Mr. Clean v. The State and The Tabloids

[Toth]

For the parents to suffer the body of JBR would have been naked, no cover, the sexual abuse would be more significant, more brutal, well you know... (I hate even writing this stuff).

Where is the thrill if the intruder cannot witness it? Where is the thrill if the intruder cannot hear or know about it? Let's not forget that at the time of this crime, the intruder also had no way of knowing what a national and international sensation this case would turn out to be, so therefore, he had no way of knowing what the parents would be going through.

I think its a question of finesse or something like that.
Consider a man who likes to slice a woman's nipples off. He gets pleasure from the act, but he is NOT going to slice BOTH of them off. He will slice ONE off because what he really enjoys is not her initial pain and horror but her perpetual ordeal. He will not witness her perpetual ordeal, but he will experience it! That is his real goal. So it is true that the intruder did not 'witness' their shock at finding the note. He did not 'witness' their horror and panic. He did not 'witness' their hours of agonizing worry. He did not 'witness' their actual discovery of the corpse. He did not 'witness' their belated realization of what the stiffness and odors meant. But do not think that he did not 'experience' all those things. He did. And he enjoyed it. And he continues to enjoy it! Very much.

As to 'national and international sensation'. I'm not too sure. Alot depends on its being a 'slow news day' and alot of other things, but I would imagine he had a pretty good idea he would be making headlines nationally.

 

[Nehemiah]

Toth, do you think the intruder is upset that the Ramseys are getting all the media attention (by being blamed for the murder) rather than himself?

 

[Toth]

No, not at all. I think he could not withstand any media attention himself anyway. he certainly does not want it.

 

[Barbara]

I think its a question of finesse or something like that.
Consider a man who likes to slice a woman's nipples off. He gets pleasure from the act, but he is NOT going to slice BOTH of them off. He will slice ONE off because what he really enjoys is not her initial pain and horror but her perpetual ordeal. He will not witness her perpetual ordeal, but he will experience it! That is his real goal. So it is true that the intruder did not 'witness' their shock at finding the note. He did not 'witness' their horror and panic. He did not 'witness' their hours of agonizing worry. He did not 'witness' their actual discovery of the corpse. He did not 'witness' their belated realization of what the stiffness and odors meant. But do not think that he did not 'experience' all those things. He did. And he enjoyed it. And he continues to enjoy it! Very much.

As to 'national and international sensation'. I'm not too sure. Alot depends on its being a 'slow news day' and alot of other things, but I would imagine he had a pretty good idea he would be making headlines nationally.

Absolutely absurd! Utter Nonsense! He experienced nothing. Ask any psychologist about your scenario. See what they say.

AND, I've decided to discount and dismiss the stun gun based on your logic. Like the pineapple scenario you describe, I believe that Lou Smit suggested a stun gun, based on *******'s suggestion to him. That suggestion was put into Dr. Doberson's head (kinda like the coroner) and based on that, the marks began to look like stun gun marks to him; so out the door with the stun gun. Thanks Toth. You've opened up a whole new realm of non evidence for me.

Same goes with the intruder scenario. Lou Smit's powerpoint presentation was so suggestive, that some actually have come to believe there was an intruder. Never mind that he couldn't get through the window without touching everything around him. Nah, just a suggestion.

Wow, this is easy. Theories are easy when you just discount the official documented FACTS.

 

[Ivy]

Toth...all that to try to explain away what the facts of the case say? I think you're trying too hard and grasping at nip--er, straws.

 

[Toth]

Lou Smit and Trip DeMuth arrived at the stun gun conclusion without any input at all from the CaseHeroinne.
The coroner arrived at the conclusion of 'pineapple' only after having improperly been advised that pinepapple was found at the crime scene.

 

[K777angel]

He enjoyed writing that note and he enjoyed the panic they would feel and he enjoyed the hours of futile sitting by the phone that they would endure.

It is not 'stupid' to twist the knife after you plunge it into someone's guts; its fun!

It is absurd Toth to think that this "intruder" guy set things up the way they were set up - with the expectation that their daughter WOULDN'T be found when she is right there in the house!! There was NO plan in the way things were set up that the parents would have "hours of futile sitting by the phone".
Only if the child WAS indeed taken away would this absurd proposal fit.
But alas - we know that she was not. And this supposed "intruder" then beat the odds.
Because it is only by an enormous fluke that JonBenet was not found in that
room at 6:10am by Officer French. Yes - she SHOULD have been and he has regretted choosing not to open that LATCHED door for years.
Unless of course JonBenet was not there - yet - and her father John Ramsey did indeed discover something when he was down there for that lengthy period of time that morning and moved her there from another location. We'll probably never know....

 

[why_nutt]

Lou Smit and Trip DeMuth arrived at the stun gun conclusion without any input at all from the CaseHeroinne.
The coroner arrived at the conclusion of 'pineapple' only after having improperly been advised that pinepapple was found at the crime scene.

And Dobersen arrived at the conclusion of stun-gun use in the Boggs case only after having been improperly advised that a stun gun was found in the car of a suspect. Dobersen certainly did not arrive at that conclusion independent of strong police wishes that he do so.

 

[Barbara]

Lou Smit and Trip DeMuth arrived at the stun gun conclusion without any input at all from the CaseHeroinne.
The coroner arrived at the conclusion of 'pineapple' only after having improperly been advised that pinepapple was found at the crime scene.

Heroine sounds like what brings her to some of her conclusions. Although it's not too far fetched to realize that Lou came up with that all by himself, like the vein being an electric charge causing the blue line on JBR. Yeah, you're probably right. Lou doesn't need the extra stupidity; he's got enough of his own.

I think YOU are being improperly advised.

Don't you think it's odd that at the mere suggestion, the coroner found something? Wouldn't he have been better off "finding" something a lot more valuable that would be suggested? Your suggestion that it was corruption for the coroner to "find" things is rude and uncalled for. Leave the corruption in Keenan's office where we at least know it started and will likely end, along with Lin and the Ramseys laughing at the police, counting their money and Jaguars and getting away with murder.

 

[K777angel]

The coroner arrived at the conclusion of 'pineapple' only after having improperly been advised that pinepapple was found at the crime scene.

There you go again Toth. Claiming something as fact - when you have absolutely NO way of knowing or not. Or so you say...
What is your source for the coroner being "improperly advised" that pineapple was found at the crime scene?? And so what if he was told that? How can you imply that this man is so inept in his job that he'd technically describe something that wasn't there in her stomach? What in God's name would be HIS motive?? Oh that's right - there's a world-wide conspiracy against the Ramseys. Meyer is just part of it.

Good grief.

 

[Toth]

I said nothing about a conspiracy.
He simply should have determined what the substance was based on his training and the tests he performed without any suggestions as to what it might be.
AFTER he has made a determination, then it can be noted that pineapple in the intestines might have been ingested at the home since a bowl of pineapple was found there, albeit it may have been put out by the witness advocate.

 

[TLynn]

I said it is possible that it was lemon: pineapple was suggested to the coroner, it was not tested.
In fact, I think she merely ate some pineapple before going out that afternoon to the White's party. I don't think she was fed any that night after they got home. I don't think she got up during the night and wanted any pineapple.

Yes, it was tested. The pineapple was later tested and found to be consistent with the pineapple found in the home ("down to the rind").

It is SCIENTIFICALLY impossible for JonBenet to have eaten the pineapple before going to the Whites - as the Whites' dinner was already digested - the pineapple was not.

In addition, how can you "explain away" that she ate the pineapple anytime prior to arriving home when, in fact, the Ramseys deny buying or having any knowledge of the pineapple in the home.

If you don't think she was fed any that night or didn't get up in the middle of the night - then you have a BIG HOLE in your theory and it can not be credible.

The Ramseys state the intruder brought the pineapple and enticed JonBenet downstairs with it.

You didn't post that option because as we all know - it is absurd.

 

[Jayelles]

Are the RSt now denying the pineapple even existed? There were photos of the pineapple - Patsy looked at them and said she wouldn't do that "set up" - i.e. the big spoon in the pineapple bowl.

Lou Smit confirmed that it was pineapple in her digestive tract - he told John Ramsey that was the "big bugaboo".

And he is right - it is. The RST cannot satisfactorily explain that pineapple. Experts say from 2 hours for it to get to where it was in her digestive tract. So:-

1) if she ate it before she left for the Whites, she must have died pretty quickly after she got home at 9-ish.

OR

2) if she ate it when she got home, then the Ramseys are lying about her being asleep when they got home(and Burke was telling the truth).

 

[Toltec]

Let's pretend she ate the pineapple at home before her murder. At minimum two hours elapsed between eating the pineapple and the murder.
Can we develop a scenario around the pineapple?
A person known to her,entered the house with a furry animal (she had fur in her hands) and they sat at the table eating pineapple playing with the bunny or whatever,before he stood and stunned her. He then dragged her to the basement,tried to place her in the suitcase to carry her out,but she fought him,he stunned her again,and again she regained enough "oomph" to fight him. He then stunned her again,tied her hands,probably stuffed a rag in her mouth,garotted her ,tortured her with the paintbrush,then thinking she was dead,kicked her in the head with a steel toed boot. He had come to kidnap her,lure her,but she was an unwilling victim,and he,drunk or high "lost it". They never found the source of the ink on her hand,they never found the piece of paintbrush used to molest her,nor the cord nor tape. They don't know the source for the fur or the fibers. No parent would "half clean up" this crime scene.
IMO JMO

Are you the poster who once theorized that the killer stepped on a dead beaver before entering the Ramsey home???

FACT...BY EARLY MORNING DEC 27...LESS THAN 24 HOURS after John Ramsey discovered little JonBenet Ramsey's body, the Ramseys already had in place a high powered defense team who in turn had their own private investigators "interviewing" the Whites and Fernies.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

John Ramsey discovers his daughters body at approximately 1:00pm December 26. He immediately wants to fly to Atlanta with his family. He is told not to leave because the police want to interview him. He then tells Police to "Give us a day".

Instead of just using that day to mourn, John Ramsey gets legal advise from one of his financial lawyers...who I might add, was no close friend and what the heck was he doing in a home where only close friends and family were gathering. Bynum calls the most high powered and expensive defense attornies. WHY? Why do you need the biggest guns if you are innocent? Why would the Ramseys think they were being targeted so early in the investigation? I'm not talking days here folks, I'm talking hours.

That's only one of the reasons I know they are guilty.

 

[sissi]

Toltec...LOL

No,I just do not understand why a beaver hair was identified and this handful of hair wasn't. Any guesses as to why they can not identify the species? Maybe it was a furby,one of the original ones,civet cat? Heck I don't know,I was just pointing out,how much we do not know,and how at this point any scenario is as good as another,unless IMO it points to Burke as the perp.
IMO JMO
http://www.impactmedia.com/stories/furby.html

ah...she got a prototype..small foreign faction..hmmmm

 

[Imon128]

Handful of hair? I've not read about the quantity of hair found, in such detail. Where can I read that?

 

[Toth]

Why do you need the biggest guns if you are innocent?

If you are guilty you need a lawyer. If you are innocent, you need a good lawyer.

 

[Toth]

Others believe it is pineapple. I thought it might be lemon which is often served with crab, an item eaten at the Whites, however, I was informed that it was indeed pineapple quite some time ago.

I still do not see how pineapple in her digestive tract makes anyone think there is something wrong with the known timeline.

 

[Jayelles]

I still do not see how pineapple in her digestive tract makes anyone think there is something wrong with the known timeline.

Happy to spell it out again.

Quite simply because it challenges the parents' accounts of events. They say she was fast asleep at 9-ish and was put straight to bed. They left for the Whites at 4.30-ish which means that if she ate the pineapple BEFORE going to the Whites, then she must have died very soon after she came home - which could mean ... when the Ramseys were still up and about.

OR It means that she was NOT asleep when they came home and that she helped herself to pineapple before going to bed and being killed a few hours later.

Either way - it challenges the parents' version of events - seriously. That is why I believe Lou SMit called it the BUGABOO.

 

[Ivy]

Thanks, Jayelles.

Also, JonBenet's fingerprints were NOT found on the bowl of pineapple...only Patsy's and Burke's, so that means JonBenet didn't get out of bed and get the pineapple herself.