New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

[dovebar]

Certainly seems possible.

Why would SP risk entering the home and being seen by neighbors when JP could just deliver Susan to him somewhere?

I too think it's possible that he could have kept Susan somewhere for some time.

Anything's possible with these two. A telling thing, though, seems to be that both SP and JP did seem rattled when cops began searching that particular portion of desert.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Interesting thought! *She would have to beg him for sex, though, but it is still possible.

When I read that statement that little Charlie said, I got scared and thought JP was planning to get rid of Braden! *Maybe he was having less luck conforming Braden as he was Charlie and Braden seemed to be still affectionate with teachers, etc. *Maybe JP was preparing Charlie for Braden being gone. *Then when he heard they both loved their grandparents very much, he decided they both needed to go. *This was was extremely demented. *Some of them are able to appear somewhat normal in society, but they turn out to be completely insane.

A couple of thoughts here on this subject about the boys as well as the computer activity in this case as well.. Beginning with the above disturbing details newly learned about Charlie's behaviors he was displaying in school/daycare.. I cannot express enough how I deeply feel as tho JP literally had thoughts and even possibly plans at some point to lose the baggage he felt Braden was in terms of non-compliance, especially concerning any of the knowledge or memory Braden potentially had regarding Susan.. Tho, with his being so young I believe in reality he could have very little actual true memory of anything that occurred that night with Susan.. But not only could Josh not be certain of that I'm certain too that it's possible the boys at some point may have talked to one another about it, tho nothing in depth, and altogether possible that they didn't .. However again I stress that Josh Powell had no way of being certain exactly what the boys knew or remembered therefor with Braden not being as easily submissive to Josh I absolutely believe there likely were times that he possibly contemplated having to rid himself of Braden.. IMO what makes it more certain in my mind is the fact that there had actually been discussion from Josh to Charlie speaking that it would be just he and dad, brother Braden dead at the hands of the evil Mormons just like mom..

What further lends credence to these thoughts is the fact that in the 34 page psych PDF released yesterday some may remember in the documented visitations that Braden was openly defiant to Josh and made no issue to completely pull away from dad all together.. In fact totally disconnect from him with no emotion about it.. It was markedly differing from the submissive relationship with Charlie IMO.. And I totally believe that due to the fact that Braden was not as easily controlled by this monster that the monster saw him as a liability possibly causing Josh great difficulties in the future possibly even the weak link that would ultimately bring the monstrous Powell's down!!!

But without a doubt at the point we are now with hindsight a clear 20/20 I haven't a doubt that at some point Joshua Powell had truly in his mind's eye labelled his son, Braden a liability that was possibly worth getting rid of leaving just he and Charlie to carry on the sick Powell legacy.. Jmo, tho..

 

[unique_astrology]

The Sun set just before 5 pm in SLC that day. Don't know if snow had started or was moving in but it was most likely overcast, so no sunshine even before the Sun set. With a pull down winter hat and coat collar turned up, in the dark shortly after 5, what are the chances anybody could positively ID somebody they were not familiar with even if they met them walking in the other direction? No such meeting has been reported that I know of.

But if this scenario or one close to it happened the key would be in proving Steve was there on December 6. Even if something like this transpired and it is proved that Steve was in SLC that day it could probably not be proven that Steve murdered Susan even if her remains are found. Given all that has been discovered regarding him, his obsession with Susan and , and would be discovered to prove Steve was in SLC, could a prosecutor convince a jury to convict him on circumstantial evidence?

 

[dovebar]

Exploring this idea, is SP did not want to be seen on so many security cameras at airports, does it seem he could have put the gasoline cans found in the storage unit into an SUV and driven to Utah without stopping for gas?

This would give him a 4-wheel drive vehicle for disposal of Susan as well as gasoline to burn a body. He could even have hauled a tree in a pot from his backyard or from a nursery to plant over her body.

Later, Josh could go shopping for "camping supplies" in Washington and get sleeping bags and a hatchet. Maybe he planned to kill the social worker and get away with the boys but something changed his mind. Suicide by fire is extremely rare, occurring in at most 1% of cases. Where did he get this idea?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Exploring this idea, is SP did not want to be seen on so many security cameras at airports, does it seem he could have put the gasoline cans found in the storage unit into an SUV and driven to Utah without stopping for gas?

This would give him a 4-wheel drive vehicle for disposal of Susan as well as gasoline to burn a body. He could even have hauled a tree in a pot from his backyard or from a nursery to plant over her body.

Later, Josh could go shopping for "camping supplies" in Washington and get sleeping bags and a hatchet. Maybe he planned to kill the social worker and get away with the boys but something changed his mind. Suicide by fire is extremely rare, occurring in at most 1% of cases. Where did he get this idea?

Didn't he know that the sleeping bags were mentioned in the report? That gave him away, right?

I think it's simple - he was an extremist. He didn't want the Cox's to have the boys and he didn't want to be on the run with the kids either. To his warped mind the only way out was "scorched earth" - literally.

Plus for a Drama King like him, it was a blaze of glory in the face of society.

Sure, it's bizarre but everything about JP was bizarre.

:cow: JMOO

 

[Gozgals]

Didn't he know that the sleeping bags were mentioned in the report? That gave him away, right?

I think it's simple - he was an extremist. He didn't want the Cox's to have the boys and he didn't want to be on the run with the kids either. To his warped mind the only way out was "scorched earth" - literally.

Plus for a Drama King like him, it was a blaze of glory in the face of society.

Sure, it's bizarre but everything about JP was bizarre.

:cow: JMOO

I have pondered this over and over. I am looking much to deep. I have
discussed this at home with someone who does not know the facts
of the case but just heard the basics. I am digging for answers.

My friend came up with the same conclusions as you and I do believe
you are correct in your thoughts and ultimate conclusion. I am looking for
some complex reason for Josh's actions and there is not one. I am viewing
this as a so-called "normal, rational person" and that person is outraged.
It is just simple. He wanted to plot revenge and go out in a blaze of glory.
If he couldn't have the children, they could not. He was just an sob is all
I can believe now, and there is no deeper meaning. Joss wanted to say
FU to the world, the Cox's, etc.

Goz

 

[strawberry]

OMG. I have been out of the country on vacation and am just catching up on here. What on earth happened?!?!?! I need to dig through all these threads, but do I understand correctly: the boys are dead????? Please tell me I read something incorrectly. My head is swimming right now.

Oh Lord Beachy, it's horrible. I'm sure you've caught up by now.

 

[strawberry]

OMG. I have been out of the country on vacation and am just catching up on here. What on earth happened?!?!?! I need to dig through all these threads, but do I understand correctly: the boys are dead????? Please tell me I read something incorrectly. My head is swimming right now.

It was on Superbowl Sunday. The news broke on Twitter and was a trending topic in no time. Start at post 1412 here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149993&page=57

The move over to this thread:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161958"]Josh Powell's House in WA blows up - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[DLT88]

Yes, Josh was a twisted individual and from post #6 http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7612493&postcount=6 in this thread it seems he was passing on what he had been taught. He was probably obsessed with sex as a result of being abused himself and was shaping his son as he had been shaped.

He was not taught love, respect for himself or others, thus had no understanding of how to live it or pass it on to others. This is an example of how the haters, perverts, and incorrigible criminals in the world are shaped. I am not defending, just trying to explain, to make people think, realize. Josh, like all children started out innocent and was turned into a monster by Steve Powell. Some, like Josh, live out the behavior they have learned, others, thankfully, do not.

This entire episode can be traced back to Steve Powell.

It reminds me of something I heard once. A wise man once said we are born with two people inside us -- one that can do good, and one that can do bad. The one that grows depends upon which one we feed.

 

[couggal]

Didn't he know that the sleeping bags were mentioned in the report? That gave him away, right?

I think it's simple - he was an extremist. He didn't want the Cox's to have the boys and he didn't want to be on the run with the kids either. To his warped mind the only way out was "scorched earth" - literally.

Plus for a Drama King like him, it was a blaze of glory in the face of society.

Sure, it's bizarre but everything about JP was bizarre.

:cow: JMOO

I find it interesting that you use the word extremist. I have also been wondering where he got the idea to blow himself up and keep coming back to what's going on in the Middle East with the suicide bombers. Death by fire is so rare I find it interesting he would use that method. I agree with the other sluthers that it was meant to be a big FU.

At first when I heard of the chop wound I assumed the boys were hit by debris during the explosion. When the news of the hatchet broke I just about couln't take it anymore. That pushed me over the top!

 

[sayd]

My opinion only. It sounds convoluted but might have been possible.

Steve Powell was obsessed with Susan Cox as he related to a woman acquaintance numerous times between 2001 and 2009. He had "trophy" underwear of hers he had stolen. He had pictures he had taken of her without her knowledge. He was addicted to . I believe he sexually abused all of his children creating a psychological hold on them which may explain why all except one of them (at the ages of 25, 28, 33, and 34) were living with him in late 2010 according to the Washington State Voter Database.

Susan's disappearance was planned. His daughter said that he and Josh were on the phone more than usual before Susan disappeared. Once it was decided to murder Susan I think the sociopath, Steve Powell, decided he would have his way with her and planned how to do that. When Josh fixed dinner that day, Susan was probably drugged as part of Steve Powell's plan.

To drive from Puyallup to Salt Lake City would take a long day to get there (about 14 hours plus stops for gas, bathroom, and to eat), time to sleep, time to commit his crime, and a day to drive back. Three days. If my theory is correct, he probably flew there and back after commiting his crimes which could have taken as little as one day.

He could have taken the earliest possible flight on Dec 6th, rented a car, rented a room at a motel, ate, slept and driven close to Josh and Susan's home by 5 pm, walked to the house in the dark (after 5 when Josh left), entered through a door left unlocked by Josh, raped and murdered Susan (he may have taken a trophy after, if so it might unknowingly be in the possession of LE), returned to his car and driven to the airport to fly back to Washington. Josh was probably told how and where to dispose of Susan's body when Steve laid out his plan to him. After hiding Susan's body, Josh could have taken the kids and stayed in the motel room Steve had rented for the rest of the night. Josh would have had a very long day behind him and probably needed sleep. Josh would not be on record as having rented a room and the children would not have seen Steve.

If this theory of events is close to correct it might be possible to ascertain Steve's whereabouts on Dec 6, 2009. Check passenger lists from Seattle to Salt Lake City for the 6th and 7th, checking for round trip ticket purchases. How many males made that particular round trip then? The list might be very short. Find all of them and get a visual by LE. That would be the best chance of discovering the name of a passenger who cannot be unacounted for. Check car rentals from the SLC airport for Dec 6. Show Steve's picture to the motel clerk on duty where the woman believes she saw Josh and the children the morning of the 7th. Lunch was possibly eaten in SLC, but where?

With so much time having passed chances of anybody recognizing Steve or remembering the date if they do are probably slim but every possibility should be checked. If there is recognition, the date(s) to check records are few.

If I am right, Susan's killer is still alive but he is in custody and there is time to check into the what I have posed. I am not a sleuther so my theory may have many holes that can be pointed out but perhaps somebody with experience in sleuthing can patch this into a possible theory.

I actually don't think this sounds all that convoluted, and I think it fits with what I have always thought.

I'd also be curious to know if SP really was at work that day or if it was just emails that show he was. Easy to send emails from anywhere.

If you are correct, then wouldn't that mean that JP used the rental car to dispose of Susan's body, not the van? You know, the rental car with the trunk.

 

[RT51]

Everytime I open the home page of this site, I am always drawn as to how Charlie looks like Josh but Braden resembles Susan, including personality.

I wonder if that is why Charlie said it was just him and his Dad.

 

[hollyblue]

If Steve left Susan in the bedroom, the boys would probably not have seen her when they returned at about 8:30. Josh would have put them to bed and proceeded to clean up any signs of a struggle (if there was one), put Susan into the trunk, load any gear needed to support his claim of a camping trip into the trunk, and possibly (using an untraceable cell phone) communicated with Steve (also using an untraceable phone) to let him know that he was ready to hide Susan. The boys might not have known Susan was in the trunk until Josh had to take her out to hide her.

Susan may have not been drugged enough to keep her down, gotten up and been on the couch when Steve entered and he may have grabbed her there, or near there if she tried to run, and assaulted her there, accounting for the fans drying a spot on the carpet (body fluids).

Cause of death may have been strangulation or knife wound (thinking of Josh's butcher knife incident and use of a hatchet later and one of the boys owie (S?) remark regarding a woman's chest later) which the boys may have seen when Josh removed Susan from the trunk.

Cadaver dogs did not hit on the van.

 

[NocturnalLady]

SBM

Respectfully, Gitana, I didn't interpret the report that way. In the first report, completed before the psychologist had the chance to view the images from Josh Powell's computer, his recommendation lists several conditions before the possibility of reunification:



To me, that is a pretty high bar to clear. "When he is no longer a subject of investigation" obviously means *if* Josh Powell were cleared; the only other way JP could no longer be a subject of investigation would be if he were convicted and clearly reunification would be impossible at that point.

And then he'd have to do significant work on his personality and parenting deficits.

That all sounds pretty legitimate to me because if Josh Powell were cleared (the matters noted were Susan's disappearance and being implicated in computerised child ), then there really wouldn't be a legal reason to prevent it, as I understand it.

To me, this reads as a polite way of saying "reunification may be possible on a very icy day in hell..."

As to the recommendation in the first report to allow continuing visitation:



Again, this sounds pretty legitimate to me. I am not a lawyer or a psychologist or a judge but when I read "this is predicated on..." that suggests to me that only so long as the three conditions listed were fulfilled could visitation continue. The boys would have to want to see their father, their therapist would have to continue to agree that it was in the boys' best interests and JP would have had to curtail the ranting about the Coxes, Mormons and Jews in front of the boys (which is what the "failure to focus on the boys" refers to earlier in the report).

As I understand the current research, it strongly suggests that children benefit from contact with their family of origin when they are in foster care, either with relatives or with a non-family home.

Visitation would be under supervision at all times and JP was aware of the things the supervisor would be looking for which, if he wanted to regain custody, would tend to suppress the worst of his known behaviour with the boys.

I agree with your reading of the reports. It just makes me wonder all the more why the visits were allowed to continue. Didn't the therapist continue to note that Josh was unable to stop his inappropriate ranting - even right there in front of her where he must have known it would be reported. It was also reported that one of the children (I forget which) had stated on that last day that he didn't want to go see his father but the Coxes convinced him to go because they were afraid they would get in trouble with the court. Why weren't they confident that if the children said no then that would be backed up by the court? I'm not coming down on them - I think that there is someone somewhere who should have made them aware of the children's rights as outlined by this report. Maybe their lawyer??

 

[NocturnalLady]

Ah. I see. Only 8 people, not Josh. Yes the judge.

That doesn't make my mood any better.

And if you show Josh's attny the pix ... I submit that you've shown Josh the pix.

Just sayin'

Not to mention that he clearly already knew what the pictures were and what would be found on his computer. After all he put them there!

 

[jjenny]

He was clearly raising these kids to be a copy of himself and grandpa.

 

[hollyblue]

Yes. However, it's offensive to say that because it happened in Utah, the "why" is that Utah is Mormon - which is what was said upthread.

That's like having a Jewish family, in Israel, murdered by Muslim terrorists.
And having someone say, "why did this happen? You know, JEWS."
I think most - Jewish or not - would find that offensive.
And it's that kind of casual, knee-jerk disparagement of Mormonism that killed Susan and the boys and it has no place here.

Leaving that aside, I am disturbed by comments from the DA that they didn't arrest him because they were looking for what seemed like an airtight or slamdunk case - and they thought they needed a body to do that. Even IF they had tried the case without Susan's body, there is a good chance of conviction; it has happened in many other cases. In a death penalty state, I am betting that he would have taken a plea and coughed up her body. And even if he had walked, there was ample material on his computer to keep him away from the boys because once that was known, the judge ordered a lie detector test and a psychosexual eval as a condition of getting the boys back - and he was never going to pass those. Instead, the DA and/or police let him have 2 years of unfettered access to the kids. It's just baffling.

BBM. Exactly. I meant no offense and never that the issue was OK, but it is what it is. SP hated the religion and anyone who believed in it....so much so that he belonged to a group to expel on it. Doesn't matter if Susan was in UT, CA, AZ or NY.
Susan was also a woman, who dissed him and had control over JP to move to UT. SP is full of psychopathy, imo... and spoon fed it to JP. I believe SP used his perceptions of it to manipulate JP as in nothing was JP's fault due to his shortcomings in the marriage...it was hers because of her beliefs, etc. SP wanted domination over Susan and his son to the point of destroying his son's marriage, doing away with her...whether it was by divorce and having the boys...or her death. SP's where he belongs...and I hope he never gets out. Everything in this case revolved around the issue of CONTROL....even the voyeurism, child and maybe pedophilia. JMO

 

[passionflower]

Post 325
The brother that wears diapers and runs around unclothed can't be to disabled,
because he voted.
The other brother left the house and moved out after he voted in 2010.
Did he marry or just leave?
Wasn't he a politician?
Could JP/SP get 'under the wire of LE' through political friends and that SP worked in a prison? Just wondering out loud.

 

[unique_astrology]

Cadaver dogs did not hit on the van.

How was Susan moved? Could it be she was wounded, dying, but not yet dead when moved? Would dogs pick up their scents if she had only been dead for a few hours?

 

[gwenabob]

Post 325
The brother that wears diapers and runs around unclothed can't be to disabled,
because he voted.
The other brother left the house and moved out after he voted in 2010.
Did he marry or just leave?
Wasn't he a politician?
Could JP/SP get 'under the wire of LE' through political friends and that SP worked in a prison? Just wondering out loud.

I am pretty sure there is no law against mentally ill people voting. It has been reported that he has bi-polar and/or schizophrenia. People with this illness can be pretty lucid and functional on the right meds. He probably just voted however his father told him to anyway.

Michael has aspirations of a political career, and ran a couple unsuccessful bids at the state legislature on the Democratic ticket. He is allegedly in law school now in Minnesota I think.

SP never worked "in a prison." He was simply a salesman who sold furniture products that inmates manufacture. Wouldn't surprise me if he never once set foot in a prison (until his arrest) or met any of the prisoners who made the furniture. I don't know for sure, but suspect based on what we know about SP, that he doesn't really have many friends (who could stand to be around him for more than five minutes?) and probably wasn't especially liked by his co-workers. I remember reading an account by a person he was trying to sell product to who thought he was extremely icky as a salesman and she didn't want to be alone in the same room with him. I doubt he has anybody in high places he could get favors from. JMO.