Mr. Clean v. The State and The Tabloids

  • #81
TLynn said:
You can't dismiss a KEY piece of HARD evidence and have any credibility.
Pineapple, which I happen to detest, is rather soft, not hard. Transit time is rather "soft data" too particularly in pediatric cases. With all the dispute as to exactly what was found and where it was found and what the time frame could be, I frankly dismiss the notion that pineapple has much meaning to the case.
My understanding is that it could have been ingested that afternoon and still have been found in the digestive tract.
Its also possible that since the medical examiner had been told there was a bowl of pineapple at the scene, he was unduly influenced by this knowledge in his conclusion that the material was infact pineapple rather than lemon rind which was served with cracked crab at the White's Christmas Dinner Party.
 
  • #82
Barbara said:
Do you dismiss it as non existent? Do you dismiss it as non- crime related? Do you dismiss it as a plant by the BPD or do you just think the coroner made it all up?
I think the coroner was probably mislead by having been told about pineapple at the crime scene, I also dismiss it as not being contra-indicated in the known time frames. Also since it was discarded and never analyzed, I rather think it should be accorded lower weight to things that are known to exist. But mainly, I just don't like pineapple and consider "purported stomach contents" and 'average' transit times to be very unreliable data.
 
  • #83
Toth, no one, including John, Patsy, or even JAR himself, has ever denied that JAR told investigators that he thought the proper punishment for JonBenet's killer was forgiveness. Why not? Because JAR's "forgiveness" statement was videotaped, and there's no way the Rs could claim he didn't say it. Don't you think they'd have sued if the "forgiveness" story wasn't true?
 
  • #84
Ivy said:
sissi, do you really think anyone would have the gall to do what you described, knowing the rest of the family was upstairs and might hear? I don't. Anyway, if someone did do those things, don't you think one of the three remaining Ramseys would have heard and come to investigate?

The "fur" in JB's palm was only a few hairs, wasn't it? And it wasn't found anywhere but on her palm, as I recall. If she had been holding, or even just petting, a rabbit or other animal, I'd think its hairs would have been found on more places than just her palm. Maybe the hairs came from an art brush. Various kinds of animal hairs are used in art brush bristles, including beaver and camel.

Anyone who knew the house would have felt quite comfortable,four stories away from the parents bedroom.
I have an addition, if I am in the computer room,I can not hear the children on the second floor,and I am only one level and 40 feet from the top of the stairs where they sleep. There are reasons for this,the older part of the house maintains the original heating system,duct work for hot air,the walls are also about a foot thick covered in brick,the newer addition is the drywall stuff covered in cement and stucco and uses an electric baseboard heating system. Most of the sound carried in a house carries down the walls or through the ducts,not so when "two" houses are connected,as in the case of most additions. This is why I have a rough spunky dog!

I have read where there was one beaver hair on the duct tape but several animal hairs on her hands. Certainly ,by this time, the fur should have been matched to the species,it must be a secret!
IMO JMO
 
  • #85
Toth said:
He was hiding in his rental car parked in the alley but drove to a block or so away once he saw them leave and walked to the house.

Toth, that alley is so very narrow, short, and the houses are so close to it that I think someone even in another house would have seen a suspicious car sitting parked there with a lone guy in it. It is only wide enough for one car at the time, so I cannot fathom that he would be sitting in a rented car in the alley. Maybe on the street, but not the alleyway.
 
  • #86
Toth said:
No, he was a two-victim sort of guy! But having bagged his two victims, he is content...for the nonce.

Which means....what? Are you speaking of Susannah Chase here, or....just whom?
 
  • #87
Actually, it has indeed been denied.
 
  • #88
No, Susannah Chase was Boulder victim. His first murder was not in Boulder.
 
  • #89
Ivy said:
Anyway, if someone did do those things, don't you think one of the three remaining Ramseys would have heard and come to investigate?
Sound tests performed by an acoustic engineering firm hired by the CBI showed that screams in the basement were unlikely to be heard on the top floor but would indeed be propagated outside through the disconnected pipe.
 
  • #90
Toth said:
Okay. Lets face it.
On one side we have some "Ozzie and Harriet" types a sort of Mr. and Mrs. Clean and on the opposite side we have the BPD, DA-Hunter, the Mayor, the Governor, the Tabloids, etc. We even have posters who will go to extreme lengths to discount what would otherwise be the most significant evidence: foreign dna under the fingernails and in the panties of a female who has been raped and murdered.

We have people who once they learn about pageants immediately see "stage mothers" and "pedophiles".

We have six cops galivanting off to Michigan to look at a hard drive in case it has pornography on it but we don't have even one cop walking half a block to check on known sex offenders who were then on parole.

We had the first hero in the case: Trip DeMuth an ADA who fought mightly to get decent forensic testing done against the BPD's initial attitude that forensic evidence was meaningless because the parents would just say 'we live there, ofcourse our prints and dna are there' and the BPD's attitude of ''an ADA should shut up unless specifically asked a legal question by the BPD". And we have the second hero of the case: Mike Bynum who clearly heard the sound of a massive railroad train and knew that the Ramseys needed lawyers and needed them fast because it was a campaign to convict the parents not an investigation.

So technically its not solely Mr. and Mrs. Clean versus the overwhelming money and power of The State and The Tabloids, but in effect thats really what it has been.

Discussion thread: WHY such an initial bias? How could such false and misleading guff about 'no footprints in the snow' be propagated so promptly?
But above all else: WHY DOES IT CONTINUE?
Is it that parents in that situation are weak and should somehow be pounced on and pecked to death despite their Ozzie and Harriet status? Or is it because of their "Mr.Clean and Mr.Rich" status that they must endure this continuing nonsense of parental guilt despite overwhelming evidence of an intruder and total lack of any evidence of some sort of instantaneous but transitory pathological homicidal rage?

...I agree LET'S FACE IT... FWIW FYI...!!!???~~~
http://www.tarpley.net/bush21.htm
 
  • #91
Blazeboy3 said:
...I agree LET'S FACE IT... FWIW FYI...!!!???~~~
http://www.tarpley.net/bush21.htm

http://www.tarpley.net/bush21.htm

George Bush was less than pleased with the media coverage of the prostitution charges and kept abreast of the scandal as it mushroomed. The Washington Times reported in an article titled ``White House Mute on Call Boy Scandal,'' that ``White House sources confirmed that President Bush has followed the story of the late night visit and Mr. Spence's links to a homosexual prostitution ring under investigation by federal authorities since they were disclosed June 29 in the Washington Times. But top officials will not discuss the story's substance, reportedly even among themselves.

``Press officers have rebuffed repeated requests to obtain Mr. Bush's reaction and decline to discuss investigations or fall out from the disclosures.''@s2 By midsummer, the scandal had been buried. The President had managed to avoid giving a single press conference where he would surely have been asked to comment.

As the call boy ring affair dominated the cocktail gossip circuit in Washington, another scandal, halfway across the country in the state of Nebraska, peaked. Again this scandal knocked on the President's door.

A black Republican who had been a leader in organizing minority support for the President's 1988 campaign and who proudly displayed a photo of himself and the President, arm in arm, in his Omaha home, was at the center of a sex and money scandal that continues to rock the Cornhusker state.

The scandal originated with the collapse of the minority-oriented Franklin Community Credit Union in Omaha, directed by Lawrence E. King, Jr., a nationally influential black Republican who sang the national anthem at both the 1984 and 1988 Republican conventions. King became the subject of the Nebraska Senate's investigation conducted by the specially created ``Franklin Committee'' to probe charges of embezzlement. In November 1988, King's offices were raided by the FBI and $40 million was discovered missing. Within weeks, the Nebraska Senate, which initially opened the inquiry to find out where the money had gone, instead found itself questioning young adults and teenagers who said that they had been child prostitutes. Social workers and state child-care administrators accused King of running a child prostitution ring. The charges grew with the former police chief of Omaha, the publisher of the state's largest daily newspaper, and several other political associates of King, finding themselves accused of patronizing the child prostitution ring.

King is now serving a 15-year federal prison sentence for defrauding the Omaha-based credit union. But the magazines Avvenimenti of Italy and Pronto of Spain, among others, have charged that King's crimes were more serious: that he ran a national child prostitution ring that serviced the political and business elite of both Republican and Democratic parties. Child victims of King's operations charged him with participation in at least one satanic ritual murder of a child several years ago. The Washington Post, New York Times, Village Voice and National Law Journal covered the full range of accusations after the story broke in November of 1988. King's money machinations were also linked to the Iran-Contra affair, and some say that King provided the CIA with information garnered from his alleged activities as a ``pimp'' for the high and mighty.

Pronto, the Barcelona-based, largest circulation weekly in Spain with 4.5 million readers, reported that the Lawrence E. King child prostitution scandal ``appears to directly implicate politicos of the state of Nebraska and Washington, D.C. who are very close to the White House and George Bush himself.''

The weekly stated that Roy Stephens, a private investigator who has worked on the case and heads the Missing Youth Foundation, ``says there is reason to believe that the CIA is directly implicated,'' and that the ``FBI refuses to help in the investigation and has sabotaged any efforts'' to get to the bottom of the story. Stephens says that ``Paul Bonnacci directly accused President Bush of being implicated'' in the affair when he testified before the Franklin Committee.@s3 Bonnacci, who had been one of the child prostitutes, is identified by leading child-abuse experts as a well-informed, credible witness.

Lawrence King was no stranger to President Bush. And Lawrence King was no stranger to Craig Spence. Several of the Omaha child prostitutes testified that they had traveled to Washington, D.C. with King in private planes to attend political events which were followed by sex parties. King and Spence had much in common. Not only were they both Republican Party activists but they had gone into business together procuring prostitutes for Washington's elite.

Bush's name had repeatedly surfaced in the Nebraska scandal. But his name was first put into print in July 1989, a little less than a month after the Washington call boy affair had first made headlines. Omaha's leading daily newspaper reported, ``One child, who has been under psychiatric care, is said to believe she saw George Bush at one of King's parties.''@s4

A full three years after the scandal had first made headlines, Bush's name again appeared in print. Gentleman's Quarterly (GQ) carried a lengthy article, viewed by many political observers in Nebraska as an attempt to refute the charges which would not die, despite the termination of all official inquiries. The GQ piece disputed the allegations as a conspiracy theory that went out of control and resonated because of some mystical sociological phenomena allegedly unique to Nebraskan rural folk who will believe anything and burn ``with the mistrust of city life that once inflamed the prairie with populist passion.'' Numerous polls over the last few years have recorded over 90% saying they believe there has been a ``cover up'' of the truth.

GQ reported that yes, there was theft, corruption and homosexuality in this story, ``but no children were ever involved in this case.'' In fact, ``the only child even mentioned was a 9-year-old boy, whom the least reliable of Caradori's witnesses claimed to have seen in the company of George Bush at one of Larry King's Washington parties.''

Gary Caradori was a retired state police investigator who had been hired by the Nebraska Senate to investigate the case, and who had died mysteriously during the course of his investigations.@s5

Sound crazy? Not to Steve Bowman, an Omaha businessman who is compiling a book about the Franklin money and sex scandal. ``We do have some credible witnesses who say that `Yes, George Bush does have a problem.'... Child abuse has become one of the epidemics of the 1990s,'' Bowman told GQ. Allegedly, one of Bowman's sources is a retired psychiatrist who worked for the CIA. He added that cocaine trafficking and political corruption were the other principal themes of his book.@s6

It didn't sound crazy to Peter Sawyer either. An Australian conservative activist who publishes a controversial newsletter, Inside News, with a circulation of 200,000, dedicated his November 1991 issue entirely to the Nebraska scandal, focusing on President Bush's links to the affair. In a section captioned, ``The Original Allegations: Bush First Named in 1985,'' Sawyer writes,

"Stories about child sex and pornography first became public knowledge in 1989, following the collapse of the Franklin Credit Union. That is not when the allegations started, however. Indeed, given the political flavor of the subsequent investigations, it would be easy to dismiss claims that George Bush had been involved. He was by then a very public figure...."

If the first allegations about a massive child exploitation ring, centered around Larry King and leading all the way to the White House, had been made in 1989, and had all come from the same source, some shenanigans and mischievous collusion could be suspected. However, the allegations arising out of the Franklin Credit Union collapse were not the first.

Way back in 1985, a young girl, Eulice (Lisa) Washington, was the center of an investigation by Andrea L. Carener, of the Nebraska Department of Social Services. The investigation was instigated because Lisa and her sister Tracey continually ran away from their foster parents, Jarrett and Barbara Webb. Initially reluctant to disclose information for fear of being further punished, the two girls eventually recounted a remarkable story, later backed up by other children who had been fostered out to the Webb's [sic].
 
  • #92
:sick: :clap: :hand: :doh: :hand:
Blazeboy3 said:
http://www.tarpley.net/bush21.htm
...
Chapter -XXI- Omaha
On the morning of June 29, 1989, pandemonium erupted in the corridors of power in the nation's capital. ``Homosexual Prostitution Probe Ensnares Official of Bush, Reagan,'' screamed the front-page headline of the Washington Times with the kicker ``Call Boys Took Midnight Tour of White House.''
The Times reported, ``A homosexual prostitution ring is under investigation by federal and District authorities and includes among its clients key officials of the Reagan and Bush administrations, military officers, congressional aides and U.S. and foreign businessmen with close ties to Washington's political elite.''
...
George Bush was less than pleased with the media coverage of the prostitution charges and kept abreast of the scandal as it mushroomed. The Washington Times reported in an article titled ``White House Mute on Call Boy Scandal,'' that ``White House sources confirmed that President Bush has followed the story of the late night visit and Mr. Spence's links to a homosexual prostitution ring under investigation by federal authorities since they were disclosed June 29 in the Washington Times. But top officials will not discuss the story's substance, reportedly even among themselves.

XXXOOO G W BUSH :rolleyes: :banghead: :waitasec: :snooty: ! !!???
 
  • #93
Toth said:
No, Susannah Chase was Boulder victim. His first murder was not in Boulder.
Let me guess.
And the murderer's name is....(drum roll)..."PACHALY"!!!

Yeah-yeah, dat's da ticket, Toth!
 
  • #94
Toth said:
Sound tests performed by an acoustic engineering firm hired by the CBI showed that screams in the basement were unlikely to be heard on the top floor but would indeed be propagated outside through the disconnected pipe.

But the perp would not have known that on the night of the murder. Do you think he had an accomplice and they sound-tested before the Rs returned home?
 
  • #95
sissi said:
Let's pretend she ate the pineapple at home before her murder. At minimum two hours elapsed between eating the pineapple and the murder.
Can we develop a scenario around the pineapple?
A person known to her,entered the house with a furry animal (she had fur in her hands) and they sat at the table eating pineapple playing with the bunny or whatever,before he stood and stunned her. He then dragged her to the basement,tried to place her in the suitcase to carry her out,but she fought him,he stunned her again,and again she regained enough "oomph" to fight him. He then stunned her again,tied her hands,probably stuffed a rag in her mouth,garotted her ,tortured her with the paintbrush,then thinking she was dead,kicked her in the head with a steel toed boot. He had come to kidnap her,lure her,but she was an unwilling victim,and he,drunk or high "lost it". They never found the source of the ink on her hand,they never found the piece of paintbrush used to molest her,nor the cord nor tape. They don't know the source for the fur or the fibers. No parent would "half clean up" this crime scene.
IMO JMO

The intruder brought a bunny (or a cat or a beaver) with him? What did he do with the animal while he was stun-gunning, gagging, torturing and kicking JBR and running around with an uncreased, fingerprintless ransom note?

He couldn't have taken the risk of it getting loose in the house. Now cats will find a litter box if they can, but bunnies will poop wherever they feel like it. I'm not familar with the toilet habits of beavers, but I will hazard a guess that they are not particular about the accomodations. Wouldn't they leave spoor somewhere in the house?

Did the intruder bring a pet carrier? Did he stun JBR at the table, grab the animal, put it back in the carrier, drag her to the basement along WITH the carrier, or did he leave it in the kitchen?

And after ALL this activity, and ALL the time it took to drag JBR and the bunny around the house ... THERE IS NO DNA NOR FIBER EVIDENCE OF AN INTRUDER?

This alleged intruder didn't just grab JBR and take her out of the house ala David Westerfield. He was all OVER the house and up and down the stairs and basement and kitchen and JBR's room. He even rummaged around and found Burke's knife that had been hidden in a cupboard by the maid.

But wait. There's more. On top of ALL THIS, the intruder also convinced Patsy to write the ransom note for him ... in her own hand and inimitable style.

Oh my. This is no mere intruder ... this is Superman, James Bond and Houdini all rolled into one!




IMO
 
  • #96
Toth said:
Its also possible that since the medical examiner had been told there was a bowl of pineapple at the scene, he was unduly influenced by this knowledge in his conclusion that the material was infact pineapple rather than lemon rind which was served with cracked crab at the White's Christmas Dinner Party.

Yeah - like a 6 yr old child is going to eat "lemon rind." LOL!!
Especially when her favorite snack WAS pineapple and there WAS pineapple sitting out in her home ready to grab and eat and there WAS pineapple in her digestive system.
 
  • #97
Don't be absurd.
 
  • #98
No, only that his assumption about it being safe to do things in the basement without the parents hearing it was reasonable.
 
  • #99
I said it is possible that it was lemon: pineapple was suggested to the coroner, it was not tested.
In fact, I think she merely ate some pineapple before going out that afternoon to the White's party. I don't think she was fed any that night after they got home. I don't think she got up during the night and wanted any pineapple.
 
  • #100
Shylock said:
Well I don't know, Toth. Just how smart do you think it is to leave a ransom note for a person whose dead body is left in the house?...DUH!
(Nobody is THAT stupid...)
That is like saying that placing icing on a cake is stupid or that smearing cream cheese on the bagel is stupid. Sure you can have cake or a bagel that is 'plain' but its more fun if the cake has 'icing' on it and its more fun if the bagel has something on it too.

The document is not a ransom note. It never was a ransom note. It never will be a ransom note. It is a parody, a tool for obtaining further fun. Its like the 'icing' on the cake. Its an added touch. He enjoyed writing that note and he enjoyed the panic they would feel and he enjoyed the hours of futile sitting by the phone that they would endure.

It is not 'stupid' to twist the knife after you plunge it into someone's guts; its fun!
 

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