Mr. Clean v. The State and The Tabloids

[Toth]

I've never thought dialing 911 was tantamount to an admission of guilt.

 

[Toth]

and because I am that kind of gal ...

Well, I'm happy to learn that you are 'that kind of gal' but I think you are 'Geographically Inconvenient'.
Now as to the statement with which you take issue: there is nothing at all silly about it whatsoever.
It is perfectly reasonable to insist the questioning take place in a lawyer's conference room, particularly considering Patsy Ramsey's emotional state during much of that time period.

 

[Toth]

Why not just answer the questions truthfully and be a stepping stone instead of a stumbling block?

The Ramseys were prepared to answer questions and would certainly be answering them truthfully; I have no idea why the BPD wanted to be a stumbling block.

 

[tipper]

There were people who protested that the evidence against Westerfield was circumstantial. No trace evidence of him in the home. No previous "history or pathology" that was known about.

There were unknown fingerprints in the house too. Not all of the fibre evidence was identified come to that. If the police hadn't had the guts to proceed with their case against David Westerfield and browbeat him into offering a plea bargain which told them they had their man..... OR .... if he had lawyered up to the hilt and refused to be interviewed unless he could dictate the conditions, then the SAnDiego police might STILL have been hunting the person whose upside down and back to front fingerprints were found on the van Dam stair bannister.

Sorry. I wasn't clear on my point. What I meant was the van Dams still had hope their daughter would be found alive which would be a powerful incentive to keep yourself pulled together so you can help find her. Also (whatever early suspicians LE may have had about the van Dams) the police didn't treat the remaining children badly. From all I've read the police kept their early suspicians on a pretty matter-of-fact basis so the van Dams weren't freaked (as my kids would say) by the idea that they were initial suspects. The Ramseys, on the other hand, had Melinda and JAR get 'leaned on pretty hard' as one of BPD described it AND they had Mike Bynum telling them they were suspects and needed lawyers.

I don't particularly agree with the decisions they made but I can see how they got there.

OT but as far as Westerfield goes I thought he was probably guilty when I heard about the blood on his collar and the fingerprints in the RV clinched it for me.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Toth: I think the parents torment is very lengthy: seven years so far. And as for the penetration, I've reason to believe that the paint brush handle was far more suitable. It doesn't leave forensic evidence and after considering certain anatomical situations often addressed in spam these days, the paintbrush was more suitable anyway.

Ned: Torment? You think the parents have been tormented? Please, torment, is when parents are out campaigning to find justice for thier daughter, not living in million dollar mansions and taking trips to France.

Torment is when parents plead and BEG for the public's help in finding the monster that did this to their child, not hiding behind lawyers and retreating to Michigan. There is NO parent torment in this case Toth, none at all.

And suitable? You think this pedophile picked up several different paint brushes to make sure he used a "suitable" one on his victim? How many pedophiles whould rather penetrate thier victims with objects rather then with themselves? A pedophile is someone who generally "loves their victim" so this intruder you speak of doesn't even fit that discription, otherwise he wouldn't have brutally bashed her head in. And he certainly wasn't a kidnapper, because he never kidnapped the child. So just WHO is this intruder? A pedophile, kidnapper, or complete psycho? And you discribe the "fun" this intruder got from this crime. What fun was it Toth to tie her wrists with loose rope? Tell me what fun purpose that served him? What fun did the tape serve to be placed on her mouth AFTER she was dead?

What fun has this intruder has since the crime? Any phone calls to mock the parents? NO any other similar crimes to egg on authorities? No Just what purpose did this crime serve the intruder? NONE. ALL crimes serve a purpose. All of them. When someone burglarizes a home, they do it for money. 99% of the time, because they need to get their next high. Every crime has a purpose. Please explain to me what the PURPOSE of this crime was?

Now add in the facts as we know them and you will see the purpose of this crime fits exactly as how it was laid out to be. A murder covered up by 2 parents to make it look like something else. And TLynn is right, it all comes down to the pineapple, and Patsy's biggest mistake in claiming she had no idea where it came from. Not even acknowledging that she had bought pineapple. This alone, convicts the parents IMO. It blows their intruder theory right out the window.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Shylock: If there were ever 2 parents that needed lawyers in a child murder case it was the van Dams. Here were two parents admittingly partying the night of their daughters abduction, smoking an illegal substance, and STILL their love and reponsibility was too their child, and they chose NOT to protect themselves, in what could have been a very sticky situation for them.

The Ramsey's on the other hand, according to Toth the opitimy of a clean cut Ozzy and Harriet image, why in the heck would they go forward and hire lawyers, not only seperately for each other but for the whole damn family as well? It's called protection. Protection from the crime they committed. There never was and never will be any responsibility on behalf of the Ramsey's to catch the killer of "that" child. Their only responsibilities has been to "protect" themseleves and keep each other out of prison.

 

[Jayelles]

"To a point", I can accept that the parents were quickly devastated by the discovery of their daughter's body and that any hope they may have harboured was dashed. But I do not accept that they would have felt outrage at what some monster did to their daughter and want to help in any way they could to nail the perp and have him executed for his crime.

Besides, there is no escaping the fact that whilst they were too devastated to be interviewed by police, they were not too devastated to be interviewed on CNN.

 

[Toth]

>torment, is when parents are out campaigning to find justice for thier
>daughter, not living in million dollar mansions and taking trips to France.
The Ramseys have persistently campaigned to have this case solved, have never lived in a million dollar mansion. I do not know of any trips to France, but fail to see how that would indicate either guilt or lack of torment.
>not hiding behind lawyers and retreating to Michigan.
They have never hid behind lawyers or retreated to Michigan.

>What fun did the tape serve to be placed on her mouth
>AFTER she was dead?
The fun of having a would-be rescuer believe she was still alive only to have his hopes dashed yet again as he finally realized the truth.

>Just what purpose did this crime serve the intruder?
He got even and he had fun doing it.

>It blows their intruder theory right out the window.
What does it do the dna?

 

[why_nutt]

It is perfectly reasonable to insist the questioning take place in a lawyer's conference room, particularly considering Patsy Ramsey's emotional state during much of that time period.

There is nothing "perfectly reasonable" about the insistence on using a lawyer's conference room. What that was was a naked attempt at establishing power in the relationship through dictating the time, venue and manner in which questioning would take place, much as Patsy Ramsey insisted on dictating the actions of the defense attorney in the case for which she was just a juror. For gods' sake, the lawyer's offices and the Boulder police station were only three blocks apart from each other. And if you look at a map, you would see that the Ramseys would actually have had to drive past the Boulder police station to get to the lawyer offices, as the lawyers were the ones who were three blocks further away from the Ramsey house. What insanity would have Patsy feeling more comfortable in the office rather than the police station, given that at that point she had never been to either environment and had no idea which one would make her feel more comfortable physically and emotionally?

 

[Toth]

. What that was was a naked attempt at establishing power in the relationship through dictating the time, venue and manner in which questioning would take place

Thats exactly what the BPD was doing.

Note: who is ever 'comfortable' in a police station?

 

[Imon128]

Thats exactly what the BPD was doing.

Note: who is ever 'comfortable' in a police station?

But...the BPD DID rightfully have the power of their investigation.

IMO, the 'comfort' of the R's should have been something they took up with their minister, family, shrink, etc., not the BPD or their (the R's) lawyers.

 

[why_nutt]

Thats exactly what the BPD was doing.

Note: who is ever 'comfortable' in a police station?

Today's news for you is that the police already have power. They have no need to grab it. They are allowed to set venue, conditions and time because they are answerable to the public for how they treat members of the public, and the conditions they set protect both themselves and the interviewees from claims of abuse of power. You will note that it is only when police violate the ordinary conditions they impose on themselves and create special conditions for a particular interviewee that abuse can and does take place. When Abner Louima was beaten and raped, it was not in a stationhouse conference room with a video camera watching.

 

[Shylock]

In the van Dam case you had a missing child and by the time her body was found they had Westerfield as a suspect. So it's difficult to compare the two cases.

Not at all, Tipper, your facts are a little goofy. Just like the Ramseys, the Van Damms were the original suspects. The difference is the VD's were innocent and cooperated with the police. They didn't hide behind lawyers because they had nothing to hide--they weren't responsible for their daughter's disappearance.

As you say, they may have had Westerfield when her body was found, but that was WEEKS after she was found missing. If the parents had pulled a Ramsey, they would have been the prime suspects during those weeks and probably after.

 

[Shylock]

Shylock: If there were ever 2 parents that needed lawyers in a child murder case it was the van Dams. Here were two parents admittingly partying the night of their daughters abduction, smoking an illegal substance, and STILL their love and reponsibility was too their child, and they chose NOT to protect themselves, in what could have been a very sticky situation for them.

Actually Ned, it was Brenda who was out partying, while the husband stayed home and watched the kids. I'm sure you remember that.
I don't think the Van Damms really needed a lawyer because they admitted to smoking a little pot now and then. Nor do I think their sex lives had anything to do with the issue. Neither had anything to do with the abduction and murder, so they had nothing to hide that they would require a lawyer for.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Actually Ned, it was Brenda who was out partying, while the husband stayed home and watched the kids.

Ned: Not to re-hash but he admitted to smoking early with the girls, I call that partying.

Toth: He got even and he had fun doing it.

Ned: Even for what? Now tell me if someone came in and murdered my kid to get even for something I did, I certainly would have a pretty good idea of who I f---ed over for something that horrible to have happened. How many enemies does John Ramsey have?

 

[Blazeboy3]

Today's news for you is that the police already have power. They have no need to grab it. They are allowed to set venue, conditions and time because they are answerable to the public for how they treat members of the public, and the conditions they set protect both themselves and the interviewees from claims of abuse of power. You will note that it is only when police violate the ordinary conditions they impose on themselves and create special conditions for a particular interviewee that abuse can and does take place. When Abner Louima was beaten and raped, it was not in a stationhouse conference room with a video camera watching.

why_nutt:THANK YOU FOR REMINDER/KNOWLEDGE of ABNER LOUIMA...!!!
http://www.profaneexistence.com/NYCPigorgy.html

 

[Toth]

Would you immediately think of the enemy you gained by allowing your kid to step on a sidewalk crack and go unpunished?

 

[Nehemiah]

Would you immediately think of the enemy you gained by allowing your kid to step on a sidewalk crack and go unpunished?

Say,what? Break that sentence down, Toth...

 

[why_nutt]

Would you immediately think of the enemy you gained by allowing your kid to step on a sidewalk crack and go unpunished?

The sort of person who would be offended to the point of murder by crack-stepping is also someone who does not target that sense of offense to only one person. Where is the vigilante-like series of murders of people in Boulder, among whom the only link is that they stepped on cracks? Where are references to cracks in the note? Why was JonBenet not killed with a broken back?

 

[Maxi]

I think Toth is suggesting that the perp could be a serious paranoid with a grudge against one of the Ramseys for some imagined slight. I've read about people like that, and they don't always fix immediately on a new enemy. But I don't think they are usually satisfied with the vengence they've gained until their enemy is dead. John and Patsy are very much alive.