NC - Zahra Clare Baker, 10, Hickory, 9 Oct 2010 - #8

[shefner]

IMO I think so, but im guessing marijuana due to his weight. My daughter lived in Hickory years ago and people did it right in the open, I guess because its a dry state, no alcohol can be purchased there.

Sorry but while marijuana is gainly popularity everywhere, its still against the law and regularly prosecuted here in NC.

Also, North Carolina is not a dry state. Alcohol is readily available everywhere....even in a small town like mine, between Hickory and Charlotte.

 

[nobodyspecial]

If someone had an accident with that wood chipper in the past their could easily be decomposing flesh for the dog to hit on which is what they are trained to detect. But they would not detect animal remains.

I wouldn't think they are ONLY using dogs that are solely trained for blood sniffing. It would be negligent on their part. My guess is that they've had 3-4 types of dogs out there. Trained for blood, trained for cadaver, trained for live, and one specifically to hunt Zhara's specific scent.

:doh: I just had a complete and total derp moment. Of course you're right...there would be decomp in a chipper. I keep thinking something smooth, that only blood would remain on....like my brain refuses to keep going to this sickening place.

Gonna go sit on the nice, comfy quiet sofa til the tylenol kicks in I think... lol.

 

[Oriah]

Patty -
I believe what LE has confirmed is that they have used police and HRD dogs in the search, and that dogs have alerted. They did not specify exactly where or on what. But that is standard protocol for searches.
Hope this helps.

 

[darnudes]

That may just make him irresponsible not brainwashed. I don't think he could be brainwashed before he came to the states maybe he was infatuated with this woman and came here for himself not caring about poor Zahra.

For sure, but I just think he is the submissive partner, not giving him a pass believe me.

 

[kalekona]

Can someone please explain to me how AB is brainwashed? I tend to believe he is just covering his own @$$ and is afraid he might go to prison.

Many seemingly good people do horrible things.

He is involved somehow IMO.

I don't think he is brainwashed but he is stuck- humans often put blinders on so they don't have to acknowledge the bad- he may have been afraid he would loose Zahra to the state, be sent back to Aust., turned in for drugs any number of things (ever known a guy who had a girlfriend convince him she was pregnant with his baby when common sense and logic all point to the fact she is a lying vixen?)

From all accounts AB was a good and loving father until he met EM-

He clearly knew his daughter wasn't being treated right by his wife, but we have yet to hear anyone say he beat his daughter.

EB lied about how she hurt her hand to prevent AB from knowing she hit Zahra which leads me to believe he had no idea the extent

The definition of abuse verses discipline is pretty abstract- did what EB see fit in his idea of discipline?

What is the NC law on spanking? What is considered abuse in NC

WA has a law "homicide by abuse" which was put in place because of a little boy who fell through the cracks "Eli Creekmore" the law covers long term abuse, systematic abuse and torture- part of that law also says anyone who participates in actively disciplining a child is an accomplice even if they did not abuse the child- (for instance a mother and child are staying with you and you put that child in the corner, then later down the line the child is killed by it's mother- the letter of the law says that you too can be charged with Homicide by abuse.)

Long and short of all that is does the law in NC say the father is an accomplice in the abuse (with the same culpability as the actual abuser) because he was there and did nothing or is he guilty of failing to protect?

I believe right now (could change my mind as information changes) that EB was a good father who sadly got involved with an evil woman and drugs.

sorry for the rambling hope at least some of that makes sense.

 

[impatientredhead]

It's also a work site. Could have been a hit(s) from a injury(ies) that occurred to a worker(s).

The scent signature for blood that spilled from a live human has a different signature than a human body that has decomposed.

Blood that has spilled and dried does, while it certainly has a scent dogs can hit on, is vastly different than the fluids and gases that leave a body that has gone through organ breakdown.

Just like a dog that could not tell the difference between decomposing humans versus deer/squirrels/elk/bear/possum would be utterly useless in the woods, a cadaver dog that hits on blood that left a live body (a different skill) would be useless in searching a house where ALL of us have blood in the bathroom from various nicks, scrapes and cycles or on a hiking trail where many a person has scraped a knee, cut themselves etc....

So yes a blood searching dog might hit on a woodchipper that someone had a serious accident near, a cadaver should only hit on one if a dead person (dead for an hour at least) went through or something that was in direct contact with a dead person went through.

Hopefully that wasn't completely circular in thought.
I know what I am trying to say and think there was a much more succinct way to state it, but I don't think my edit feature is fully engaged in the brain today.

 

[samsmom]

I think it's a mistake to think of EB as being some sort of monster, less than human. It underestimates the negative potential we each of us have within ourselves. That we do not go down the particular road we feel that she has trod is not only a matter of choice on our part, but also a matter of circumstance, and of fate - though it frightens us to recognize it as such; which, I think, is the real reason for our wishing her to be made of stuff other than that of which we are also made.

Prayers for Zahra. Prayers for us all.

Excellent point. I've read many many posts here that say SB likes the same people, music, etc. Bad people come in all sorts of packages.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I asked the same question.It has phone records and computer stuff.They don't want that out to the public.

Also, we have to remember, NC does not spit out info to the media like some other states (FLORIDA).
Those who have followed Caylee's case may get very annoyed at how all this plays out, just because the public is not normally kept informed of the step by step operations.

After she is found, IMO there will be very little bits come out every now and then, until trial.

This is just my opinion after following cases in NC, FL...
Not knocking NC, just pointing out the differences and lack of the Sunshine Law.

 

[Fyrecat]

Abusers don't start out that way. SM appears to be pretty narcissistic. She would have her 'good' side, and could probably be very charming, kind, wonderful, loving, etc. I'm sure she had some qualities that charmed both he and the child.
Power and control are what fuel abusers, and if she was truly narcissistic, she probably put people up on pedestals, and when they fell, they fell hard. She might have liked Zahra, so long as Zahra 'played by her rules'. As the child showed she was more of an individual, she might have begun to sour on her, til she was taking everything out on the child.

Dad might have been charmed too, and I believe he might have endured abuse, either physical, mental, emotional, etc at hands of SM. Abuse has cycles, and he wouldn't always be abused, either. Men can and are abused...I just had a case with one recently. The thing is, sometimes, after a person has been abused so they begin to 'idenitfy' with the abuser. Its sometihng they do subconciously in order to survive, (think how hostages sometimes have this happen).

This could be combined with dads work. He stays away as much as he can from the house, to make more money, but really because it's his only escape. He may not want to know what's happening, and may deny it. I think, if it were too late, (child was murdered by SM), SM would tell dad it was his fault, because of something he'd done, and if he didn't help her, she would make sure the police knew it was him....something along those lines.

This is just my opinion, and just a thought.

That may just make him irresponsible not brainwashed. I don't think he could be brainwashed before he came to the states maybe he was infatuated with this woman and came here for himself not caring about poor Zahra.

 

[darnudes]

Does anyone think it's possible that Zahra might have somehow managed to "run away" from her parents?

I know, it's wishful thinking, and not likely, given her hearing aid devices were left at home.

Wouldn't that be wonderful if she ran away and was hiding somewhere - if only.

 

[nobodyspecial]

The scent signature for blood that spilled from a live human has a different signature than a human body that has decomposed.

Blood that has spilled and dried does, while it certainly has a scent dogs can hit on, is vastly different than the fluids and gases that leave a body that has gone through organ breakdown.

Just like a dog that could not tell the difference between decomposing humans versus deer/squirrels/elk/bear/possum would be utterly useless in the woods, a cadaver dog that hits on blood that left a live body (a different skill) would be useless in searching a house where ALL of us have blood in the bathroom from various nicks, scrapes and cycles or on a hiking trail where many a person has scraped a knee, cut themselves etc....

So yes a blood searching dog might hit on a woodchipper that someone had a serious accident near, a cadaver should only hit on one if a dead person (dead for an hour at least) went through or something that was in direct contact with a dead person went through.

Hopefully that wasn't completely circular in thought.
I know what I am trying to say and think there was a much more succinct way to state it, but I don't think my edit feature is fully engaged in the brain today.

But what about entire limbs? Would that leave enough tissue to decomp and leave cadaverine? It's not a probable scenario, because a chipper that size would pull the whole person in, but it *is* possible. Just wondering if that amount of tissue would be enough...

Ugh, it sort of makes sense in my head, but that's becoming mush...

 

[JoeFromLB]

Four different residences in Caldwell County??

They sure seemed to move around a lot. What's that all about?

 

[big4dropout]

Spanking is not considered abuse in NC. My dad used to joke that when he'd spank us in public in Washington, people would look at him in horror, but when we moved here and he did it, people would nod and give him the thumbs up. ::eye roll::

Someone mentioned the DA earlier. Our DA has a lot at stake right now. He very narrowly won the republican nod, and there is a lot of scandal surrounding his past actions while in office. Putting my political leanings aside, I will say that this could be a very good thing because it means with this case in the limelight, he will be pressured to see this thing through and make sure someone is prosecuted (hopefully the right someone(s)).

 

[impatientredhead]

I don't think he is brainwashed but he is stuck- humans often put blinders on so they don't have to acknowledge the bad- he may have been afraid he would loose Zahra to the state, be sent back to Aust., turned in for drugs any number of things (ever known a guy who had a girlfriend convince him she was pregnant with his baby when common sense and logic all point to the fact she is a lying vixen?)

From all accounts AB was a good and loving father until he met EM-

He clearly knew his daughter wasn't being treated right by his wife, but we have yet to hear anyone say he beat his daughter.

EB lied about how she hurt her hand to prevent AB from knowing she hit Zahra which leads me to believe he had no idea the extent

The definition of abuse verses discipline is pretty abstract- did what EB see fit in his idea of discipline?

What is the NC law on spanking? What is considered abuse in NC

WA has a law "homicide by abuse" which was put in place because of a little boy who fell through the cracks "Eli Creekmore" the law covers long term abuse, systematic abuse and torture- part of that law also says anyone who participates in actively disciplining a child is an accomplice even if they did not abuse the child- (for instance a mother and child are staying with you and you put that child in the corner, then later down the line the child is killed by it's mother- the letter of the law says that you too can be charged with Homicide by abuse.)

Long and short of all that is does the law in NC say the father is an accomplice in the abuse (with the same culpability as the actual abuser) because he was there and did nothing or is he guilty of failing to protect?

I believe right now (could change my mind as information changes) that EB was a good father who sadly got involved with an evil woman and drugs.

sorry for the rambling hope at least some of that makes sense.

The reports I have seen say her grandmother was a loving caretaker who took excellent care of her. I have seen lots of statements saying SM was abusive and quick to anger, and several neighbors who say they never saw Zahra and Dad never mentioned her.

I guess I am missing all this statements about Dad's involvement, adoration of his daughter, or his great care of her. Maybe I am missing something but it seems like people want to make it seem like all was great for Z until the SM, and SM singlehandedly changed that course.

I don't see that at all.
Standing by and watching your child (that you supposedly use to be a excellent parent to) be tortured and killed by someone and then be part of the cover up (at a minimum and I am not sure I will even go that far in the benefit of the doubt) is such a betrayal and so beyond excuse. I don't see him as a victim of anything and I don't see a major character change.

But I am sure I project my own life experiences on to the roles these people play and I am not likely to give the benefit of the doubt to one parent and blame the other in a longterm abuse situation. That is a family dynamic and everyone plays there part and to me responsibility is equal at best and possibly more slanted towards the one that wasn't so out of control that they were inflicting the pain.

Bystanding is even grosser to me.

moo

 

[Kamille]

It's my impression she was the dominate partner in their relationship. Going by what her family and friends have stated in the media and on social networking sites, I have seen lots of comments about her anger/temper and not that much about Adam. Obviously I don't know but it seems to me this could be the case.
I don't know many men that would move their seriously ill (albeit in remission) child to a foreign country when there own has some of the best free medical facilities in the world. Remember he moved to America, she didn't move to Australia, must be a reason for that.

From what I understand, she did move to Australia for a short time. They were married there and that last social networking site that I posted had her as living in Giru where Adam and Zahra lived. So did she move into his parent's home for a while when she went to Oz? And was she happy about whatever arrangement was going on? I cannot imagine that a woman, who seems to be rather controlling, would enjoy living in her new husband's parent's home. She would not have had any control there.

So maybe the plan initially was for her to move there and she convinced him that she was unhappy and wanted to move back to the states and he made the decision to come back with her?

MOO

 

[essies]

I don't think it's cold. And I don't think they are blindly searching....they are getting info from somewhere.

I don't think so either!!
Do we know how the fire stated in the backyard? Was it started by gas?
Were both cars dowsed with gas or just one?
The ransom note-EB admits she wrote it! What is her reason for that? Why did she write a ransom note about AB's boss and clip it to their gas dowsed car?
Why did she come screaming out to AB that Zahra was gone instead of looking in the neighborhood-why jump to that assumption?
They had a plan-details poorly worked out. Maybe their plans were interrupted by the fire?
Is she going to turn on AB and say he is the mastermind? I think it is inevitable that they will turn on each other!
I feel myself just rambling cause I have questions I want these monsters to answer!!:furious:

 

[Savmom]

Four different residences in Caldwell County??

They sure seemed to move around a lot. What's that all about?

Growing up with druggie/abusive parents, I can say from my experience "moving is the only way to keep the cops at bay" was our motto.

Whenever there was any hint the cops may be "onto us" we moved within a matter of days (sometimes hours).

Poor little Zahra, so much misery & pain experienced in 10 short years. But her smile shows so much determination & hope--what an amazing child!

 

[impatientredhead]

But what about entire limbs? Would that leave enough tissue to decomp and leave cadaverine? It's not a probable scenario, because a chipper that size would pull the whole person in, but it *is* possible. Just wondering if that amount of tissue would be enough...

Ugh, it sort of makes sense in my head, but that's becoming mush...

This is my understanding:

If the limb was decomposing and had developed a decomposing scent (which from the studies we found in the Caylee case that is detectable by a cadaver dog in approximately a ninety minute window) then a cadaver dog should find that scent.

But if the limb was ripped from a live human and then finely shredded and dispersed you have a different type of breakdown more in keeping with the blood that would be in your kitchen sink if you cut yourself. It does not have the rest of the cellular structure to break down with.

I think the difference is that the tissue would have been live when it went through versus being the limb of a dead person. Does that make sense?

 

[westsidefox64]

If they only used blood sniffing dogs, it's definitely possible.

Cadaver dogs wouldn't hit on anything but the smell of human remains (cadaverine), though.

I love WS I learn so much :dance: I always assumed that blood was one of the things a cadaver dog would hit on. So there has to be some sort of tissue? and how would it differenciate between a dead body and say just a severed finger? Hope this isnt a stupid question, just trying to wrap my mind around it all. TIA

 

[bellyup]

I guess I am missing all this statements about Dad's involvement, adoration of his daughter, or his great care of her. Maybe I am missing something but it seems like people want to make it seem like all was great for Z until the SM, and SM singlehandedly changed that course.
moo

KB, Adam's mom, has stated he adored her and would never hurt her. As well that it was a difficult time dealing with the cancer, but that AB and Zhara were "close" (or something to that effect) .
EB's family has more or less taken AB's side in the whole matter and while they are openly bashing EB (their family member) I haven't seen them say anything bad about AB.
Several of EB's family have made claims that EB was jealous of AB's involvement with Zhara.