washed...or that she slept in Burkes room that night, and HIS sheets were washed. He had two beds in his room, I am not sure which bed she slept in, when she slept in his room. So, I believe that they DID try to eliminate the obvious things that would have led the police to think that JB died from toilet rage, they just overlooked a couple of things, in their haste. IMO

I think so,too.I think they were more concerned with the crime scene itself,and what evidence of their own might have been left,and so her room,in their haste,just got overlooked,seeing as her body wasn't going to be found there.

 

[BOESP]

I don't either,I think Patsy took care of most of the parenting issues,and he didn't see what all happened everyday.


I didn't at first either,but then UK got me to thinking again,it seems Patsy was trying to deflect something before the fact,and why would she need to do that? Also her reaction when told JB had been molested was unusual,IMO.She didn't seem shocked.

I saw the taped interview of that so maybe it came across differently on tape than on paper (I think on Youtube ... again, I can't remember ... but I think the interview videos have since been removed). I took it that Patsy equated molestation with sexual contact for gratification and that she truly had no idea it was happening to JonBenet. The interviewer never accused any one. She seemed like a Mama Cat ready to go claw out the eyes of whoever did this if what the interviewer said was true. At least that was my impression. Maybe she was just being a good actress but I don't think so.

If Patsy was doing corporal cleansing (whatever that means) I doubt she thought of that action as molestation.

I thought she was very surprised to hear about the molestation and came across as having already been warned that such a thing might be brought up. I think someone had already told Patsy that if the interrogators asked her something that she thought was a fishing trip to outright ask for more information and demand to see proof that any such question was based on legitimate information.

Anyone who would subject a child to a "pageant scrub" would probably want her to be clean inside and out (to put it bluntly). There are only so many ways to accomplish that. Frankly, I'm still flabbergasted that someone with the Patsy's level of education and sophistication would not have taken "that child" to a pediatric urologist. There isn't enough tea in China to convince me it is anywhere near normal for a precocious six-year-old girly-girl to be wetting the bed very often and certainly not while awake. That is a classic sign of sexual abuse.

I'm rambling .....

 

[BOESP]

I think JR was hovering over Patsy when she made the call,to help guide her if she needed assistance,and BR's timing in coming down the stairs is a huge interference to him,as far as planning what they need to do next before LE arrives; not wanting BR to hear anything said.so thinking that Patsy has ended the call, he snaps at BR and sends him back to bed,with orders *not to get up until he comes to get him!

Well, you've described it just like it played on the enhanced tape. I find the tape very incriminating.

 

[Solace]

That is a crucial part for determining John's involvement isn't it. Since John's reply "We're not talking to you" sounds harsh, it suggests to me that maybe he wasn't too worried about Burke after all. At first I thought John was just distracted and didn't want Burke bugging him while he tried to figure out what was going on and what to do next. However, if he only minutes earlier was worried about Burke being adducted so that he ran to check his room then why be so hateful to Burke when Burke comes downstairs? Why not say, "Son, JonBenet's gone. Was she in your room? Do you know where she is? Tell us if you heard anything."

Maybe John's tone of voice was not hateful but from what I heard on the on-line version of the tape, John sounded firm with a "bug off" tone of voice. Do you think that's consistent with a father who is glad to see that his son is okay?

You know what this is an excellent point. Okay, now I can see him being frantic, but I cannot see him yelling at Burke like that.

But then again, I could be wrong. He knows he is okay and just wants to take care of everything else. But if a parent has lost one child, I do not see them being dismissive to another one at the same time. But lots could argue that he was in a stressed environment and feeling crazy. I would be crazy too if my wife killed my daughter.

Now why does John go along? I don't think that he was molesting her. I really believe that Patsy was insane with grief and sorry and did not mean to kill her. I can see John saying to himself I have lost a child and it is nearly unbearable, this was an accident and Patsy did not mean it. I cannot let her go to jail and leave her son, etc. etc.

What does everyone think? I think it is purely protecting your family, since the deed is done, what good does it do to have her go to jail.

 

[BOESP]

You know what this is an excellent point. Okay, now I can see him being frantic, but I cannot see him yelling at Burke like that.

But then again, I could be wrong. He knows he is okay and just wants to take care of everything else. But if a parent has lost one child, I do not see them being dismissive to another one at the same time. But lots could argue that he was in a stressed environment and feeling crazy. I would be crazy too if my wife killed my daughter.

Now why does John go along? I don't think that he was molesting her. I really believe that Patsy was insane with grief and sorry and did not mean to kill her. I can see John saying to himself I have lost a child and it is nearly unbearable, this was an accident and Patsy did not mean it. I cannot let her go to jail and leave her son, etc. etc.

What does everyone think? I think it is purely protecting your family, since the deed is done, what good does it do to have her go to jail.

Solace, I totally agree with everything you said above. The evidence points to that conclusion and the rationale doesn't require convoluted thinking. It fits with everything the public knows that happened.

I've said this before; in my personal view on things, I don't think a prison sentence would have served any purpose in this case. Things probably worked out just as they should have. A dying woman who accidentally kills the most precious thing in her life had a lot of penance to do in ten years to my way of thinking.

 

[Ames]

I can clearly say that when someone is missing (my BPD relative runs off sometimes),that is NOT the way they would have behaved ! I know from personal experience they would have been turning that house upside down,throwing things right and left looking for clues,looking for any sign that JB might still be there,looking for any clues as to what might help determine where she was,and what,if anything,was missing,what was there that shouldn't be there ie- did the KN leave any clues behind?
Also questioning BR to the max..'what did you see,did you see anything unusual last night?! Did JB come into your room last night?! did you hear anything ,anything at all??!!! Did you hear her get up at anytime?! ... think,THINK!!!' They would have played 20 questions with him,*not just let him sleep ! what if someone had been still in the house,in his room??? BR would have been kept close,had either thought it was a real KN.
I also know it's very hard to sit down when you have all that adrenaline going,(I was running around the house faster and faster),so when Patsy goes and SITS in the sunroom,that's highly suspect to me ! If they'd called LE,it only would have been long enough to stop what they were doing,and then get right back to tearing that house apart,looking for clues.And IF they'd have called anyone over,it would have been to organize a search party,ie-you take that street,I'll search this one;they also would have been knocking on doors or having LE to do that,asking if anyone saw or heard anything that night,or phoning ppl;they knew the Barnhills across the st,why not call and ask if they saw anything suspect,anything unusual? Patsy named the housekeeper,why not give her a call,get it straight,then they could go on with their previous plans for the trip? she said she knew LHP wouldn't hurt her. And then JR didn't even walk around the house or yard to look for JB or check for anything unusual,their behavior was *not that of a missing child situation ! they both knew where she was by that time.
And the last thing is,it took them 7 HOURS to find her body ! Most parents would have found her in a hour or less,I believe .. they wouldn't have stopped looking !

Ain't (the southern in me coming out)....that the truth!!! When my then four year old went missing...I interrogated her older sister, in a screaming voice..."HAVE YOU SEEN AMBER!!!"...."SHE'S GONE!!"...."WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT YOU SAW HER!!!" And after that, we turned the house upside down and inside out...and then we all went outside and went our separate ways...going up and down the side walk screaming her name. I was scared to death, and there would have been NO WAY in H*ll, that I would have sat and took a breather, and walked down memory lane with my friends, while she was still missing. No stone would have been left unturned! And even if I had of found a RN...I still would have done the same thing...I would have searched that house, high and low...after interrogating a sibling...and then I would have went outside and searched. (I HAVE to add that in John's own words...his 98 interview...he states that he DID go outside...for a whole 30 SECONDS!!!...those are HIS words....30 SECONDS! Man, he really searched high and low for her out there, didn't he?). For one thing, I would have been way too antsy and upset, to just sit and walk down memory lane with my friends...looking at photo albums...etc, another thing...I would have wanted to do everything that I could do to look for her, even if it was a supposed kidnapping. Maybe the kidnapper wrote the note and chickened out...she could STILL be in this house somewhere, I have to at LEAST go and look for her.

 

[Ames]

I don't either,I think Patsy took care of most of the parenting issues,and he didn't see what all happened everyday.


I didn't at first either,but then UK got me to thinking again,it seems Patsy was trying to deflect something before the fact,and why would she need to do that? Also her reaction when told JB had been molested was unusual,IMO.She didn't seem shocked.

Those two things are what have me almost totally convinced that JB WAS molested. No, she didn't seem shocked AT ALL. She just answered with a simple..."NO"...to all of the questions. When told of the molestation she didn't scream..."WHAT? Who could have done this? ARE YOU SURE?"

From Patsy's 98 Interview...

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
0581
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
5 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.


Yep, she seems "REAL SHOCKED" to me, doesn't she to you???

 

[daffodil]

If Patsy was douching Jon Benet maybe she thought the vaginal intrusion was referring to that as he does not say "sexual violation".Perhaps that accounts for her lack of shock?

 

[Ames]

If Patsy was douching Jon Benet maybe she thought the vaginal intrusion was referring to that as he does not say "sexual violation".Perhaps that accounts for her lack of shock?

Yep, good point! A vaginal INTRUSION could have been anything, that was inserted into the vagina....including a douch. And he doesn't say "molested" either. HMMM...great catch.

 

[UKGuy]

Yep, good point! A vaginal INTRUSION could have been anything, that was inserted into the vagina....including a douch. And he doesn't say "molested" either. HMMM...great catch.

Ames,
In this case there are elements that you can discover, such as the above, and they will appear to confirm whatever theory you currently support?

If you take the same elements say the above reference prior vaginal intrusion which Tom Haney is telling Patsy occurred before, but note Patsy's question which has the staging in mind, 4 Prior to the night she was killed?

Now consider Coroner Meyers remarks regarding JonBenet being Digitally penetrated, and compare with the above.

Both represent vaginal intrusion!

So I would assume from Patsy's calm question that she knew about the prior vaginal intrusion, later on she defended John in public from allegations of molesting JonBenet by stating it could never have happened since Nedra was there, once again she lets us know she has something to hide.

I reckon she knew JonBenet was being molested and imo the phrase vaginal intrusion is particularly damning since they are saying something was inserted inside JonBenet, and no amount of staging could hide that, even the missing piece of paintbrush! So its possible the BPD have more extensive medical analysis of JonBenet's internal state than has been released so far.

And he doesn't say "molested" either. HMMM...great catch.

Note Coroner Meyer never put his digital penetration into the autopsy report! So not saying molested is consistent with saying vaginal intrusion since it patently states something was inserted inside JonBenet.

 

[DeeDee249]

that's great Dee Dee ! Only think I would think to change is that the housekeeper was due to come the next day (remember Patsy was supposed to leave a check out for her..which she didn't..another reason I think she never made it to bed that night),so she could have just put the sheets in the dirty laundry for the housekeeper to do the next day,if she'd wanted to.
Sometimes I wonder if there was more to it than just bedwetting/soiling issues that set her off.
Patsy was described as being such a sloppy housekeeper,that it makes me wonder why she would even bother to have the sheets and all in the wash the next morning,by the time the housekeeper arrived.was she possibly trying to hide something by doing that? perhaps JB had frequent bleeding or oozing injuries from corporal cleaning?

I am sure it was a combination- a "Perfect Storm" of stress that night- not just the soiling. While PR apparently had to deal with JBR's bedwetting and incontinence ON A DAILY BASIS for the past few years, what would make her raging enough to kill her child that day? Yes, it wears VERY thing changing sheets every day- (though she had a housekeeper who actually did the work. And it must have been extremely frustrtating for someone as concerned with "keeping up appearences" as PR that her Beauty Queen daughter, so perfect on the outside, always had feces and urine in her underwear.
So- the stress of Christmas that every mother has, dealing with an uncooperative JBR, too much wine at the White's, having to finish packing for an unwanted trip, the stress of meeting Melinda's fiance (imagine wanting to make a good impression, having them stay with them at the Charlevoix house, and having your 6-year old beauty queen smelling like feces all day). Add that to yet another midnight bedsoiling when you have to get up at 5am- a perfect storm. She just lost it.

 

[Ames]

I am sure it was a combination- a "Perfect Storm" of stress that night- not just the soiling. While PR apparently had to deal with JBR's bedwetting and incontinence ON A DAILY BASIS for the past few years, what would make her raging enough to kill her child that day? Yes, it wears VERY thing changing sheets every day- (though she had a housekeeper who actually did the work. And it must have been extremely frustrtating for someone as concerned with "keeping up appearences" as PR that her Beauty Queen daughter, so perfect on the outside, always had feces and urine in her underwear.
So- the stress of Christmas that every mother has, dealing with an uncooperative JBR, too much wine at the White's, having to finish packing for an unwanted trip, the stress of meeting Melinda's fiance (imagine wanting to make a good impression, having them stay with them at the Charlevoix house, and having your 6-year old beauty queen smelling like feces all day). Add that to yet another midnight bedsoiling when you have to get up at 5am- a perfect storm. She just lost it.

I totally agree....it was a combination of things...the bedwetting was just the last straw.

 

[JMO8778]

I am sure it was a combination- a "Perfect Storm" of stress that night- not just the soiling. While PR apparently had to deal with JBR's bedwetting and incontinence ON A DAILY BASIS for the past few years, what would make her raging enough to kill her child that day? Yes, it wears VERY thing changing sheets every day- (though she had a housekeeper who actually did the work. And it must have been extremely frustrtating for someone as concerned with "keeping up appearences" as PR that her Beauty Queen daughter, so perfect on the outside, always had feces and urine in her underwear.
So- the stress of Christmas that every mother has, dealing with an uncooperative JBR, too much wine at the White's, having to finish packing for an unwanted trip, the stress of meeting Melinda's fiance (imagine wanting to make a good impression, having them stay with them at the Charlevoix house, and having your 6-year old beauty queen smelling like feces all day). Add that to yet another midnight bedsoiling when you have to get up at 5am- a perfect storm. She just lost it.

I'd thought about that..it would have been stressful to keep up appearances with a Dr in the house (or one in training).She would have to be on top of JB's personal hygiene all day long,and somehow wash the sheets every day,without being noticed,else someone suggest she needs to see a specialist. (remember,Melinda had some med training,too).
And the fact her fiance called ST tells me that she was right on the money about fear of how he would have handled it...he's the type who would have made sure,even if it meant calling authorities,that JB got the help she needed.(yes,I know she'd never met him then).

 

[Nuisanceposter]

So why Dr Beuf just blow it off as nothing, and claim it was normal for girls that age to deal with wetness and soiling issues - when it clearly isn't (at least not the degree that JonBenet was experiencing)?

 

[DeeDee249]

Because Dr.Boef was a staunch friend of the Rs. He moved in the same exclusive social circles. He was going to spin this anyway they wanted him too. JBR was brought in so many times for the same vaginal irritation that if I were him I'd question the mother's intelligence. He may have suspected something else, and because of his social connection to the family, simply looked the other way. Or he may not have made a connectiion with any kind of abuse. I am a bit suspicious of the whole pediatrician thing with this case. After the murder, he did a bit more than give PR something to calm her down- he kept her STONED. It was easier to avoid questioning that way. Why wasn't her own doctor called? There is something in my mind that is very uncomfortable with his actions in this case.

 

[Ames]

Because Dr.Boef was a staunch friend of the Rs. He moved in the same exclusive social circles. He was going to spin this anyway they wanted him too. JBR was brought in so many times for the same vaginal irritation that if I were him I'd question the mother's intelligence. He may have suspected something else, and because of his social connection to the family, simply looked the other way. Or he may not have made a connectiion with any kind of abuse. I am a bit suspicious of the whole pediatrician thing with this case. After the murder, he did a bit more than give PR something to calm her down- he kept her STONED. It was easier to avoid questioning that way. Why wasn't her own doctor called? There is something in my mind that is very uncomfortable with his actions in this case.

Right on...I agree!!