New member, and a theory

[BOESP]

he could have also been hiding behind Patsy.Patsy writes the RN,Patsy makes the phone call,then JR is in a rush to be seen on CNN,and he seems to hide behind her there,too,letting her do most of the talking,only cutting in when necessary.he's got something to hide,IMO.

Hi JMO - I wonder if John could have let Patsy do the talking at this early stage of events because she knew what happened and he didn't. If he spoke up, he might say something wrong. I don't think their individual stories had gelled yet. The farther away from the event, time wise, the more John did the talking.

 

[Ames]

I think if it had been a real KN,JR would have woke BR up,asked him if he'd saw or heard anything during the night,checked his room for anyone who might still be there..closet,under the bed,etc...kept BR right by his side,and not let him out of his site,at least until LE could get there.he also would have called the White's and asked about him,and would have wanted BR to have a police escort and be under watch by police.
JR also would have organized a search party,searched outside the house,walked around the house,the streets..etc..driven around..since they had told no one to lay low.He also would have used the friends to his advantage in helping get JB back,as they could have helped him search as well.

I totally agree. John may have ran in, turned on Burke's lights..and ran out, just in case Burke was awake. So, BURKE himself could tell the police that his dad checked on him, and make John look less guilty.

 

[JMO8778]

Hi JMO - I wonder if John could have let Patsy do the talking at this early stage of events because she knew what happened and he didn't. If he spoke up, he might say something wrong. I don't think their individual stories had gelled yet. The farther away from the event, time wise, the more John did the talking.

true,but it seems he was all too anxious to appear on CNN,and to be seen at church,etc.,esp. at first..IOW,all too anxious to appear they couldn't have been the type of ppl to have done this.he seemed more worried about it than Patsy was.I see him as hiding something he did wrong..more than just staging ..perhaps sexual abuse,or him being the one to do the staging on JB and cause her to take her final breath.
I think JR would be the most likely one to have set up that sexual staging scenerio,right down to being the one more likely to have known how to tie that knot..could Patsy have thought of all that,esp the sexual part?I think JR was the most likely one.And he may have had more reason to stage it as a sex crime,if he was abusing JB.
Remember Patsy was the theatrical one in the family...she faked the phone call,and I think she pulled off a lot of the emotional part of it while JR worked in the background to cover the physical aspects of it all,IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

I totally agree. John may have ran in, turned on Burke's lights..and ran out, just in case Burke was awake. So, BURKE himself could tell the police that his dad checked on him, and make John look less guilty.

and the way he was on the 911 call as well...he was obv. standing there right beside Patsy,guiding her on it.and the way he snapped at BR...it's not indicative of someone who's had their child kidnapped..he would have been oh so grateful that BR was ok !! and not once did either of them ask him if JB had came and gotten in bed with him anytime during the night.
and they sent him back to bed...let the show begin,and it did.

 

[JMO8778]

I did have another thing to add in response to Dru..it's the fact that JR took a shower that morning,and PR did not...I think he was washing away evidence,while PR only felt the need to redo her makeup.It reeks of less involvement from her in the staging,IMO.

 

[Ames]

and the way he was on the 911 call as well...he was obv. standing there right beside Patsy,guiding her on it.and the way he snapped at BR...it's not indicative of someone who's had their child kidnapped..he would have been oh so grateful that BR was ok !! and not once did either of them ask him if JB had came and gotten in bed with him anytime during the night.
and they sent him back to bed...let the show begin,and it did.

Exactly!! That's why I believe that John is up to his ears in this. I know that some posters think that he was in the dark....I don't THINK so. That 911 call alone proves that he knew what happened to JB. First of all..he didn't even bother to wake Burke up and asked him if he had heard any noises at all, and didn't make him get out of his bedroom, because the intruder could be in his closet, or under his bed. And THEN...as you said...when Burke wakes up...I am sure from John and Patsy panicking....and comes down, they STILL don't ask him any questions, and are apparently not afraid that the intruder may still be lurking around somewhere...because they tell him to go back to bed. What if the intruder had of been lurking behind a corner or something? Not to mention in Burke's bedroom??

 

[Ames]

I did have another thing to add in response to Dru..it's the fact that JR took a shower that morning,and PR did not...I think he was washing away evidence,while PR only felt the need to redo her makeup.It reeks of less involvement from her in the staging,IMO.

When I posted the portion of Patsy's Interview....about the medicine drawers being open (there was TWO of them that were open)...in Patsy's bathroom....on another board, one poster wondered why Patsy acted so confused about them being open, when questioned about it by the interviewer. IF Patsy had of put on her makeup....in that bathroom...and remember, that is the same bathroom where she also said that she had laid her clothes that she had worn to the White's party, in the tub.....then WHY didn't she notice those drawers were open then???? I wish that I can remember which poster posed that question.....because it was a darn good one, one that I had never thought of before. When shown those pictures of the drawers...Patsy says..."I have no idea why those drawers are open like that". She even says it again, after he shows her a picture of something else. She is REAL confused about those drawers. I will see if I can find that portion of the interview.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think both JR and PR came up with the RN, with PR actually writing it. JR's shirt fibers were found in JBR's panties and on her thighs by LE, it's not just speculation. And JR was confronted with this in one of the interviews. Keep in mind that all of these interviews were conducted LONG after the crime, with Team R lawyers blocking any meaningful questioning or not allowing the Rs to answer.
As far as the size 12 panties- PR admits in an interview to buying 2 packages in Bloomingdale's NYC in November. One she said was for JBR, the other for her niece Jenny.
The police report mentions "partially wrapped" presents in the wineceller. That is a misleading description, IMO. They are partially UNWRAPPED. Big difference. As with so many of LE's mistakes, PR ran with it and explained the opened gifts by saying she had not finished her Christmas gift wrapping. I believe this is just another lie, and those packages were opened in a panic in order to find the pair of Bloomies panties that were identical to the ones JBR was wearing (and which were likely bloody). PR and possibly JR were the only ones who knew where those size 12 panties (meant as a gift for her neice Jenny) were. As I said before, WHY was it so important for it to be the Bloomies Wednesday panties? Because someone at the R's may have seen what panties she was wearing, the Rs needed to have it seem like she was taken right from her bedroom. There has also been speculation that if JR was responsible for the sexual assault (resulting in bleeding) he needed to replace the panties with an identical pair to hide the fact from PR.

 

[Dru]

I did have another thing to add in response to Dru..it's the fact that JR took a shower that morning,and PR did not...I think he was washing away evidence,while PR only felt the need to redo her makeup.It reeks of less involvement from her in the staging,IMO.

Excellent point, JMO8778! Nothing JR did that day was without a reason, and that shower is important.:clap:

 

[UKGuy]

I think both JR and PR came up with the RN, with PR actually writing it. JR's shirt fibers were found in JBR's panties and on her thighs by LE, it's not just speculation. And JR was confronted with this in one of the interviews. Keep in mind that all of these interviews were conducted LONG after the crime, with Team R lawyers blocking any meaningful questioning or not allowing the Rs to answer.
As far as the size 12 panties- PR admits in an interview to buying 2 packages in Bloomingdale's NYC in November. One she said was for JBR, the other for her niece Jenny.
The police report mentions "partially wrapped" presents in the wineceller. That is a misleading description, IMO. They are partially UNWRAPPED. Big difference. As with so many of LE's mistakes, PR ran with it and explained the opened gifts by saying she had not finished her Christmas gift wrapping. I believe this is just another lie, and those packages were opened in a panic in order to find the pair of Bloomies panties that were identical to the ones JBR was wearing (and which were likely bloody). PR and possibly JR were the only ones who knew where those size 12 panties (meant as a gift for her neice Jenny) were. As I said before, WHY was it so important for it to be the Bloomies Wednesday panties? Because someone at the R's may have seen what panties she was wearing, the Rs needed to have it seem like she was taken right from her bedroom. There has also been speculation that if JR was responsible for the sexual assault (resulting in bleeding) he needed to replace the panties with an identical pair to hide the fact from PR.

DeeDee249,

The police report mentions "partially wrapped" presents in the wineceller. That is a misleading description, IMO. They are partially UNWRAPPED. Big difference. As with so many of LE's mistakes, PR ran with it and explained the opened gifts by saying she had not finished her Christmas gift wrapping. I believe this is just another lie, and those packages were opened in a panic in order to find the pair of Bloomies panties that were identical to the ones JBR was wearing (and which were likely bloody). PR and possibly JR were the only ones who knew where those size 12 panties (meant as a gift for her neice Jenny) were. As I said before, WHY was it so important for it to be the Bloomies Wednesday panties? Because someone at the R's may have seen what panties she was wearing, the Rs needed to have it seem like she was taken right from her bedroom. There has also been speculation that if JR was responsible for the sexual assault (resulting in bleeding) he needed to replace the panties with an identical pair to hide the fact from PR.

The problem with these assumptions is that Patsy has stated that the size-12's were kept upstairs in JonBenet's bedroom. Then we have the Ramsey's returning remaining said size-12's years later. So who has it wrong here?

Also if the size12's were among the unwrapped xmas gifts and the police found them, considering they matched the pair she was discovered wearing, would this not have been noted, and Patsy asked to comment upon this at one of her interviews?

So if the Ramsey's handed in another set of size-12's to complement a set that the police already had, would this not be a major inconsistency?


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[UKGuy]

UKGuy, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think JonBenet's death was intentional, therefore, I don't think there is an explanation to make for why Patsy, John, or anyone else would do such a purposeful thing and withhold medical care.

Maybe Solace will get a chance to post his/her theories of what happened as I have seen them elsewhere. It fits the injuries and the evidence without any convoluted explanations. It also explains a lot of things that happened afterwards. As I said, the main hold-up in my thought process was understanding the strangulation part and thanks to Solace, it became very clear what happened.

I do appreciate your response and have studied and considered this death for a long time. I'm now satisfied in my mind about what happened, how, and why.

BOESP,
But medical assistance was denied to JonBenet, her killer(s) knew she was alive, they wiped the blood from her thighs, only live people bleed profusely, her skull suffered a severe depressed fracture a head injury so serious its only normally seen in vehicle accidents?

How can JonBenet's death be accidental if someone deliberately applied a ligature to squeeze the life from her body, whilst neglecting to phone ER or 911?

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[BOESP]

BOESP,
But medical assistance was denied to JonBenet, her killer(s) knew she was alive, they wiped the blood from her thighs, only live people bleed profusely, her skull suffered a severe depressed fracture a head injury so serious its only normally seen in vehicle accidents?

How can JonBenet's death be accidental if someone deliberately applied a ligature to squeeze the life from her body, whilst neglecting to phone ER or 911?

.

I think it depends on how one views what happened. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since based on public knowledge, we see the case differently. I have no way of knowing whether the killer knew she was dead or not, especially if the blood was only visible on her interior thighs (which I think is what you are saying).

 

[UKGuy]

I think it depends on how one views what happened. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since based on public knowledge, we see the case differently. I have no way of knowing whether the killer knew she was dead or not, especially if the blood was only visible on her interior thighs (which I think is what you are saying).

BOESP,

The person who sexually assaulted JonBenet causing her vaginal wound, would be in no doubt that JonBenet was alive when she was injured internally, and started to bleed?

Then whomever asphyxiated JonBenet did so in the knowledge that they were taking JonBenet's life, else why bother strangling her?

And if her head injury was accidental which caused mucous to flow from her mouth and/or nostrils, then why was 911 or ER not called?

The conclusion is simple, her killer had multiple points at which to call for medical assistance, this was not done, so her death was intentional and intended to silence her!


.

 

[BOESP]

Sorry UKGuy - our power went off before I finished.

Here's a repeat, with addition:

I think it depends on how one views what happened. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since based on public knowledge, we see the case differently. I have no way of knowing whether the killer knew she was dead or not.

The blood was only visible on her interior thighs (which I think is what you are saying) and I don't know how much blood was there and whether or not it was caused by sores due to severe "diaper rash" bleeding after being harshly cleaned, or something similar.

As you said, her head injury was severe and in my opinion it was severe enough to possibly make JonBenet appear to be dead after, possibly, having a few convulsive movements. If you want to cover that up, you don't call 911.

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry UKGuy - our power went off before I finished.

Here's a repeat, with addition:

I think it depends on how one views what happened. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since based on public knowledge, we see the case differently. I have no way of knowing whether the killer knew she was dead or not.

The blood was only visible on her interior thighs (which I think is what you are saying) and I don't know how much blood was there and whether or not it was caused by sores due to severe "diaper rash" bleeding after being harshly cleaned, or something similar.

As you said, her head injury was severe and in my opinion it was severe enough to possibly make JonBenet appear to be dead after, possibly, having a few convulsive movements. If you want to cover that up, you don't call 911.

BOESP,

Sure only if her head injury came first.


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[Ames]

BOESP,

Sure only if her head injury came first.


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It did.

 

[rashomon]

UKGuy, I think we are on the same page with this and I don't mind being wrong so don't worry about that, please. Ligature strangulation is the manner of death and we agree. In my mind, however, it is critical if we are to use that piece of data to determine something about the killer, whether staged or truly done with the intent to kill, that the method be properly identified. Someone who strangles says something about the killer. Someone who strangles by pulling a knotted rope around a throat is a bit different than someone who uses a a tightening device to strangle (the device being a stick inserted into a rope used to tighten the rope).

Hope that makes sense. Communications on message board is hard work. :waitasec:

By the way, I do think it was staged, for what that's worth and I appreciate your thoughtful response.

Good points, BOESP. Indeed, this so-called 'garrote' was no tourniquet-like strangling device, but only a piece of stick 'mummy-wrapped' by cord. The fixed knot tied around JB's neck also contradicts a garrote scenario.

I believe the stager of the scene first tied a knot around JonBenet's neck and then wrapped the remaining cord around the paintbrush stick to make it look like a bizarre sex crime.

 

[UKGuy]

Good points, BOESP. Indeed, this so-called 'garrote' was no tourniquet-like strangling device, but only a piece of stick 'mummy-wrapped' by cord. The fixed knot tied around JB's neck also contradicts a garrote scenario.

I believe the stager of the scene first tied a knot around JonBenet's neck and then wrapped the remaining cord around the paintbrush stick to make it look like a bizarre sex crime.

rashomon,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why should the garrote be created to add the effect of a bizarre sex crime, but then hide her sexual assault, something does not fit here?


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[BOESP]

<snip>I believe the stager of the scene first tied a knot around JonBenet's neck and then wrapped the remaining cord around the paintbrush stick to make it look like a bizarre sex crime.

Rashomon, that is my take on what happened as well.

Ames, I agree because I think JonBenet was manhandled by her shirt collar (whatever shirt she was wearing), thus leaving the marks on her neck, and that manhandling was in conjunction with a push, shove, or similar action that resulted in a head blow that ultimately killed her.

I had a hard time figuring out a logical sequence of events because of the asphyxiation. A post by another poster on another board was my "light bulb moment" when everything fell into place in my mind. I'd be glad to change my mind if any new evidence is ever given to the public but I don't think that's gonna happen.

It was accidental, unintentional, and sad, sad string of events, in my opinion. I feel sorry for everyone involved.

 

[JMO8778]

When I posted the portion of Patsy's Interview....about the medicine drawers being open (there was TWO of them that were open)...in Patsy's bathroom....on another board, one poster wondered why Patsy acted so confused about them being open, when questioned about it by the interviewer. IF Patsy had of put on her makeup....in that bathroom...and remember, that is the same bathroom where she also said that she had laid her clothes that she had worn to the White's party, in the tub.....then WHY didn't she notice those drawers were open then???? I wish that I can remember which poster posed that question.....because it was a darn good one, one that I had never thought of before. When shown those pictures of the drawers...Patsy says..."I have no idea why those drawers are open like that". She even says it again, after he shows her a picture of something else. She is REAL confused about those drawers. I will see if I can find that portion of the interview.

OK,for some reason I was thinking it was the one in JAR's bedroom,where she stayed when getting the cancer treatments.I didn't know it was the same one.that's interesting,for sure.