GUILTY Netherlands - Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 #4

[ZaZara]

A military plane will land at Eindhoven airport on Thursday evening carrying personal belongings of the victims of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash in Ukraine.

The belongings, which include photo albums, jewellery, cameras, diaries and passports, were collected by the team of investigators who were at the site from last Friday until the mission was broken off on Wednesday evening.

Also on the plane are items from a train carriage in the Ukraine town of Torez and belongings found by locals and handed to investigators on Wednesday.

The personal belongings will be handed over to the police for further investigation, the Telegraaf reports.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...ffects_of_mh17_retur.php#sthash.KMlZNOIX.dpuf

Hi SouthAussie,

Yes, they are coming back and the plane with belongings of the victims has already landed. Jewelry, who would have thought?
The teams are returning too, but they keep preparing for their return to Ukraine.

RTLNieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/missie-oekraine-hopelijk-voor-de-winter-klaar

'Mission Ukraine hopefully finished before winter'

Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, leader of the Repatriation Mission, hopes that the experts can return to the area in the near future to continue their work. He wants to be ready with the search before the winter.

When the experts will be able to continue with the Repatriation Mission that was halted yesterday for safety reasons, Aalbersberg could not say. "We are ready to return to the location of the crash on the shortest possible notice as soon as the search can proceed safely ."
An investigation in winter is a lot harder, so he hopes that they will have searched the area by then. "It is -25 degrees in Eastern Ukraine. That's a very different situation."

The past two weeks, Aalbersberg led the team of forensic experts and military police who identified remains and personal belongings of victims and returned them to The Netherlands.

BBM

 

[ZaZara]

Interesting that the UK will be performing a post mortem on Liam Sweeney when his body is returned to England soon. I guess many countries may do that to ensure that the identification is correct? Or perhaps it is part of certain countries laws when there has been a death overseas?





http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/body-mh17-victim-liam-sweeney-3996571#.U-QFTfmSweg

I think it is a legal thing.
The identifications in Hilversum are done according to international standards.
These are identifications and not post mortem investigations into the cause of death.

 

[SouthAussie]

A failure to find human remains that might account for an estimated 80 bodies thought to still be missing after the downing of MH17 has revived informed speculation in Canberra that a significant number of the victims might never be accounted for.

"It's a reality we'll have to deal with sometime," Fairfax Media was told. "I hope we have accounted for a big number, but the fact is that the fuselage was consumed by fire . . . and you know what that can do to the human body."

Prime ministerial envoy Angus Houston has side-stepped questions on the body count … (he) argued that Canberra would await the conclusion of the DVI [disaster victim identification] process being conducted in the Netherlands ….

He said: "Okay – we came up against all kinds of difficulty and obstruction, but in the main I'm confident that we recovered most of the remains.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-an...possessions-20140808-3dbz8.html#ixzz39lH4HaDt

 

[SouthAussie]

Asked about maps used by the searchers that were covered in yellow dots, Marshal Houston said the maps had been produced using satellite imagery of where the aircraft debris had scattered – the more yellow dots, the more concentrated the debris.

"The whole area was imaged with high-tech sensors, the latest technology which helps you to find things you might not find with a traditional search and a lot of this was produced by satellite.

"I don't want to discuss the detail, but those yellow dots were a part of the picture."

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-an...possessions-20140808-3dbz8.html#ixzz39lFzTIvL

 

[ZaZara]

A failure to find human remains that might account for an estimated 80 bodies thought to still be missing after the downing of MH17 has revived informed speculation in Canberra that a significant number of the victims might never be accounted for.

"It's a reality we'll have to deal with sometime," Fairfax Media was told. "I hope we have accounted for a big number, but the fact is that the fuselage was consumed by fire . . . and you know what that can do to the human body."

Prime ministerial envoy Angus Houston has side-stepped questions on the body count … (he) argued that Canberra would await the conclusion of the DVI [disaster victim identification] process being conducted in the Netherlands ….

He said: "Okay – we came up against all kinds of difficulty and obstruction, but in the main I'm confident that we recovered most of the remains.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-an...possessions-20140808-3dbz8.html#ixzz39lH4HaDt

I have read before about this number of 80 bodies alledgedly missing , and I wonder, where does this number come from?

It has been repeated over and over that one coffin is not one body.
Depending on the state the remains were in, there may have been more bodies or what was left of them in a coffin.
The process of identification is ongoing, so time will hopefully tell all.
It must be terrible for the families having to wait so long, but every day they are one day nearer to an identification.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-an...possessions-20140808-3dbz8.html#ixzz39nVuau9C

(...) The areas in which the Australian-Dutch investigative team had expected to find many body parts revealed only small remains, leaving the Australians surprised by the thoroughness of the initial Ukrainian recovery operation – "but we don't consider the search complete".

However, he insisted that this new understanding of the local reaction to the crash did not negate the need for the Australians and Dutch to have searched the site.

"We have removed many body parts and we had to make sure that we had as many as we could find. There was one area near the chicken farm [which became a base for the Australian-Dutch search in the immediate vicinity of Grabovka], which had not been previously searched, and we found a lot of remains there.

"It was vitally important for the families [of the dead] that we went in to do this work. There were numerous reports of human remains on the ground, so it was essential that we go in – but we didn't find any big body parts."

 

[ZaZara]

21 NEW IDENTIFICATIONS

Jaap Jansen, reporter for BNR, ‏@JaapJansen 9 min.

21 nieuw geidentificeerden: 16 uit NL (1 tevens Brits), Maleisië (2), Duitsland (1), Canada (1) en Groot-Brittannië (1) #BNR

Translation:

21 new identifications: 16 Dutch (1 British as well), Malaysia (2), Germany (1), Canada (1) and Great Britain (1)

BBM

 

[SouthAussie]

I have read before about this number of 80 bodies alledgedly missing , and I wonder, where does this number come from?

Yes, I don't know. But it keeps getting brought up here, despite the repeated statements (and obvious conclusion) that one coffin does not necessarily mean one body.

I have wondered sometimes if they know which part of the plane was badly burned up, and they know who was sitting in that part of the plane, and that there may have been Aussies in that area of the plane. I notice that we are the only country (that I have seen/read) that keeps worrying about this. Even our Prime Minister said it at one point.

Maybe we are just worrywarts in this matter ... we don't usually fuss and fret this much.

.

 

[ZaZara]

Yes, I don't know. But it keeps getting brought up here, despite the repeated statements (and obvious conclusion) that one coffin does not necessarily mean one body.

I have wondered sometimes if they know which part of the plane was badly burned up, and they know who was sitting in that part of the plane, and that there may have been Aussies in that area of the plane. I notice that we are the only country (that I have seen/read) that keeps worrying about this. Even our Prime Minister said it at one point.

Maybe we are just worrywarts in this matter ... we don't usually fuss and fret this much.

.

BBM


The answer to that is: Yes they do.

I recall seeing a map of the plane with who was seated where, and there are images of the spot where the missile hit, or hit hardest.
If I am not mistaken, this was the part near the wings.
Combing both images will give you an idea of who was burned badly and who was swept "whole" out of the exploding aircraft.

Here's some sad info about the Australians:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...994776185?nk=09180b70d3ac195e45b4d4e938a08d67

 

[ZaZara]

650 DNA SAMPLES HANDED TO DUTCH FORENSIC INSTITUTE

http://nos.nl/artikel/684216-650-dnastalen-mh17-naar-nfi.html


Translation:


The experts who identify the victims of the plane crash in Eastern Ukraine in the Korporaal Van Oudheusden Kazerne, Hilversum, have sent 650 DNA samples to the Dutch Forensic Institute. The identification will take some time, according to Arie de Bruijn of the National Forensic Investigation Team in a press conference.

The 228 coffins that have been brought from Eastern Ukraine to the Netherlands, contained 176 more or less complete bodies according to the forensic experts.

In addition, there were 527 body parts in the coffins. It is not known from how many of victims they originate. "The worst case is that this is one person, in the best case these are all 122 other victims."


In recent days the teeth and fingerprints of the victims have been charted. Currently, DNA profiles are being created. Of the 23 victims that have been identified so far, this happened 21 times on the basis of the set of teeth and twice by a fingerprint.

Personal belongings that were found in the disaster area are also being brought to Hilversum. The experts in the Kazerne will ensure that the property be returned to the families.

De Bruijn and his colleagues are satisfied with the process so far. It's tough, but it is going well. The only delay which they endured was because the researchers must wear protective clothes because the remains had been treated with high concentrations of formalin. That makes it difficult to communicate.

Most foreign teams have left now. Monday, the investigators held a ceremony on the grounds of the barracks. For the team of De Bruijn, a quieter phase begins.

BBM

 

[geevee]

Early on there were quite a few reports that the rebels had taken away several (30-50?) bodies, does anyone know if that was verified and if so, what happened to them?

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @dailystarnews - 17m

Air-to-air missile unlikely to used in #MH17 crash, says #Malaysia Defence Minister http://t.co/DbshMFWQja

http://t.co/RJIjQmBkqB

http://twitter.com/dailystarnews/status/497998457043697664

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @CBCNews (Verified Twitter Feed) - 7h

Remains of Canadian #MH17 victim Andrei Anghel ID'd http://t.co/fAJ25dCekm http://t.co/9gefNMZJAl

http://twitter.com/CBCNews/status/498057509849296896

:rose:

 

[ZaZara]

Early on there were quite a few reports that the rebels had taken away several (30-50?) bodies, does anyone know if that was verified and if so, what happened to them?

I think it was One Of Those Accusations..... hasn't been mentioned recently.
On the contrary, the tone is that the people of the region may indeed have collected more bodies than expected.

We'll only know when the last identification has been made.

 

[Intermezzo]

A thanks to the hard work being done by the Dutch led forensic team

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/n...alaysia+flight+identified/10101462/story.html AUG 7

Remains of 24-year-old Canadian on doomed Malaysia flight identified

AMSTERDAM — A Dutch-led forensic team says it has identified the remains of 23 victims aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, including a 24-year-old medical student from Ontario.

The head of the Dutch forensic team says the bodies of about 176 people are "more or less" intact, and they are trying to identify the remaining victims from 527 sets of partial remains.

 

[ZaZara]

65 VICTIMS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED, UP FROM 23

RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/65-slachtoffers-vliegramp-mh17-geidentificeerd

Translation:


65 Victims of the plane crash with the MH17 have been identified. Yesterday the number of victims whose identity was established stood at 23.

The Department of Security and Justice has made this known. The 42 new victims are 21 Dutchmen and 21 persons from other countries. On request of the embassies of the countries involved, the Department will not say which those countries are.

In the plane crash in Eastern Ukraine 298 people were killed. 196 Victims have Dutch nationality.

 

[ZaZara]

FACTSHEET REPATRIATION MISSION MH17


RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/factsheet-repatrieringsmissie-mh17


Factsheet Repatriation Mission MH17

The Dutch Police has responedd to the investigation of RTL News with the following fact sheet.

The core of mission: to salvage as many human remains and personal belongings and bring them back to The Netherlands.

Preparation of the mission:
The search area for the mission covers about 60 square kilometers. Before the work in the search area began, various scenarios have been developed. A prioritization of the search area was established and the entire search area has been mapped. These priorities were based on a thorough analysis by Dutch and Australian specialists, in which all useful and available knowledge, expertise and resources were used, including satellite imagery and Geographic Information System (GIS).

Several hotspots have been identified, and the difficult and / or limited accessibility because of terrain structure and safety has been taken into consideration in the strategy. The findings of daily explorations were added to the overall picture and were also significant for the search plan the next day.


Implementation of the mission:
1 t / m Aug 6, a daily search was carried out and the customized search strategy was followed. Biggest limiting factors were the security situation and the limited ability to gain access to the search area
In total, searches were carried out for more than 20 hours during six days.

Not all areas have been searched because at times we were denied access or the security risks were deemed too great. In addition, some areas were burned.

Previously about 800 Ukrainians have salvaged remains and personal belongings. These were rescuers who are usually deployed in case of local disasters and incidents under the direction of a physician - colonel.

Our specific attention was focused on areas we thought were not good enough or not searched at all by Ukrainians. We considered it likely that still something was to be found there. The attached map shows which areas we have searched.
Local sources confirmed that in inaccessible areas or areas where we were not allowed, remains and possessions were previously secured by them This has been done with more professionalism and more care than was first estimated.

When an object was found by us, it was marked and protected in accordance with established procedures. Securing personal belongings was done on the basis of forensic standards and assessment whether personal belongings were of significance for identification or of emotional value to the bereaved. Thus, for example, plush toys were included whereas magazines were not.


During the search period human remains and personal belongings were found. No whole bodies were located.
Sniffer dogs were deployed. In places where previously remains had been recovered by the local population, nothing more was found.
In the areas searched, personal belongings and luggage were found that had been opened. From these, goods were taken by persons unknown

Luggage and cargo from the wagon in Torez seemed unharmed. As were most items that were returned by Ukrainians.
In the North West cluster no investigations were done because it was too dangerous. It is unlikely that human remains will be found there given the location of previously found bodies and expert insights.

The locals were very helpful. On Aug. 6, the locals were urged with flyers to transfer personal belongings and share information. As a result, some goods have been handed over. The team that remains in Kharkiv will arrange for the return of these possessions to The Netherlands.

The forensic and disaster identification experts from the international team who have conducted research on the site, think it is unlikely that, based on their experiences, bigger mortal remains are left to be discovered. If needed, DNA traces may still be secured after longer periods of time.


Current state of affairs:
The search has been stopped, but is not yet completed. A small team is left behind, and as soon as the security situation permits, we can go back to resume work ASAP.


BBM

 

[ZaZara]

satellite imagers of entire crash site > 60 km2




entire colored area was searchecd by Ukranians
green area: searched by international team
red area: access denied
orange area: unsafe
yellow dots: strikes on earth's surface


RTL-Nieuws has published a huge interactive map of the entire crash site.

The map was made with high quality satellite pictures taken on July 16, the day before the crash, and on July 26.

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/groot-deel-rampgebied-niet-onderzocht-door-missie

Translation:


The high-quality satellite images of the American company DigitalGlobe, have been studied up to the square centimeter by the Dutch company NEO.

If you compare the satellite images before and after the crash, there are at least 1040 visible differences. Differences that can not be explained by causes other than the crash. Clear debris in fields or pastures, but also a trace of presumably smaller parts. "They are also scattered throughout the area. Actually in a sickle-shaped pattern over the area and I think that's only due to the crash, "Corné van der Sande of NEO said.


The analysis of NEO shows a number of other issues. For instances, the work of the farmers in the area continues. Even in fields where debris lie. "Here we see an agricultural field where wheat is grown and at the time of this recording, it is being harvested. We also clearly see a combine harvester drivding in the field. And you see the tracks that combine leaves in an area where potential debris lie," according to Van der Sande.


==============

If you follow the link and click on the picture between the captions "Vergelijk satellietfoto's van voor en na de crash" and "Klik op de kaart om zelf te zoeken" you can search the area in depth.
However, at the time of wrting this, the site is very busy and it takes a long time to load before anything works at all, so I cannot say with certainty what it is all about. (Not enough patience myself)

Human remains or belongings are NOT on the map.

 

[SouthAussie]

AUSTRALIAN family members of the victims of Malaysia Flight MH 17 have had to decide how much of their loved one they will accept to be returned, adding to their acute distress as the identification process drags out.

The relatives of the victims that have been identified have been informed of the identification.

“A team of specialists are working around the clock, but again, it could still take months before each victim has been identified,” the Dutch government said.

“By the end of September, by the end of October we will have a clearer idea’’ said Scotland Yard detective inspector Howard Way, a member of the forensic team, told News Limited.

“The progress is increasing but significantly we have to inform the families first. It will reach a peak (after the DNA analysis) and then it will slow down.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...rifying-question/story-fnh81p7g-1227018940893

 

[SouthAussie]

One question that has been distressing relatives is whether they will accept only partial remains, or if they will wait an extended time for all of the body parts to be identified.

But most of the next of kin are agreed on one thing: they want the repatriation of all the bodies from the one family killed to stay together and be brought back at the same time.
Inspector Way said these were very difficult decisions.

“It is a choice for the family,’’ he said.

“If the remains are incomplete they can wait until the end or they can take the remains as they are and then when others are discovered we will repatriate and reunite those remains. The families can also wait until all members are identified and they can be released at the same time.’’

In The Netherlands there has been an outcry after grieving families have been told not to open the caskets when the bodies are returned to them.

The police liaison officials attached to the families have come under attack for making the suggestion sound like a formal directive. But Mr de Bruijn insisted the families were not under any such order.

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe...rifying-question/story-fnh81p7g-1227018940893

 

[SouthAussie]

Meanwhile, the last of the Dutch, Australian and Malaysian investigators were returning to The Netherlands, national news agency ANP reported.

The final flight of returning police investigators was expected to land at the southern city of Eindhoven late on Saturday night.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-...-victims-identified.html#sthash.QXFKnuvB.dpuf