Mr. Clean v. The State and The Tabloids

[Toth]

Aaah, but that would pale in comparison to having a household member catch you redhanded. . . .
Just as well take the body, too, eh? Alive OR dead.

There was very little danger of being caught redhanded.
Taking the body with him increases danger and most of all, it decreases the fun. His greatest joy was that the parents rather than the police found the corpse. That was the purpose of that tiny, ineffectual piece of duct tape. It raised hopes that she was still alive ... and then dashed those hopes. Great fun.

 

[Toth]

Oh but it was just such exquisite fun to leave that note!
And, as you can see, its "evidence value" hasn't been much at all. No risk to him at all.

 

[Barbara]

You think perhaps the intruder is dumb? He is going to carry a corpse out to a car or drag it through the alley? Then after the fbi has been called and installed telephone traps and has alot of payphones monitored he is going to start making phone calls?
Alot of added risk for very little added fun!

Toth,

ADDED risk? Going by your scenario, the "intruder" skulked and laid in wait around the house for hours while the family was gone (a great risk). He then took a greater risk by assuming that everyone was fast asleep and sound sleepers at that. (I have written this type of post so many times, I should have a standard post for this, lol). The "intruder" just KNEW that the parents wouldn't stay up late sharing their own private Christmas with one another, having a drink, or just being alone. The "intruder" knew that the parents wouldn't stay up watching TV, the "intruder" knew that the parents wouldn't be awake being "intimate". The "intruder" knew that Burke and/or JonBenet wouldn't be awake playing with their new gifts or just awake despite being put to bed (very common and those with children know this very well).

Writing a three page ransom note is pretty risky. Writing any ransom note when you aren't looking for a ransom is pretty risky. You also seem to feel that the intruder carried things in the house and carried things out of the house. Why not a small child to add to the thrill? Why not just leave the body outside hidden? It didn't have to be carried far away, just hidden outside. If you really want a thrill while avoiding phone use, write a FOUR page ransom note with delivery instructions with various stops along the way, really make them work and sweat!

For the parents to suffer the body of JBR would have been naked, no cover, the sexual abuse would be more significant, more brutal, well you know... (I hate even writing this stuff).

Where is the thrill if the intruder cannot witness it? Where is the thrill if the intruder cannot hear or know about it? Let's not forget that at the time of this crime, the intruder also had no way of knowing what a national and international sensation this case would turn out to be, so therefore, he had no way of knowing what the parents would be going through.

There was very little danger of being caught redhanded

On what basis do you make that statement?

Now I am far from being an expert, but I do have a serious psychology background and for the life of me, I cannot determine the thrill of what this "intruder" did, compared to the scenarios I have brought here. Truthfully, I don't see the thrill of caring so much for the victim, when one wants the parents to suffer. As strange as it sounds, the parents would have to be comforted that there was no penile penetration, no cuts, etc.

The stun gun? (nah, not going there ) But by your scenario, if a stun gun was used, EVEN MORE RISK!

And...what about the pineapple? If the intruder fed it to her, that's a really great risk, taking bowls, spoons out, etc. You always leave out the pineapple.

Toth, your reasoning does not work. It just doesn't make sense.

Your scenario only makes sense if one parent was angry at the other.

 

[Imon128]

This would have been a very high risk crime for an intruder. If having the thrill of 'risk' was his motive, surely dashing through an alley with a corpse under his arm would have only heightened that thrill for him.

Getting caught in the parents home while doing his dastardly deed was high risk, IMO. He could have just snatched the child and ran, then got his thrills. Instead he acted IN the home, and further nailed himself by leaving a handwritten note...for nothing.

 

[BlueCrab]

I agree the pineapple is hard evidence there was no uninvited intruder in the house. JonBenet ate the pineapple about 1 to 2 hours before she died. It was in the upper part of her small intestine. Her dinner at the White's house, eaten at least 5 hours before she died, was in the large intestine.

JonBenet would not have willingly come downstairs with an intruder to snack on pineapple. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple left out all night on the table. Therefore, the pineapple evidence points to Burke and, all by itself, eliminates the possibility of an intruder.

Just my opinion.

BlueCrab

 

[Shylock]

I agree the pineapple is hard evidence there was no uninvited intruder in the house.
JonBenet would not have willingly come downstairs with an intruder to snack on pineapple.

I agree with you on the pineapple, BlueCrab. The pineapple also kills off the intruder stun gun theory. Just when would an intruder have used a stun gun on JonBenet--before or after he fed her pineapple? Neither scenerio makes any sense.

 

[why_nutt]

Oh but it was just such exquisite fun to leave that note!
And, as you can see, its "evidence value" hasn't been much at all. No risk to him at all.

There was no "fun" to be found in the note. As of six o'clock on the morning of December 26th, the note writer informed John that JonBenet was kidnapped only for monetary gain, it was nothing personal as there were many other "fat cats" to feast off of and John was simply on the list, and gave John hope of rescuing his daughter beginning no later than ten o'clock in the morning. Then the writer gave John even more hope by offering up JonBenet earlier than that if he complied with the note's terms before ten a.m.

The note writer demonstrated stupidity, by not only telling John that he was guaranteed to get his daughter back if the note's terms were followed, but by also telling John he could be an idiot and defy all the note's conditions and still get JonBenet back, albeit there was a 1% chance of doing so.

What fun was it for the note writer to admit to being so stupid he might let John have his daughter back even if John did nothing? What kind of fun was to be had in telling John the whole thing was nothing personal against him or his source of income? What fun was present when the note writer was so kind as to refrain from leaving the note on the stairs along with the finger on which JonBenet wore her ring, to prove both serious intent and how important it was for John to comply?

 

[Toth]

Risk: Any burglar knows that if the cops don't show up in the first ten minutes they ain't gonna show up at all.
When he entered the home and it soon became obvious there had not been any nosy busybody who called the cops, he knew he had no risk. Though he still acted sensibly. Left the note in the pad so if he was discovered, the note wouldn't even be found and he would be just a simple burglar. Hid upstairs so he would not have to climb stairs and perhaps make noise doing so but would already be near his quarry. Listened and when he felt confident in the stillness of the night, he went in and bundled her up or scooped her up and carried her to the basement. Once there, screaming was of no risk to him either. So the fun began and probably lasted quite a bit, then he finished her off, left the note and returned to the basement for a known, safe exit. He was very proud of his night's achievements. It was more than satisfying, it was fulfilling.

 

[Imon128]

Risk: Any burglar knows that if the cops don't show up in the first ten minutes they ain't gonna show up at all.
When he entered the home and it soon became obvious there had not been any nosy busybody who called the cops, he knew he had no risk. Though he still acted sensibly. Left the note in the pad so if he was discovered, the note wouldn't even be found and he would be just a simple burglar. Hid upstairs so he would not have to climb stairs and perhaps make noise doing so but would already be near his quarry. Listened and when he felt confident in the stillness of the night, he went in and bundled her up or scooped her up and carried her to the basement. Once there, screaming was of no risk to him either. So the fun began and probably lasted quite a bit, then he finished her off, left the note and returned to the basement for a known, safe exit. He was very proud of his night's achievements. It was more than satisfying, it was fulfilling.

Before the intruder entered the home, per some, there was no involvement of BPD.

Of course, there's high risk to enter the victim's home and molest and kill her. Good grief.

 

[Barbara]

Risk: Any burglar knows that if the cops don't show up in the first ten minutes they ain't gonna show up at all.
When he entered the home and it soon became obvious there had not been any nosy busybody who called the cops, he knew he had no risk. Though he still acted sensibly. Left the note in the pad so if he was discovered, the note wouldn't even be found and he would be just a simple burglar. Hid upstairs so he would not have to climb stairs and perhaps make noise doing so but would already be near his quarry. Listened and when he felt confident in the stillness of the night, he went in and bundled her up or scooped her up and carried her to the basement. Once there, screaming was of no risk to him either. So the fun began and probably lasted quite a bit, then he finished her off, left the note and returned to the basement for a known, safe exit. He was very proud of his night's achievements. It was more than satisfying, it was fulfilling.

Hardly fulfilling for the type of intruder you describe. You still left out the pineapple. See my above post again. You omitted some very important risks such as the parents possibly being awake and having intimacy? The kids being quiet and yet awake so as not to let the parents hear them?

Your theory about all this fun and pleasure makes no sense. There is no fun or thrill in the scenario you describe. Too much risk, for so little reward. No penile penetration, no real long torment for the parents,....... the list goes on.

But if it makes the intruder theory work for you...........

 

[Toth]

Of course, there's high risk to enter the victim's home and molest and kill her. Good grief.

Nope. If he saw them all leave and then enters, his "risk" is in the first ten minutes. If no cops by then, he is home free. Once he hides under the bed in the JAR/Guestroom and waits for house to be still, he need only be quiet and keep her quiet until he has that basement door closed behind him. After that, there was no risk. He could use the stun gun in the basement, tell her 'Your Daddy is not going to rescue you" and "There is no Heaven" and the like, do things to her, gleefully hear her sobs and he knew that no one would hear anything. Then the garotte with one foot on her holding her down he pulls the paintbrush handle slowly,,, then he makes sure with a really good blow to the head. He even hits her on the side where his siezures take place! And then he calmly hides the body, leaves the note and disappears into the night.

 

[Imon128]

Come on, now. To enter the victim's home in a nice area, with family there, to perpetrate a crime, is high risk. You can't slice it or dice it otherwise, IMO.

 

[Barbara]

Nope. If he saw them all leave and then enters, his "risk" is in the first ten minutes. If no cops by then, he is home free. Once he hides under the bed in the JAR/Guestroom and waits for house to be still, he need only be quiet and keep her quiet until he has that basement door closed behind him. After that, there was no risk. He could use the stun gun in the basement, tell her 'Your Daddy is not going to rescue you" and "There is no Heaven" and the like, do things to her, gleefully hear her sobs and he knew that no one would hear anything. Then the garotte with one foot on her holding her down he pulls the paintbrush handle slowly,,, then he makes sure with a really good blow to the head. He even hits her on the side where his siezures take place! And then he calmly hides the body, leaves the note and disappears into the night.

So you don't think it's risky to hide under the bed in the JAR/Guestroom. Must also be a psychic to know nobody might walk in there and discover him. Why would he torment JBR with all those things he told her to punish the parents and make them suffer? How would the parents know?

You don't think it's risky to "hear her sobs?" Nobody else would ALSO hear them? How would he know that? C'mon Toth, at least admit there was a great risk if the rest of the scenario you describe is what you feel happened.

AND WHAT ABOUT THE PINEAPPLE?????????????????????

His seizures? What on earth.....

 

[Toth]

You don't think it's risky to "hear her sobs?" Nobody else would ALSO hear them? How would he know that? C'mon Toth, at least admit there was a great risk if the rest of the scenario you describe is what you feel happened.

No. With all the alcoves, doors and distance involved he certainly felt he was reasonably safe in the basement with her and could fully enjoy her fear and her pain as he took her innocence and her life with great pleasure.

 

[Toth]

Come on, now. To enter the victim's home in a nice area, with family there, to perpetrate a crime, is high risk. You can't slice it or dice it otherwise, IMO.

Precisely!! You are quite correct!!
To enter the victim's home ...... yes. THAT is correct. That is the risk. And once he has entered the home and remained there for a few minutes and no inquisiitve cops show up, then the risk is gone. Totally and completely gone. No silent alarm, no old biddy who was looking out her window and saw him enter. No risk. After ten minutes he is home free! And he knows it.

 

[Imon128]

No, the risk ISN'T gone after that entry. Sorry. JMO

 

[Toth]

No penile penetration, no real long torment for the parents,....... the list goes on.

I think the parents torment is very lengthy: seven years so far. And as for the penetration, I've reason to believe that the paint brush handle was far more suitable. It doesn't leave forensic evidence and after considering certain anatomical situations often addressed in spam these days, the paintbrush was more suitable anyway.

 

[Jayelles]

Statistically - the parents were the most likely to have killed JonBenet so they had to be eliminated first.

The FACT remains that the Ramseys did NOT sit down with police and enable the police to clear them for 4 months (and then not for another 14 months again). The police were not denying them legal representation and I don't think anyone would have criticised them for doing that. Why was it more important to the Ramseys that they weren't interviewed at the BPD than it was they gave police the benefit of their unique witness account of Jonbenet's last hours (whilst they still recalled them)?

I would ask Toth a question - why do you think the Ramseys should have been given an automatic pass in this? Do you think the police would have done a better job if they hadn't tried to question the Ramseys? Do you think the police should not have seen anything suspicious in the Ramseys evasive behaviour in sitting down with Police?

 

[Barbara]

I think the parents torment is very lengthy: seven years so far. And as for the penetration, I've reason to believe that the paint brush handle was far more suitable. It doesn't leave forensic evidence and after considering certain anatomical situations often addressed in spam these days, the paintbrush was more suitable anyway.

Exactly Toth, the paintbrush was more suitable. Why would he care what was suitable for her size? Wouldn't it have been more pain and suffering to use something NOT "suitable"? Why would he/they care? It seems this perp left no forensic evidence either way. The parents' seven year torment in no way enters into this. Besides, if the perp really was familiar with the Ramseys, as is purported, then they also would have known that the family was going to "get on with their lives" within a week anyway, according to the parents. The parents' had forgiven the perp immediately as per their interviews, so what suffering did the perp enjoy? If he really knew them, then he knew they were "Christians" :sick: and would forgive him/them.

WHAT ABOUT THE PINEAPPLE? How does that fit in your scenario?

 

[Toth]

NOTHING that the Ramseys have said or done indicates any sort of "foregiveness"; they want the case solved!