New member, and a theory

[JMO8778]

rashomon,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why should the garrote be created to add the effect of a bizarre sex crime, but then hide her sexual assault, something does not fit here?


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can I add a thought here? I know,I'm getting redundant,I've posted it bf ..but according to the RN,they at first were going to get her body out of the house...'you will also be denied her remains for proper buriel' line.I believe the vag. wound was to cover past abuse,and also to make it appear she had been assaulted by a pedo,in case her body was found..put her outside and all the world's a suspect.
OK ...that was the first staging,done in panic mode.After thinking about it,I believe they decided getting her out of the house wouldn't work..so,another partial staging was needed.JR did NOT want to get the blame for that sexual assault,seeing as she would now be found in the house...sooo...I think at that point she was wiped down,redressed and covered w the blanket.
The garrote was already in place and needed to help mask the manual strangulation(not to mention she'd already been strangled with it)..so that stayed.I think her arms were over her head b/c she was originally staged that way...to make it seem a sex crime,with her wrists tied loosely.But by the time they started to restage,she was in rigor and her arms wouldn't move.But...and I think this is important...JR *forgot to retie the ligatures to make it seem she was tightly bound,as in an abduction,not a sexual situation....so that's why he LIED and said they were tied tightly,when in fact they were not.I hope that all makes sense..JMO.

 

[JMO8778]

Excellent point, JMO8778! Nothing JR did that day was without a reason, and that shower is important.:clap:

I also wonder that if JR told her to go find the items used..rope and tape...is it possible that she could have transferred enough fiber evidence at the time she was getting them and taking them to JR,so that even if JR did the garroting and strangulation..the fibers would appear to be entwined in the garotte,so as to appear she did the staging?
I mean,comon' now..this was staged as a sex crime...who would be the most likely to have known how to do that,and how to tie that knot?Patsy didn't sound like the type to go to net porn sites or read info on it..JR,I don't know,but he seems the more likely one to have done that set-up on her.Plus, he read crime books.

 

[BBB167893]

It does happen that mothers direct their anger at their daughter instead of the husband in such a situation.

The rule rather than the exception.

Also, in Cyril Wecht's book, he has a section re one of the lawyers for the Ramseys told his girlfriend that Patsy did it. Of course it is hearsay, but I will try to find it. It is interesting.

Do tell!

 

[Albert18]

I did have another thing to add in response to Dru..it's the fact that JR took a shower that morning,and PR did not...I think he was washing away evidence,while PR only felt the need to redo her makeup.It reeks of less involvement from her in the staging,IMO.

It is common when leaving on a trip to jump out of bed, shower, and put on clean clothes.

It is uncommon when leaving on a trip to jump out of bed, not shower, and put on the same grungy clothes you wore to a party the night before.

So John is under greater suspicion because he did what is common?

JonBenet's death involved no blood splatter but it most certainly would have involved fiber evidence. So showering wouldn't be important but running around the next day in the same clothes might come in handy.

 

[JMO8778]

It is common when leaving on a trip to jump out of bed, shower, and put on clean clothes.

of course.

It is uncommon when leaving on a trip to jump out of bed, not shower, and put on the same grungy clothes you wore to a party the night before.

said same,see above.

So John is under greater suspicion because he did what is common?

in this instance,I believe so,b/c I don't think either of them went to bed that night.JR was up helping to stage the crime,or maybe he staged all of it,and helping w the wording of the RN (b/c it points to AG employees), etc.,so yes,he had evidence to wash off,a ritualistic cleansing of sorts?By that I mean maybe for him it was a mental cleansing,too.

JonBenet's death involved no blood splatter but it most certainly would have involved fiber evidence. So showering wouldn't be important but running around the next day in the same clothes might come in handy.

It likely did involve blood spatter,which was cleaned up,as AMES posted a link about severe head injuries,and they can involve bleeding from the nose, mouth and ears.I can't believe her skull being split almost in 1/2 wouldn't have produced some bleeding.
Patsy didn't volunteer the info about wearing the same clothes she had on the night bf,that was found out later by LE,and that fiber evidence did incriminate her.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

The problem with these assumptions is that Patsy has stated that the size-12's were kept upstairs in JonBenet's bedroom. Then we have the Ramsey's returning remaining said size-12's years later. So who has it wrong here?

Also if the size12's were among the unwrapped xmas gifts and the police found them, considering they matched the pair she was discovered wearing, would this not have been noted, and Patsy asked to comment upon this at one of her interviews?

So if the Ramsey's handed in another set of size-12's to complement a set that the police already had, would this not be a major inconsistency?


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It would. But keep in mind that that would also assume PR was telling the truth about where those size 12 panties were kept. If they had been put in her drawer to wear, it'd be years before they would have fit her. And why anyway, since PR bought JBR the identical set in her proper size.
I recall reading that LE found panties in sizes 4-6 (her previous size that she was just outgrowing) and size 6-8 (which would be an appropriate size for a 6-year old girl). I had a 6-year old girl at one time, who was approximately the size and weight of JBR at that age, and that is the size she wore then. I don't remember seeing that any other size-12 panties were taken from her drawers, but someone here may have that info.
I do recall seeing PR questioned about those panties, at that point the Rs were aware of the fact that it was noticed JBR was wearing way too large panties, and were IMO surprised to find that it had become an issue in the investigation. I think they thought no one would pay any attention to the size of the panties. They were UNDER the long johns, and it wasn't immediately apparent how they fit.

 

[DeeDee249]

Sorry UKGuy - our power went off before I finished.

Here's a repeat, with addition:

I think it depends on how one views what happened. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since based on public knowledge, we see the case differently. I have no way of knowing whether the killer knew she was dead or not.

The blood was only visible on her interior thighs (which I think is what you are saying) and I don't know how much blood was there and whether or not it was caused by sores due to severe "diaper rash" bleeding after being harshly cleaned, or something similar.

As you said, her head injury was severe and in my opinion it was severe enough to possibly make JonBenet appear to be dead after, possibly, having a few convulsive movements. If you want to cover that up, you don't call 911.

Diaper rash or sores in the area would have been noted on the autopsy report, I believe.

 

[UKGuy]

It would. But keep in mind that that would also assume PR was telling the truth about where those size 12 panties were kept. If they had been put in her drawer to wear, it'd be years before they would have fit her. And why anyway, since PR bought JBR the identical set in her proper size.
I recall reading that LE found panties in sizes 4-6 (her previous size that she was just outgrowing) and size 6-8 (which would be an appropriate size for a 6-year old girl). I had a 6-year old girl at one time, who was approximately the size and weight of JBR at that age, and that is the size she wore then. I don't remember seeing that any other size-12 panties were taken from her drawers, but someone here may have that info.
I do recall seeing PR questioned about those panties, at that point the Rs were aware of the fact that it was noticed JBR was wearing way too large panties, and were IMO surprised to find that it had become an issue in the investigation. I think they thought no one would pay any attention to the size of the panties. They were UNDER the long johns, and it wasn't immediately apparent how they fit.

DeeDee249,

Patsy may not have been telling the truth, but either way, the size-12 underwear cannot be in two locations, post homicide, so either the police have the remaining 6-pairs retrieved from the basement, or those from her drawer?

Also there were no size-12 underwear found in her bathroom underwear drawer, and Patsy also stated they were kept in JonBenet's dresser drawer, unopened, so you can probably work out from the contradictions what is going on, later the Ramsey's returned a pack of size-12's saying they had discovered them in an unopened packing crate?

JonBenet's bedroom was searched from top to bottom including her dresser, to date, there have been no reports of size-12 underwear being found?

So its safe to assume that the Ramsey's took the size-12's with them, or simply placed them elsewhere in the house, otherwise if the police had a set that originated from the basement, they would now have two sets and the Ramsey's would have committed a big boo boo!

So using all the available information its safe to conclude that the pair of size-12's JonBenet was wearing when her body was discovered, were not taken from an unwrapped Xmas gift.


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[JMO8778]

DeeDee249,

Patsy may not have been telling the truth, but either way, the size-12 underwear cannot be in two locations, post homicide, so either the police have the remaining 6-pairs retrieved from the basement, or those from her drawer?

Also there were no size-12 underwear found in her bathroom underwear drawer, and Patsy also stated they were kept in JonBenet's dresser drawer, unopened, so you can probably work out from the contradictions what is going on, later the Ramsey's returned a pack of size-12's saying they had discovered them in an unopened packing crate?

JonBenet's bedroom was searched from top to bottom including her dresser, to date, there have been no reports of size-12 underwear being found?

So its safe to assume that the Ramsey's took the size-12's with them, or simply placed them elsewhere in the house, otherwise if the police had a set that originated from the basement, they would now have two sets and the Ramsey's would have committed a big boo boo!

So using all the available information its safe to conclude that the pair of size-12's JonBenet was wearing when her body was discovered, were not taken from an unwrapped Xmas gift.


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what if there was more than one gift in the box? B/c I think that's what happened...the underwear was removed,while something else was either left in,or something else put in,after they were removed.So Patsy can then be comfortable saying she just didn't quite finish the wrapping,when in fact she did...but the box was opened to retrieve the underwear,and something else put in or something else was already in there, too.

 

[UKGuy]

what if there was more than one gift in the box? B/c I think that's what happened...the underwear was removed,while something else was either left in,or something else put in,after they were removed.So Patsy can then be comfortable saying she just didn't quite finish the wrapping,when in fact she did...but the box was opened to retrieve the underwear,and something else put in or something else was already in there, too.

JMO8778,

what if there was more than one gift in the box?

What if there was, how do you know to whom it was intended?

We are now in the territory of inventing evidence to fit our preferred theory.

Where did Patsy put the remaining 6-pairs of size-12 underwear, because they were not in the basement, JonBenet's bathroom, or bedroom?

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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

What if there was, how do you know to whom it was intended?

I don't recall saying I did.what has that got to do with anything?

We are now in the territory of inventing evidence to fit our preferred theory.

not at all.it's all speculation,as always.

Where did Patsy put the remaining 6-pairs of size-12 underwear, because they were not in the basement, JonBenet's bathroom, or bedroom?

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quite possibly Aunt Pammy the home-raider took them away.or perhaps the R's disposed of them somewhere outside of the house.
if they'd been placed elsewhere in the house,wouldn't they have been found anyway?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't recall saying I did.what has that got to do with anything?



not at all.it's all speculation,as always.

quite possibly Aunt Pammy the home-raider took them away.or perhaps the R's disposed of them somewhere outside of the house.
if they'd been placed elsewhere in the house,wouldn't they have been found anyway?

I don't recall saying I did.what has that got to do with anything?

You implied you did by suggesting the Xmas wrapping contained two presents. Patsy purchased the size-12's as an xmas present for her niece Jenny, not for JonBenet, who on the same occassion had size-6's purchased for her, these were placed into the bathroom underwear drawer, the contents of which were later removed by the police.

So it seems the dressing of JonBenet in those size-12's was less a pragmatic decision than a calculated one?

quite possibly Aunt Pammy the home-raider took them away

Sure but not from the basement?


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[rashomon]

rashomon,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why should the garrote be created to add the effect of a bizarre sex crime, but then hide her sexual assault, something does not fit here?

I think they Ramseys could not bring themselves to shockingly display JonBenet. They may have wanted to inflict several vaginal injuries but could not carry it out. So there was only this small vaginal wound.
But they had to add an element of 'bizareness' which should point away from the parents as the perps. This was the 'garrote'. jmo

 

[JMO8778]

You implied you did by suggesting the Xmas wrapping contained two presents. Patsy purchased the size-12's as an xmas present for her niece Jenny, not for JonBenet, who on the same occassion had size-6's purchased for her, these were placed into the bathroom underwear drawer, the contents of which were later removed by the police.

So it seems the dressing of JonBenet in those size-12's was less a pragmatic decision than a calculated one?


Sure but not from the basement?


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I'm saying maybe she bought something else for Jenny,too,which was also in the box,or perhaps the underwear for her was removed,and something else was put in it so as to appear it was partially wrapped.It wouldn't have been an empty box,and if the underwear was a xmas present for her niece,why would it not be wrapped??
no,I don't think they were retrieved from the basement.

 

[UKGuy]

I think they Ramseys could not bring themselves to shockingly display JonBenet. They may have wanted to inflict several vaginal injuries but could not carry it out. So there was only this small vaginal wound.
But they had to add an element of 'bizareness' which should point away from the parents as the perps. This was the 'garrote'. jmo

rashomon,

Maybe, the circumstances of JonBenet's death was bizzare enough in its nature.

Even if they did not inflict multiple vaginal wounds, they then hid the one they did create.

I tend to think the garrote was applied simply to confuse and mask any prior strangulation.

Of course what would add to the bizareness would be if the missing piece of the paintbrush handle had been left inside JonBenet, and then redacted from the autopsy report, this would then fit with the garrote as a bizarre item?


.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I'm saying maybe she bought something else for Jenny,too,which was also in the box,or perhaps the underwear for her was removed,and something else was put in it so as to appear it was partially wrapped.It wouldn't have been an empty box,and if the underwear was a xmas present for her niece,why would it not be wrapped??
no,I don't think they were retrieved from the basement.

That's what I think happened. I think that box had several gifts in it, meant for Jenny and most likely her parents too (was Jenny Polly's daughter?) If more than one gift was unwrapped, I would guess that Patsy had forgotten which gift was the underwear, and had to open a few to find them (or John knew the underwear were in the box, but not which gift)...then after the one pair was used on JonBenet, they hide the rest of the package elsewhere in the house.

When Pam was allowed in the house to get funeral clothes, it gave the Rs the perfect opportunity to get the remaining size 12s before police realized they were stashed in another spot in the house. Pam was going to get clothing for JonBenet to be dressed in for burial as well as for the Rs to wear to the funeral, so who would think twice about several pairs of underwear, if they were seen in inventory?

 

[UKGuy]

I'm saying maybe she bought something else for Jenny,too,which was also in the box,or perhaps the underwear for her was removed,and something else was put in it so as to appear it was partially wrapped.It wouldn't have been an empty box,and if the underwear was a xmas present for her niece,why would it not be wrapped??
no,I don't think they were retrieved from the basement.

JMO8778,
Seems to be a lot of bother over underwear when walking into JonBenet's bathroom would have yielded a pair of size-6's?

Only the police can tell who the unwrapped gift may have been for, more so if they were gift-tag addressed?


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[Nuisanceposter]

I think by the time the staging and redressing was going on, the person doing so didn't want to go back upstairs for underwear, and knew the size 12s didn't have any forensic evidence on them tying them to the Rs since they were brand new. I assume the missing pair went missing due to some kind of evidence on them.

 

[UKGuy]

I think by the time the staging and redressing was going on, the person doing so didn't want to go back upstairs for underwear, and knew the size 12s didn't have any forensic evidence on them tying them to the Rs since they were brand new. I assume the missing pair went missing due to some kind of evidence on them.

Nuisanceposter,

You may be correct, but the discovery of John's fibers and the wiped away blood smears slightly detracts from that scenario.

1. The underwear was size-12
2. The size-12's were clean forensically
3. The size-12's were clean as in fresh e.g. no stains
4. The size-12's had Wednesday stamped on them

Now these features tell us that JonBenet should not be wearing them under these circumstances, but her re-dresser reckoned they were fine?

What do we reckon is wrong with them , only one thing their size.

An interesting point is that if they were intended to deceive then the assumption must be that JonBenet was wearing this underwear on the wednesday, even possibly to the White's party?

So was the underwear supposed to fit with her barbie-gown and yield the impression of being abducted from her bed?


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[BOESP]

Diaper rash or sores in the area would have been noted on the autopsy report, I believe.

I re-read the report and you are correct - only a bare mention of abrasions in the external area. That is odd since so much has been made about her incontinence. It seems she should have had some form of diaper rash. On the other hand, the autopsy findings would support the douche theory, including the watery red liquid. I'll have to re-think this and do some more research.

Does anyone know if the released version of the autopsy is the complete version?