New IDI book published on JBR and others

[Sophie]

""Almost one year ago, the Ramsey family was eliminated as suspects," Benish says. "This suspect is still at large and the jurisdictions in charge need to combine their efforts to yield resolution." "

I think some forget HOW the R's were eliminated as suspects.

Oh and by WHOM.

>>This suspect is still at large

Bringing him publicly onto the Ramsey radar will help no end in yielding resolution

 

[Sophie]

The publication of this book is annoying on so many levels.

Firstly, the book yet again blames the BPD for the failure to prosecute the case. This is galling because it misses the entire point - that, even if IDI, the Ramseys and the DA were the ones to keep attention on the Ramseys. The former by refusing to co-operate with the police and use their unique ability as JBR's parents to cast the light on JBR's life that might - just possibly - have uncovered a critical lead. Hunter failed by apparently suspending the presumption of innocence and refusing to help with warrants and subpoenas which he should have presumed would exculpate the Ramseys. Lacy failed by clearing the Ramseys on one bit of evidence, implicitly clearing millions of other potential suspects - her take on the DNA could be a conviction-breaker in an otherwise watertight case, even an IDI case.

Secondly, for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the Ramseys being openly identified, without trial, as suspects, there is a deafening silence from Team Ramsey and the RST when another presumably innocent person is identified in print as a possible suspect. s like Tracey and his evangelism about the Ramseys being tried by the media. WTH did he think he was doing to the legion of suspects that were identified in those documentaries? I mean, Mills* at least had the grace to be upset and apologise about the Gigax debacle. How did Tracey make amends? By starting on John Mark Bleeding Karr. You couldn't actually make that up.

*Although he still wanted to use JR as the poster child for maligned innocence in his McCann work.

 

[BBB167893]

The publication of this book is annoying on so many levels.

Firstly, the book yet again blames the BPD for the failure to prosecute the case. This is galling because it misses the entire point - that, even if IDI, the Ramseys and the DA were the ones to keep attention on the Ramseys. The former by refusing to co-operate with the police and use their unique ability as JBR's parents to cast the light on JBR's life that might - just possibly - have uncovered a critical lead. Hunter failed by apparently suspending the presumption of innocence and refusing to help with warrants and subpoenas which he should have presumed would exculpate the Ramseys. Lacy failed by clearing the Ramseys on one bit of evidence, implicitly clearing millions of other potential suspects - her take on the DNA could be a conviction-breaker in an otherwise watertight case, even an IDI case.

Secondly, for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the Ramseys being openly identified, without trial, as suspects, there is a deafening silence from Team Ramsey and the RST when another presumably innocent person is identified in print as a possible suspect. s like Tracey and his evangelism about the Ramseys being tried by the media. WTH did he think he was doing to the legion of suspects that were identified in those documentaries? I mean, Mills* at least had the grace to be upset and apologise about the Gigax debacle. How did Tracey make amends? By starting on John Mark Bleeding Karr. You couldn't actually make that up.

*Although he still wanted to use JR as the poster child for maligned innocence in his McCann work.

:clap::clap:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Why doesn't the DNA simply rule out this 'suspect,' as it did JMK? Does BPD even consider this person to be a suspect?

 

[madeleine]

Don't yell at me now,but I think they eliminated ALL suspects way too easy,not only the R's.
I wouldn't eliminate ANYONE based on dna tests in this case.

 

[BBB167893]

Don't yell at me now,but I think they eliminated ALL suspects way too easy,not only the R's.
I wouldn't eliminate ANYONE based on dna tests in this case.

According to ST's depo, madeleine, during the time when the BPD had the case. NO ONE was ruled out on DNA alone. That's another myth that's been accepted as truth.

 

[madeleine]

That's good to know.

 

[Roy23]

According to ST's depo, madeleine, during the time when the BPD had the case. NO ONE was ruled out on DNA alone. That's another myth that's been accepted as truth.

That was when there was one known area for DNA. The experts explained it away as possible being from an Underwear plant. That has changed now. But here is the RDI biggest problem, they announced what they did to find more DNA. At that point, I would bet big bucks they started testing everything. A lot of information got out about this case that never should have. You can bet they have a helluva lot more now.

 

[BBB167893]

That was when there was one known area for DNA.

I know that. But it is a question that gets asked.

But here is the RDI biggest problem, they announced what they did to find more DNA. At that point, I would bet big bucks they started testing everything. A lot of information got out about this case that never should have. You can bet they have a helluva lot more now.

That's why I'm not a betting man, Roy. Just for reasons like that.

 

[Sophie]

Don't yell at me now,but I think they eliminated ALL suspects way too easy,not only the R's.
I wouldn't eliminate ANYONE based on dna tests in this case.

I agree with both points, Madeleine.

In a way, I don't think any of the books on the case were especially well edited in that all of them suggest that the police were accepting pretty flimsy evidence in clearing people. For example, reading PMPT, you'd be forgiven for thinking that JR was given a pass purely because none of Beth's girlfriends was aware of any sexual abuse in the family. Obviously it wasn't as simple as that, but the book gives that impression. On the other hand, it looks like Santa Bill and his family went to Hades and back before being cleared - yet there are still people on the 'Net who suspect one or both of the McReynolds.

Hopefully this is something that is being reviewed by the Multi-Agency Task Force if only so that there can be no debate about whether people have been improperly cleared.


On the subject of DNA, I know I'm a cure for insomnia on the subject of DNA, but I can't help myself: I feel that strongly about it.
There has been a biggish debate over here on DNA following a couple of high-profile murder convictions being found unsafe on the basis of new DNA evidence. There is talk of all current life sentences being reviewed in the light of new methods for testing DNA. The bloke who essentially invented DNA fingerprinting has`expressed reservations about this and explained that LE and the criminal justice system aren't fully understanding the new science and don't understand the ease with which DNA evidence can be corrupted and innocently transferred. This will actually almost always work in favour of offenders since it will raise reasonable doubt while - on its own - it will never be strong enough evidence to convict anyone. He also expressed the fear that police would lose the ability to detect owing to the legal system's blind faith in science. I would bet the next 30 years of my soccer season ticket money that at least some of the people whose convictions are over-turned in the light of these new methods are actually guilty. DNA, on its own, isn't a fingerprint in blood or a smoking gun.


(Eeeh, I feel better for that rant )

 

[Roy23]

I agree with both points, Madeleine.

In a way, I don't think any of the books on the case were especially well edited in that all of them suggest that the police were accepting pretty flimsy evidence in clearing people. For example, reading PMPT, you'd be forgiven for thinking that JR was given a pass purely because none of Beth's girlfriends was aware of any sexual abuse in the family. Obviously it wasn't as simple as that, but the book gives that impression. On the other hand, it looks like Santa Bill and his family went to Hades and back before being cleared - yet there are still people on the 'Net who suspect one or both of the McReynolds.

Hopefully this is something that is being reviewed by the Multi-Agency Task Force if only so that there can be no debate about whether people have been improperly cleared.


On the subject of DNA, I know I'm a cure for insomnia on the subject of DNA, but I can't help myself: I feel that strongly about it.
There has been a biggish debate over here on DNA following a couple of high-profile murder convictions being found unsafe on the basis of new DNA evidence. There is talk of all current life sentences being reviewed in the light of new methods for testing DNA. The bloke who essentially invented DNA fingerprinting has`expressed reservations about this and explained that LE and the criminal justice system aren't fully understanding the new science and don't understand the ease with which DNA evidence can be corrupted and innocently transferred. This will actually almost always work in favour of offenders since it will raise reasonable doubt while - on its own - it will never be strong enough evidence to convict anyone. He also expressed the fear that police would lose the ability to detect owing to the legal system's blind faith in science. I would bet the next 30 years of my soccer season ticket money that at least some of the people whose convictions are over-turned in the light of these new methods are actually guilty. DNA, on its own, isn't a fingerprint in blood or a smoking gun.


(Eeeh, I feel better that rant )

I think that in a way you are right. This technology cannot always be used effectively. In this case, this is what we know. One source of DNA was inside JBR's panties and it was not skin cells. Years later this new technology was discovered and they single out areas based on the crime and crimescene itself to swing for the fences. They hit paydirt here. And this matches DNA from more typical DNA testing that we are familiar with. So the touch DNA method only re-inforced the original evidence that many scientist before had some issues with. This debunked their issues.

I do understand your concerns, though. I think this technology should only be used on ITS OWN when the killer is unknown to the victim.

 

[Sophie]

I think that in a way you are right. This technology cannot always be used effectively. In this case, this is what we know. One source of DNA was inside JBR's panties and it was not skin cells. Years later this new technology was discovered and they single out areas based on the crime and crimescene itself to swing for the fences. They hit paydirt here. And this matches DNA from more typical DNA testing that we are familiar with. So the touch DNA method only re-inforced the original evidence that many scientist before had some issues with. This debunked their issues.

I do understand your concerns, though. I think this technology should only be used on ITS OWN when the killer is unknown to the victim.

I think an issue, Roy, is that the science is moving on and legal systems haven't kept pace. A great many of the precepts of common law systems were based on the notion of fair play and what was or wasn't cricket - what I'd call the Playing Fields of Eton Legal System. IOW, trying people twice for the same offence a hundred years ago was unfair since it was unlikely that any major new evidence had emerged and the second trial was probably just malicious. Nowadays, a new trial could easily be based on compelling new evidence. But no, the new science can't be used in this way. It can, however, be used to raise sufficient doubt in a 'fair play' legal system, to get acquittal in an otherwise strong case. Times have changed and it isn't just the criminals who should benefit.

 

[Sophie]

http://incoldblogger.blogspot.com/2009/06/jonbenet-ramsey-case-never-give-up.html


This is being discussed on other JBR sites. I hope I haven't missed this already being posted on here. Apologies if I have.

Off-the-point, but I can't stand Singular's books.

 

[DotsEyes]

SBTC

Smyrna (or Southern or Sun) Business Technology Corporation (or College) was a sign on a building located north of Atlanta, on the perimeter in '79, '80 and so on. Atlanta was not such a huge place then and was full of young, well-paid transplants from all over the country. It was not uncommon for social circles to collide at some point and everyone pretty much knew all the players. The business owner was sued over the sign SBTC, because Sun Bank and Trust Corporation claimed that people would mistake the business as being bank affiliated. SBTC was visible from the interstate in huge blue letters running horizontal between 7 and 10 floors up. The owner said he could not afford to spell out the name of his new business and suggested that Sun Bank change it's name. IIRC, SBTC won the right to keep it's sign.

I remember this from living in the area and being associated with members of the business/party social circles. Everyone had an opinion and talked about the issue.

JR needed capital to expand his home tech business. He and PR requested (demanded)that PR's parents give him their life savings, promising huge returns when the business began to profit. They gave him the money only after PR threatened to abort a baby she was not carrying if they refused. They sold their home and moved into a rented house in a north Atlanta suburb and kept a low profile because of the community association prohibition on rental property.

A person I knew lived with the Paugh's in the Atlanta suburbs while she attended art college and paid rent to them. She was the niece of Lucinda R., was married to a Jeff and went by the last name of Paugh which is German and pronounced 'Bourg' and she told me this information. The Paugh's were not enamored of JR, a divorced man with 3 children, one very young, and no future of success in sight. They believed that PR had married a loser, but kept the peace because PR would cut off all communication if they even implied that JR was not the man for her. The Paugh's were not receiving any profits despite the business's growth. The amount they gave was $120K, quite a huge sum for the time, 4 to 5 times the average young professional's yearly earnings. Probably a sum valued at $400-500K today.

A second friend interviewed with JR for an outside sales position. The interview was conducted over lunch and afterwards a tour of the basement operations at his home which he relayed was a temporary situation. The interview turned into a 3 day love fest, Friday night, all of Saturday and into Sunday late afternoon. They planned to get together the next weekend and my friend was smitten. However, he did not answer his phone and did not call her in the following days. She had been dumped abruptly. He lived in a 2 story house on a curved and busy street right over a hill. The house was full of boxes and in disarray when she was there. Then she heard through another friend of ours who had a few one nighters of her own with JR that he had married the weekend after the love fest! She was very confused and went to JR's house to confront him and see if this was indeed true. PR answered the door and the car driver saw JR hiding behind it. My friend asked for JR and was told he wasn't home, but a foyer mirror gave him away. It was childish. My friend advised that she knew JR and that she needed to use the phone because of an an emergency (in fact the car stalled in the R driveway) and that JR told her she could stop by anytime. PR told her that there was no phone as they had just moved in. The driver of the car got out, went to the door, knocked and when PR answered, said "John, we can see you hiding!" The door was slammed shut. My friend walked to a phone booth at the corner service station to call for help, the driver stayed with the stalled car. Finally JE relented and brought out a portable phone (quite new fangled at the time) for the driver to use.

JR was described to me as a skinny-legged guy who wore running shorts, a nerdy-looking fellow with glasses, a beard and overtly Scottish. He was not described as great looking by any means. My friend was Jewish and thought he was charmingly gentile and her crush on him was pretty much based on his nebish persona; he amused her.

JR drove a Corvette which he bought from a used luxury car dealer. He had a specialty plate on the car, letters only. The friend who rescued the stalled car thought the letters stood for Smith-Barney Trading Company, the brokerage firm for which he worked. He asked JR, who came out to the driveway when my friend pulled up in his Corvette - a '78 Silver Anniversary Limited Edition - if he (JR) was a trader on one of the firm's floors. JR responded with disgust saying the letters stood for something to do with the military, although I can not remember the exact words he used. My friend had been in the military and spent 4 years in Vietnam and Cambodia and seemed to recognize the outfit as one that operated under the radar in Cambodia. A fake name for a real operation if you will.

PR never came out of the house. However, in a crazy turn of events, when my stock broker friend went to NY on business, he was being taken to his hotel by one of the firm's limos. Guess who jumped into the limo when it left the Broadway area? That's right, PR and her mother. They all ended up touring the city in the limo until PR missed her flight. It seems that they got drunk during the limo tour and time slipped away. She was terrified of JR's jealous reaction, my friend was worried for her and told her he would call her to check up on her and explain what happened to JR himself if necessary, using the name Raoul. Raoul was the nickname I gave to a big tom cat that sat on my balcony and howled "Raaaaouuuu" all the time. He called PR from my house, JR picked up the phone as PR was crying and telling him that JR was a maniac and had just kicked in a door. The phone went dead. We were both worried that she was being attacked, so I called and said, "Hi my name is , may I speak to Pat?" "What do you want with her?" he screamed. I responded, "I am calling for John." He interrupted and yelled, "I am John! What do you want?!" I said "no I am not calling to speak to you, I am calling to speak to Pat on behalf of John to see if she got home alright after missing her flight. It was partly his fault because he had a free limo and he invited them to tour the city with him after they jumped into the car, mistaking it for a rental limo. All they did was ride around in the limo together and they lost track of time."

He said something like thanks for calling and hung up.

I must add that my friend was awestruck by PR's beauty and that of her mother. He said that she was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen in person, a young Liz Taylor, and was mesmerized by both of them. She was perfectly groomed and made up and her mother looked like an older, but still beautiful version of her. He said they were both glamourous and classy and couldn't believe he was riding around NYC in a limo with this gorgeous woman. Probably a highlight in his life. They thought he was a 'fat cat' because of the private limo - he wasn't but didn't correct their mistake. "Fat Cat" was a very common term in Atlanta to describe those who "made it" on their own but only slurping the cream of the top of the labor of their employees. It was not a term of endearment. If anything else had happened between the 2, he would have told me - we were very good friends, so PR was not unfaithful to JR. She was young, having fun and got carried away.

Like I said, Atlanta was a small place in the late '70's and early '80's before the really big boom happened. IBM and Delta Airlines had recently located home offices there and the airport was still under construction. Money flowed like a river and anyone in the party scene knew, or knew someone who knew, everyone.

I haven't posted any of this before because I assumed that no one would believe the coincidences but we were all students, tending bar and waiting tables in some of the posh Hotlanta spots, so we always had the low down on everyone who was anyone. JR was trying to become a "someone", so he was on the scene being seen a lot. Many of the girls I worked with knew him well; he was a good tipper.

 

[DotsEyes]

By the way, JMK sold luxury used cars to the "fat cats". I remember the used luxury car business. The salesman would deliver the car to show it discretely because it would have been a disgrace for them to buy a used car. Prestige and all that. When my friend drove up in his Corvette, JR thought it was one of these cars being delivered for his consideration and was at first PO'd because there was no reason to trade one used 'Vette for another.

 

[DeeDee249]

DotsEyes- that post sure filled in a lot of gaps for me. Guess we know where the S.B.T.C came from. BTW, it has been mentioned that the military explanation for the letters could have been "Subic Bay Training Center".
JR was stationed there years before.

 

[DotsEyes]

Yes, I know about his involvement in Subic Bay. However, IIRC there was no such place in reality. It did not physically exist.

 

[DotsEyes]

By the way, I do not know if JR was invovled with the SBTC business at all. I do remember that "business technology" was confusing to me. This was way before computers when everyone was still using IBM typewriters, adding machines and carbon paper. I thought it should be business AND technology as if they were mutually exclusive.

Also, IIRC Sun Bank and Trust was a small bank located ENE of Atlanta a bit out of the perimeter and may have been in the business of selling repossesed luxury cars.

PR was a pit bull when it came to JR. She worshipped him and he, her. She was described to me as a very generous and kind person and everyone loved to be around her. She was not a fake and was not impressed with herself at all.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, I know about his involvement in Subic Bay. However, IIRC there was no such place in reality. It did not physically exist.

While Subic Bay Training Center may not exist under that name, Subic Bay does. And there is a military base there.