Mr. Clean v. The State and The Tabloids

[Imon128]

Barbara..Is it true or fallacy that the door was latched from the outside? Wasn't there also a chair placed in front of the door?

If true, why would an intruder do that?

Why would an intruder? Fleet said he looked into that room when he took his own little excursion into the basement,it was dark ,he saw nothing. Why did he latch the door?

Did Fleet relatch the door? If so, did John have to unlatch it to get in on his own little excursion?

If Fleet relatched it, it probably would have been to put it back the way John and Patsy kept it. That might be due to the door NEEDING to have that latch in order for the door to stay shut. It was John who seemingly appeared to discourage the BPD from going in there when he said that the room had no window. I only wish French would have followed through with his attempt to enter the room, and I bet he does too.

 

[Toth]

It was John who seemingly appeared to discourage the BPD from going in there when he said that the room had no window.

Neither John nor Patsy Ramsey ever did anything to limit or discourage the police search of the house in any way. John Ramsey made no attempt to discourage anyone from searching and answered all questions that the police put to him.

 

[sissi]

http://classes.colgate.edu/rbowman/core145/jonbenet_newsweek.html

A little refresher!

 

[TLynn]

The cellar door was initially locked which is why the first officer on the scene (French) did not open it.

"Pineapple in the digestive system was something that arose as an issue later and has never been a major piece of evidence, since 'transit time' is so variable, particularly in pediatric cases."

Nope. You're trying to discount a MAJOR PIECE OF HARD EVIDENCE. It is the victim speaking and you are ignoring her. Nitpick the "transit time" - but Patsy said she didn't buy it, didn't cut it, didn't feed it to JonBenet - knows nothing about the pineapple.

YET, it is there - in JonBenet's digestive system AFTER the dinner at FW's. JonBenet ate it after arriving home and before she was murdered.

NO INTRUDER brought their own pineapple, served it in the Ramsey's bowl and fed it to JonBenet before killing her.

That is something the Ramseys didn't think about. No one talks about the pineapple.

BTW, Barbara's right about the Ramseys not originally being suspects, allowed to go their own way, etc. And that the initial red flag was the RN. But as tests results came in - they were all pointing at the Ramseys.

 

[Barbara]

As to not displaying the corpse, the whole idea of that "Ransom Note" was to give the intruder some real entertainment by having the parents endure hours of agony waiting for the phone to ring and being tortured everytime it was some darn telemarketer instead of the kidnappers. All that very great fun of his would have been spoiled if he had left the kid's corpse in plain sight.

I think the main problem is the police view it as a Ransom Note instead of as a "Ransom Note". That is, they can't see it as a tool to increase pleasure, much as the way the paintbrush handle was a tool to make the ligature more effective.

Truthfully Toth, I can't see it as a tool to increase pleasure either. If this was done for pleasure, the body would have been removed from the house, the call would have come, they would have John running around with an attache to kidnappers, Patsy home chewing her nails and pulling out her hair waiting for John to return with JBR, and so on and THEN send him to a location where the body would be found displayed. Now that would be a scenario more likely with they type of intruder you are trying to paint us. Nonsense! (with all due respect, of course )

 

[Toth]

You think perhaps the intruder is dumb? He is going to carry a corpse out to a car or drag it through the alley? Then after the fbi has been called and installed telephone traps and has alot of payphones monitored he is going to start making phone calls?
Alot of added risk for very little added fun!

 

[Shylock]

You think perhaps the intruder is dumb?

Well I don't know, Toth. Just how smart do you think it is to leave a ransom note for a person whose dead body is left in the house?...DUH!
(Nobody is THAT stupid...)

 

[Imon128]

A dead child and no note...ooookay.

A note and no dead child...ooookay.

But a dead child in their basement AND a kidnapping note? Nah.

Even a bungling intruder would have had the sense to take the body whether he/she wanted money or to give John and/or Patsy some prolonged agony.

Rice not already cooked, rice burned.

 

[Nehemiah]

Correct. No one talks about the pineapple. It's like that never even happened. That part was noticeably left out of Lou Smit's documentary.

 

[Imon128]

Lou seems to defer discussing the vaginal injuries, too. However, he does talk about a 'pedophile's dream'. I am anxious to hear Lou tell us what pedophiles dream about, then. (and how he knows)

 

[Toth]

Quite frankly I don't follow your reasoning at all and think it much more likely that the body would be hidden than taken away.

 

[Imon128]

Can you elaborate why you think it being hidden would be better, causing a possible discovery, than to be removed? Removal would either help ensure the monies or the agony some have described, that the R's would have felt.

 

[Toth]

Dragging a dead or alive six year old girl around in the wee hours of the morning can bring you to the attention of the BPD who just might think it worthy of putting down their donuts and asking some questions. Money was never an object in this crime. So whats to be gained by taking her out of the house. The goal was to kill her and to have some fun doing it. So thats just what he did.

 

[Imon128]

Dragging a dead or alive six year old girl around in the wee hours of the morning can bring you to the attention of the BPD who just might think it worthy of putting down their donuts and asking some questions. Money was never an object in this crime. So whats to be gained by taking her out of the house. The goal was to kill her and to have some fun doing it. So thats just what he did.

Aaah, but that would pale in comparison to having a household member catch you redhanded. Afterall, an outsider wanted SOMETHING from this death, right? Pleasure for an outsider, IMO, would require the body to be removed. If it was planned, and I think the intruder theorists think it was, why not have a plan to take JB with, as the intruder had to leave anyhow. Just as well take the body, too, eh? Alive OR dead.

 

[Britt]

Money was never an object in this crime. So whats to be gained by taking her out of the house.

What's to be gained by leaving a three-page handwriting sample? If he wasn't dumb enough to risk taking the body or calling on tapped phones, why offer up a rich piece of physical evidence, not to mention all the potential evidence left on and with the body?

 

[Imon128]

What's to be gained by leaving a three-page handwriting sample? If he wasn't dumb enough to risk taking the body or calling on tapped phones, why offer up a rich piece of physical evidence, not to mention all the potential evidence left on and with the body?

Britt....excellent point! If an intruder just wanted to kill JB or have funsies, why the note? What a paper trail! Insider trading at its best...oops, worst.

 

[Ivy]

Toth, if the intruder had so much fun killing JonBenet and making her parents suffer emotionally, why hasn't he repeated the crime? Why is this the only case on record in which an intruder supposedly sneaked into a house when the parents were there, taken a child from her bed, fed her pineapple, and then gently molested her, fractured her skull, strangled her, and left her body in the house, along with a ransom letter? Was the intruder, vicious as he was, strictly a one-victim kind of guy?

 

[TLynn]

Pontificate all you want on justifications for the note and body -

And when you're through - address the pineapple. You can't go anywhere in this case until that issue is resolved.

The pineapple puts it in that home and keeps it in that home.

IF the Ramseys had stated JonBenet was awake, ate pineapple, went to bed - the intruder theory may warrant some discussion. But that's NOT the case. The Ramseys know nothing about it.

That puts an "intruder" with JonBenet and the pineapple. THAT DIDN"T HAPPEN!

An "intruder" did not bring pineapple, cut it up, put it in a bowl, get a spoon to feed JonBenet and then kill her an hour later.

That didn't happen.

It all comes down to the pineapple!

 

[Britt]

It all comes down to the pineapple!

You're absolutely right, TLynn. The pineapple proves that either the Ramseys lied (JB was not asleep and why would they lie if they were innocent?) OR Burke did it and the parents didn't know he fed JB pineapple. Either way, NO INTRUDER.

 

[Toth]

No, he was a two-victim sort of guy! But having bagged his two victims, he is content...for the nonce.