Murder 1 or a Lesser Included Offense?

[Lera213]

My opinion as a layperson if the DT even tries the Ugly coping theory they will anger the jury. There are many people who have been raped, addicted, low self esteem and also having a MOMMY DEAREST, worse then CA and GA combined that have not killed.

MURDER 1 and she will be convicted based off the evidence I've read and heard so far to date.

 

[Bittiness39]

Murder 1. Her first phone call home + speaking to the 911 operator (incidentally has anyone actually heard what people broke down when CA was handing KC the phone???--I have heard it on you tube...KC says to CA when CA says that the 911 people want to talk to her, "I don't have anything to talk to them" before taking the phone)

LISTEN for yourselves:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo7M-esOg-0[/ame]

You can hear it. Along with her lack of caring and CA's obvious distress at the time. I hope this tape gets more play and honestly, again, shows budding defenders of defense attorneys everywhere...why you have to play the cards you are dealt when you take on a client. You don't get to, nor should any defense attorney EVER be entitled to invent cards which don't exist.

Period. Play the cards you are dealt. If they are bad, fold. Or at least act within the realm of decency. This defendent has been given a lot of leeway. And trickery and inventing phantoms should not be something a defense should EVER be allowed in their arsenol...period. Slippery slope. If the prosecution has to abide by certain rules, and give the defendent ten billion times more rights than a victim, the defense should have to stick with the crap they are dealt and not invent nor throw innocent people under their bus without reprecussions.

 

[Just Jayla]

Murder 1. Her first phone call home + speaking to the 911 operator (incidentally has anyone actually heard what people broke down when CA was handing KC the phone???--I have heard it on you tube...KC says to CA when CA says that the 911 people want to talk to her, "I don't have anything to talk to them" before taking the phone)

LISTEN for yourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo7M-esOg-0

You can hear it. Along with her lack of caring and CA's obvious distress at the time. I hope this tape gets more play and honestly, again, shows budding defenders of defense attorneys everywhere...why you have to play the cards you are dealt when you take on a client. You don't get to, nor should any defense attorney EVER be entitled to invent cards which don't exist.

Period. Play the cards you are dealt. If they are bad, fold. Or at least act within the realm of decency. This defendent has been given a lot of leeway. And trickery and inventing phantoms should not be something a defense should EVER be allowed in their arsenol...period. Slippery slope. If the prosecution has to abide by certain rules, and give the defendent ten billion times more rights than a victim, the defense should have to stick with the crap they are dealt and not invent nor throw innocent people under their bus without reprecussions.

Absolutely, this call should be played on a loop in the elevators in lieu of instrumental Celine Dion.

Also, the 1st 911 call, the hold time where CA tells KC it is high time she moves forward with getting custody of Caylee-THAT did not come out of nowhere, that topic of discussion had taken place before.

CA knew her daughter was unfit from day one. However, I am sure CA never thought her own mother, Shirley, would spill the beans about that whole issue, CA speakng with a counselor, etc.

ETA-A passing comment SP made that I had missed before-Shirley said that it had gotten to the point where if she brought up KC's behavior with CA, CA would say she did not want to talk about it.
That tells me that CA told her mother things in exasperation and then, when her mother asked her about the resolution, CA wanted to gloss over, move past. I think that's a sign of guilt on CA's part because if she told her mother about her lack of discipline, her mom would pursue it further and urge CA to act.

 

[AZlawyer]

So, if we work from your theory, the ugliest of ugly coping and wrath-dodging...and we eliminate what we know of premeditation-let's say the state cannot absolutely prove the PC searches were KC or cannot link those searches solidly to the murder...I'm thinking the last greatest ace up the state's sleeve is to prove a fight on the night of the 15th.

On the computer search thread, JWG and others point out that three things occurred around the time of the PC searches- KC steals from Shirley, the computer searches happen, and KC sends a Myspace message to Lee thanking him for sticking up for her. We might conclude that there was a whopper of a fight in March 2008, too, and that KC's gutteral reaction was to off her mother. That fight comes and goes, Lee intervenes. Not that the state can prove that, but-it tells us what kind of person we are dealing with.

If somehow, someway they could pull that fight info out of Cindy re: March or July 15, or get Lee to tell them why he told the fight story to Jesse and that it really happened-Now we've got premeditation that overrides an ugly coping scenario, IMO.

Only if the fight can be somehow connected with a motive to kill Caylee, though.

My opinion as a layperson if the DT even tries the Ugly coping theory they will anger the jury. There are many people who have been raped, addicted, low self esteem and also having a MOMMY DEAREST, worse then CA and GA combined that have not killed.

MURDER 1 and she will be convicted based off the evidence I've read and heard so far to date.

The theory that I'm talking about the defense using would be that Casey did NOT kill Caylee but reacted in an non-typical manner ("ugly coping" if you want to call it that) after Caylee died by accident.

 

[katydid23]

Only if the fight can be somehow connected with a motive to kill Caylee, though.

I am thinking they are going to say that the fight really freaked Casey out, and added to her 'mental state' because she was so afraid of them getting custody of little Caylee because she knew how scary they were, with all of the ' sexual abuse' and what not.

[ BS story continues ...]So that afternoon after George left, Casey came back home to try and plan out what she could do to keep custody and get a job to support her child. While she was getting her stuff together she also promised Caylee she could swim later and so she got the ladder out. Then, without her knowing,Caylee snuck outside and fell into the water,tragically.

At first Casey panicked and called everyone for help, but no one answered their phones. She was too afraid to call 911 because Caylee was already dead. So she decide to go with the clumsy cover up instead.

The ugly coping comes in here, and she acted normal and happy because she was so damaged and disconnected and because she was so afraid of her parents finding out the truth.

The theory that I'm talking about the defense using would be that Casey did NOT kill Caylee but reacted in an non-typical manner ("ugly coping" if you want to call it that) after Caylee died by accident.

I think this is one of the only options they have if all of the other evidence thay want out is actually allowed in.

 

[Just Jayla]

Only if the fight can be somehow connected with a motive to kill Caylee, though.



The theory that I'm talking about the defense using would be that Casey did NOT kill Caylee but reacted in an non-typical manner ("ugly coping" if you want to call it that) after Caylee died by accident.

Yeah, that's the hard part. If it could be demonstrated that there was a fight back in March and that KC's reaction was to research how to off her mama, that would be helpful, too.
But it's a pipe dream on my part. That fight's not even gonna come out, even if it was suggested, it would never be confirmed.

 

[Tiki]

I am thinking they are going to say that the fight really freaked Casey out, and added to her 'mental state' because she was so afraid of them getting custody of little Caylee because she knew how scary they were, with all of the ' sexual abuse' and what not.

[ BS story continues ...]So that afternoon after George left, Casey came back home to try and plan out what she could do to keep custody and get a job to support her child. While she was getting her stuff together she also promised Caylee she could swim later and so she got the ladder out. Then, without her knowing,Caylee snuck outside and fell into the water,tragically.

At first Casey panicked and called everyone for help, but no one answered their phones. She was too afraid to call 911 because Caylee was already dead. So she decide to go with the clumsy cover up instead.

The ugly coping comes in here, and she acted normal and happy because she was so damaged and disconnected and because she was so afraid of her parents finding out the truth.




I think this is one of the only options they have if all of the other evidence thay want out is actually allowed in.

Are you saying a not guilty verdict, or guilty of a lesser charge, because, to me, putting a ladder up to a pool knowing your toddler is impatient to go swimming, might be culpable negligence. It would be like an invitation to the baby and mommy wasn't watching.
So isn't that manslaughter in FL and would she get time - like 30 years I read somewhere?
:dunno:

.

 

[Lera213]

ICA is not mentally ill, she knows right from wrong, I don't care how fearful she or her DT wants to claim...if she died by accident there is NO EXCUSE a jury will buy as to why she didn't call 911 ASAP, but instead she went to great lengths to hide the body. The mere mention of this theory to a juror will make blood come shooting out their eyes

AZ no offense but even that will anger the jury more! This tactic will not work.

 

[pip]

ICA is not mentally ill, she knows right from wrong, I don't care how fearful she or her DT wants to claim...if she died by accident there is NO EXCUSE a jury will buy as to why she didn't call 911 ASAP, but instead she went to great lengths to hide the body. The mere mention of this theory to a juror will make blood come shooting out their eyes

AZ no offense but even that will anger the jury more! This tactic will not work.

I would like to think that too, but i'm a bit nervous that if she admits an accident to the psych MD's, and then fearful 'ugly coping', one or two may buy it. I don't buy it for a second, but it makes my stomach feel ill that they may get away with this.

 

[Just Jayla]

I would like to think that too, but i'm a bit nervous that if she admits an accident to the psych MD's, and then fearful 'ugly coping', one or two may buy it. I don't buy it for a second, but it makes my stomach feel ill that they may get away with this.

Then there is hope-The jury will not be totally unlike us. And they will see the majority of what we have seen.

I tend to lump them into some robotic pile of do-what-you're-tolds, as if the limitations of the testimony, jury instruction and fairness will prevent them from reaching the same conclusions we have.

Just not so-I think they can follow the trail we have, in ALL fairness, and find her guilty of 1st degree murder.

 

[strach304]

Are you saying a not guilty verdict, or guilty of a lesser charge, because, to me, putting a ladder up to a pool knowing your toddler is impatient to go swimming, might be culpable negligence. It would be like an invitation to the baby and mommy wasn't watching.
So isn't that manslaughter in FL and would she get time - like 30 years I read somewhere?
:dunno:

.

Not only that but in the case of an accidental drowning she did nothing to try and save her daughter.

 

[strach304]

I am thinking they are going to say that the fight really freaked Casey out, and added to her 'mental state' because she was so afraid of them getting custody of little Caylee because she knew how scary they were, with all of the ' sexual abuse' and what not.

[ BS story continues ...]So that afternoon after George left, Casey came back home to try and plan out what she could do to keep custody and get a job to support her child. While she was getting her stuff together she also promised Caylee she could swim later and so she got the ladder out. Then, without her knowing,Caylee snuck outside and fell into the water,tragically.

At first Casey panicked and called everyone for help, but no one answered their phones. She was too afraid to call 911 because Caylee was already dead. So she decide to go with the clumsy cover up instead.

The ugly coping comes in here, and she acted normal and happy because she was so damaged and disconnected and because she was so afraid of her parents finding out the truth.




I think this is one of the only options they have if all of the other evidence thay want out is actually allowed in.

So afraid she in fact constantly had them babysitting? Her behavior was actually the same after as before the death.

 

[Just Jayla]

I am beginning to hope that the defense goes with the "it was an accident but KC freaked out and tried to cover it up" play call.
As a juror, I would want to know why someone would put themselves up for the death penalty just because they were worried about what their family and the public would think...
Further, I would need more proof that KC was so petrified of mother Cindy...she sure did not sound petrified when she placed the call from jail, cussing at CA and being outright nasty. And AnnieD didn't think KC was submissive to CA either-Not the way she yelled at her over the e-mail signed "Case."
They'd have a lot to prove to me, but then, I am not presuming KC innocent.

 

[JBean]

bumping for discussion as to whether KC will be found not guilty of Murder 1 but guilty of a lesser included offense.

 

[niaa]

Only if the fight can be somehow connected with a motive to kill Caylee, though.



The theory that I'm talking about the defense using would be that Casey did NOT kill Caylee but reacted in an non-typical manner ("ugly coping" if you want to call it that) after Caylee died by accident.

I think the ugly coping will be used, but to explain why she didn't report Caylee missing after dropping her off at the Nanny's. I think the DT will stick to the story of the Nanny. ICA thought the Nanny had an apartment there, ICA dropped the car at AMSCOT and it didn't smell (TL didn't smell anything, GA didn't smell anything) the car must have started smelling after she dropped it off. Maybe ZFG had a key to the car as well as the house and planted the evidence.

:liar::liar:

We will see on Tuesday.

 

[Marina2]

I think if KC is put on the stand, gives a reasonable explanation for all the circumstantial evidence against her and survives cross examination she could easily be found guilty of a lesser included offense. Manslaughter would be my guess. If she doesn't take the stand then I think she will be convicted of first degree murder.

 

[Marina2]

It looks like maybe the DT is going to try to say Caylee's death was an accident and wants to bring in a Dr. to testify to her "state of mind".

What kind of accident that could happen to a 2 year old that wouldn't be "culpable negligence" and therefore "Aggravated child abuse"?

What could happen to a toddler to cause her death if her mother/caretaker was not neglecting her?

Could they use the drowning in the pool excuse, say if they were sleeping and Caylee somehow got into the pool? or got into medications or fell off something? With only skeletal remains, they could say almost anything as long as it didn't involve injury to bones.

I'm trying to understand why the 31 days even if she was afraid of CA, if it really was an accident that was not ICA's fault in any way.

And didn't ICA already try that with the kidnapping story. Is it possible they are going to try to stick with that, with all the evidence in ICA's car?

.

bbm

By the statutes, culpable negligence is not an element of aggravated child abuse but of manslaughter. You can't arrive at felony murder from a manslaughter charge like you can with aggravated child abuse. The state may show one or the other but if I'm not mistaken, manslaughter would be the lesser included offense of first degree murder. I really don't understand the indictment and how they're going to present their theory. Will they show first degree murder through premeditation or felony murder from aggravated child abuse (both of which shows intent to harm), and/or aggravated manslaughter through culpable negligence? Can they just put out a number of theories and let the jury choose one?

 

[Scamperoo]

I am thinking they are going to say that the fight really freaked Casey out, and added to her 'mental state' because she was so afraid of them getting custody of little Caylee because she knew how scary they were, with all of the ' sexual abuse' and what not.

[ BS story continues ...]So that afternoon after George left, Casey came back home to try and plan out what she could do to keep custody and get a job to support her child. While she was getting her stuff together she also promised Caylee she could swim later and so she got the ladder out. Then, without her knowing,Caylee snuck outside and fell into the water,tragically.

At first Casey panicked and called everyone for help, but no one answered their phones. She was too afraid to call 911 because Caylee was already dead. So she decide to go with the clumsy cover up instead.

The ugly coping comes in here, and she acted normal and happy because she was so damaged and disconnected and because she was so afraid of her parents finding out the truth.




I think this is one of the only options they have if all of the other evidence thay want out is actually allowed in.

Except according to Cindy the pool ladder was out on the 17th after they returned from work not the 16th, I think 17th was one of the days KC backed into the garage. So that incident had nothing to do with what occurred the night of the 15th or day of the 16th.

 

[CBTampa]

IIRC It was raining on the 16th. Why would she put a ladder up in the rain? Maybe my memory is failing me.

 

[Marina2]

By the way, I haven't seen Wudge around in a very long time. I sure would like to read his thoughts as the case is being presented.