GUILTY NY - DM, 6, & FM, 12, Huevelton, 13 August 2014 - #2

[KristinSchmistin]

If they were creating videos or recording live streaming events (notice how I'm carefully wording that?) for sale, then yes, they had some kind of electronic payment method and the records of that and whatever accounts/passwords they used to collect payment will be on their hard drive(s).

Even if there weren't any payment. Even if it was just emailed or posted, the FBI can track anyone who posts, re-posts, views, accessed, etc, that information (hypothetical CP)


Sent from my not so humble opinion.

 

[dawn929]

Yeah, Uhm, they found recording equipment. They weren't just making home movies over there. There are definitely more- victims and perps. Who knows how far it's spread at this point- anyone who views any hypothetical material put on the internet becomes a perp. And then if they did put it online or it was distributed across state lines? It's federal and jail time goes WAY up.

I am scared to think of the potential. I hope to god it's not bigger than this. But my gut feeling is yes. It is.


Sent from my not so humble opinion.

Could explain the pending Federal charges I've seen referenced all over the news today

 

[Ontario Mom]

Abigail,

I can't "thank" you for that last post because it genuinely infuriates me to see the stats, but I do appreciate you posting it here so that others might see them as well. It still blows my mind that in our day, the changes on a foundational level have not been made to reflect harsh sentences for monsters that prey on the most innocent and defenseless members of society: our children.

I believe PART of the reason those changes haven't been made, is due to the fact that there are pedophiles in quite literally EVERY walk of judicial-related life. From cops, judges, lawyers, politicians, therapists, etc. Logic dictates, if there is *any* group of people that will downplay the severity of the crimes and reject any notion of the idea of harsher sentences, it is the very people in those fields who are also engaging in this criminal activity. I know that sounds outrageous but all you have to do is study the stats to see that YES, men (and women, but far more men) are in fact in these positions in society and DO get busted with this filth on their hard drives, quite often as well, evidence of a connection with others in the same or similar fields with the same interest in sexually exploiting children.

This is not to bash all men and women in LE, by any stretch. I know the perverts are an exception and the vast majority in the field are decent people but at the same time, I also know the perverts are also there (and the decent ones know it too, and are horrified when they discover it's one of their own). I don't know *much* of an influence they have in the way our laws currently stand, but I believe they have a very, very strong vested interest in NOT seeing them changed to become more strict/harsh and do in fact network with like-minded perverts in similar positions. They might not even need much of an influence as long as it's one of those subjects people keep sticking their heads in the sand about because it's too repugnant to talk about.

I don't have a link to back up what I'm saying. I say this from personal experience in having first hand conversations with LE officers (one of which was already doing undercover CP work in 1993 on local bbs networks which were already well-networked globally, another FBI agent in 1994 in MD doing the same kind of work, and a PA county sheriff department and a FL police chief as well, trained in 1995 by high-tech officers in how to catch these monsters with the tech that was available at that time) and the countless news articles I've read that detail how involved many of these cases are. I first learned of this in the early/mid 90's. That was 20 years ago and it was already well established then.

 

[Inthedetails]

Yeah, Uhm, they found recording equipment. They weren't just making home movies over there. There are definitely more- victims and perps. Who knows how far it's spread at this point- anyone who views any hypothetical material put on the internet becomes a perp. And then if they did put it online or it was distributed across state lines? It's federal and jail time goes WAY up.

I am scared to think of the potential. I hope to god it's not bigger than this. But my gut feeling is yes. It is.


Sent from my not so humble opinion.

BBM.

ITA. This thing seems bigger than just one couple's sick kink. I think they were trying to go big-time in their circuit. JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Even if there weren't any payment. Even if it was just emailed or posted, the FBI can track anyone who posts, re-posts, views, accessed, etc, that information (hypothetical CP)


Sent from my not so humble opinion.

Completely agreed. The only real difference is, "for sale" or pay-subscription only type sites tend to yield even more solid information from what I've been told.

 

[blue22]

You're absolutely right that it's common, and the travesty is that most child molesters and child viewers/promoters are given nothing more than a slap on the wrist -- at least here in upstate NY. In my zip code there are currently 9 sex offenders on the registry, 7 of whom are child sex offenders:
1) Child sex offender #1 - assaulted a 13 year old (when he was 24) - got probation only
2) Child sex offender #2 - child - 30 months in prison
3) Child sex offender #3 - sexually abused a 5 year old child (multiple times) - 5 months jail
4) Child sex offenders #4 & 5 - (two woman, btw) - sexually abused a 4 year old child, tried to traffic child, deviate sex w/ child - 42 months state prison
5) Child sex offender #6 - sexually abused a 4 year old (he was in a position of authority over her) - 8 years prison (arrested & convicted in Texas)
6) Child sex offender #7 - assaulted a 14 year old (when he was 37) - probation only

My zipcode has 17, ALL are child sex offenders. We are on the edge of another zipcode, so technically we can use both. The other zipcode has 8, with 6 being child offenders. And those are just the ones that are caught...

 

[Ontario Mom]

Could explain the pending Federal charges I've seen referenced all over the news today

I took a quick look at my newsfeeds and I only saw federal kidnapping charges. I was under the impression unless they were transported across state lines, federal charges didn't apply. Obviously things have changed since the last I really looked into it.

 

[Abigail]

I took a quick look at my newsfeeds and I only saw federal kidnapping charges. I was under the impression unless they were transported across state lines, federal charges didn't apply. Obviously things have changed since the last I really looked into it.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1201
You're right about crossing state lines or national lines, but this principal applies even if the offender "uses the mail or any means, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in committing or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;"

Another issue is how long the offender(s) keep the kidnapped person(s) in captivity. If it exceeds 24 hours, then presumption can be made that state or national lines have been crossed. (SH & NV kidnapped the girls at 7:20 PM and released them very close to that time, maybe a few minutes later, on the next day -- wonder if they had that aspect of the law in mind?)

If the person kidnapped is a minor, and the kidnapper is over 18, and not a family member or legal guardian, the mandatory sentence is at least 20 years.

 

[margarita25]

Disgusting.

 

[Ontario Mom]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1201
You're right about crossing state lines or national lines, but this principal applies even if the offender "uses the mail or any means, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in committing or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;"

I read that at Cornell to and the bolded section is what stood out to me. There haven't been any msm reports on this but the simple fact that they were NOT transported across state lines and yet fed. kidnapping charges are still pending, tells me this is the only other thing that applies.

So..... that means, there was some kind of correspondence (email, text, social media private message, etc.), OUT of state, that discussed this plan and/or how to get rid of the girls after the fact. No other statute would apply, except this.

 

[atthelake]

You're absolutely right that it's common, and the travesty is that most child molesters and child viewers/promoters are given nothing more than a slap on the wrist -- at least here in upstate NY. In my zip code there are currently 9 sex offenders on the registry, 7 of whom are child sex offenders:
1) Child sex offender #1 - assaulted a 13 year old (when he was 24) - got probation only
2) Child sex offender #2 - child - 30 months in prison
3) Child sex offender #3 - sexually abused a 5 year old child (multiple times) - 5 months jail
4) Child sex offenders #4 & 5 - (two woman, btw) - sexually abused a 4 year old child, tried to traffic child, deviate sex w/ child - 42 months state prison
5) Child sex offender #6 - sexually abused a 4 year old (he was in a position of authority over her) - 8 years prison (arrested & convicted in Texas)
6) Child sex offender #7 - assaulted a 14 year old (when he was 37) - probation only

Those statistics are TRAGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just TRAGIC

SMH

If that's all they get.... jeez, balance out having a child have to testify in court with that little time....jeez... jeez.... I'm not a parent, but seeing those stats if I were...having the child go into court vs. moving on... SMH... I don't know what I would do as to extending approval for my child to re-live it all at their ages.

What would you do if your kids, and just for scenario sake...say most expected outcome as four years in jail for the perp?

 

[atthelake]

I took a quick look at my newsfeeds and I only saw federal kidnapping charges. I was under the impression unless they were transported across state lines, federal charges didn't apply. Obviously things have changed since the last I really looked into it.

Federal charges perhaps can apply if transmitted videos/photos iykwim?

 

[atthelake]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1201
You're right about crossing state lines or national lines, but this principal applies even if the offender "uses the mail or any means, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in committing or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;"

Another issue is how long the offender(s) keep the kidnapped person(s) in captivity. If it exceeds 24 hours, then presumption can be made that state or national lines have been crossed. (SH & NV kidnapped the girls at 7:20 PM and released them very close to that time, maybe a few minutes later, on the next day -- wonder if they had that aspect of the law in mind?)

If the person kidnapped is a minor, and the kidnapper is over 18, and not a family member or legal guardian, the mandatory sentence is at least 20 years.

That 24 hour statement you made... :thinking: I've never heard before. Not doubting you (lol link) but :thinking: OMG... they must have been deep into being covert and knowing the laws...my skin is crawling thinking that this is the case

 

[Abigail]

Those statistics are TRAGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just TRAGIC

SMH

If that's all they get.... jeez, balance out having a child have to testify in court with that little time....jeez... jeez.... I'm not a parent, but seeing those stats if I were...having the child go into court vs. moving on... SMH... I don't know what I would do as to extending approval for my child to re-live it all at their ages.

What would you do if your kids, and just for scenario sake...say most expected outcome as four years in jail for the perp?

That would be a hard call to make. Especially of when I think of what those two horrendous women in my area did to a little 4 year old girl (they are classified as sexually violent offenders) and then got out when their victim was only 10. One of the women filed a lawsuit against the NYS prison for sexual abuse in prison -- didn't like when it happened to her, I guess.

However, even if the perp gets a light prison sentence or even just probation, a conviction does put them on the sexual offender registry, which will prevent them getting jobs like bus drivers or school employees and such -- so it would limit their ability to harm other children.

I do think, however, that D.A. Rains is trying to adding on the federal charges, knowing the the minimum sentence would be 20 years, because she doesn't trust the NY state justice system to give these monsters the punishment they deserve.

 

[Ontario Mom]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1201
You're right about crossing state lines or national lines, but this principal applies even if the offender "uses the mail or any means, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in committing or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;"

I just re-read this and noticed something I missed the first time. This says if the use of mail etc. (which would include email, text messages, private messages, etc.) for interstate or foreign commerce (federal definition of interstate commerce: "the purchase, sale or exchange of commodities, transportation of people, money or goods, and navigation of waters between different states") in the commission of or furtherance of the commission of the crime.

In other words, they can be charged FEDERALLY if it can be proven they discussed this crime (before, during or after) with someone in another state, with the intent to share or exchange what they recorded, send the girls across state lines (even if they didn't actually do it), or if they received compensation for the crime. So, if we're looking at federal kidnapping charges, there is someone in another state (or country?) involved in this for sure.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/interstate-commerce/

 

[sophiebelle]

If they were discussing this with other pervs, those pervs knew before or after. They need to be shut down as well. I can't wrap my head around these types of crimes.

 

[Inthedetails]

I just re-read this and noticed something I missed the first time. This says if the use of mail etc. (which would include email, text messages, private messages, etc.) for interstate or foreign commerce (federal definition of interstate commerce: "the purchase, sale or exchange of commodities, transportation of people, money or goods, and navigation of waters between different states") in the commission of or furtherance of the commission of the crime.

In other words, they can be charged FEDERALLY if it can be proven they discussed this crime (before, during or after) with someone in another state, with the intent to share or exchange what they recorded, send the girls across state lines (even if they didn't actually do it), or if they received compensation for the crime. So, if we're looking at federal kidnapping charges, there is someone in another state (or country?) involved in this for sure.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/i/interstate-commerce/

I don't know if the "mailing" (in all it's forms) is required to be about planning the crime. The mailing itself could be the crime, right? If the perps shared photographs or videos of the girls online, then the federal charges apply. The people who viewed the images are in possession of illegal material, as I understand it, just by looking at it on their computer.

Feel free to correct my layman understanding.

 

[Inthedetails]

If they were discussing this with other pervs, those pervs knew before or after. They need to be shut down as well. I can't wrap my head around these types of crimes.

I would guess anyone who was planning with the perps would claim it was pure fantasy and not a plan they ever intended to implement. However, if they continued the conversation after knowing the girls were taken, then they lose the fantasy excuse.

JMO.

 

[Inthedetails]

Snipped

I believe PART of the reason those changes haven't been made, is due to the fact that there are pedophiles in quite literally EVERY walk of judicial-related life. From cops, judges, lawyers, politicians, therapists, etc. Logic dictates, if there is *any* group of people that will downplay the severity of the crimes and reject any notion of the idea of harsher sentences, it is the very people in those fields who are also engaging in this criminal activity. I know that sounds outrageous but all you have to do is study the stats to see that YES, men (and women, but far more men) are in fact in these positions in society and DO get busted with this filth on their hard drives, quite often as well, evidence of a connection with others in the same or similar fields with the same interest in sexually exploiting children.

You mean like this, from today's news headlines:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...onvicted-child-🤬🤬🤬🤬-charges-article-1.1918467

"Timothy DeFoggi, who had been the lead IT specialist at the Department of Health and Human Services, was found guilty Tuesday for accessing and viewing child , and discussing his fantasies — which included the rape and murder of children — on message boards."

ETA: He was top-security level working on cyber security.

 

[Abigail]

Snipped



You mean like this, from today's news headlines:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...onvicted-child-🤬🤬🤬🤬-charges-article-1.1918467

"Timothy DeFoggi, who had been the lead IT specialist at the Department of Health and Human Services, was found guilty Tuesday for accessing and viewing child , and discussing his fantasies — which included the rape and murder of children — on message boards."

ETA: He was top-security level working on cyber security.

:jail: is too good for these kinds of lowlife uke:

I think you guys are right about the use of mail -- that part of the law was a little hard to understand -- but it's my understanding they could be charged w/ federal kidnapping laws if they:
1) Posted photos or videos of the girls online or sent via email or snail mail (to another state or country)
2) Communicated w/ someone across state lines or outside the country about the kidnapping plans or made arrangements to sell the girls, etc.