NY - Ex-President Donald Trump, charged with 34 criminal counts of falsifying business records, Apr 2023, Trial 25 Mar 2024 #2

[Emma Peel]

The Church of Trump on the first hole at Bedminister. I’m not sure where he attends in West Palm. 2nd hole? IMO

Heyyyyyyyy.
It's the Church of Golf. There's one at MAL too.
moo

 

[ZoriahNZ]

[Edited to add]: Sorry I misquoted my reply, I was meaning to reply to @bestill

Actually Trump's tax records are already being used in several court cases, including the NY civil fraud lawsuit in NY (headed by Letitia James) where it is claimed that Trump fraudulently overvalued his real estate properties to secure financing and bank loans and then drastically undervalued them to get massive tax breaks.

Most likely his tax records were also invaluable in the conviction of Trump CEO Weisselberg who eventually pled guilty:

CNN: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/10/...berg-sentencing-trump-organization/index.html

and Trump Organization itself

CNN: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html#:~:text=A Manhattan jury has found,and Trump Payroll Corp.

Some of those records were obtained through other sources (such as via Mazar's accounting firm) because Trump has fought long and hard in the courts to deny the release of those.

Congress was petitioning to get those records to see if there were any violations to the Domestic Emoluments Clause. The Supreme Court finally ruled in favor of the returns being turned over at the end of Dec 2022 . But sadly, the Ways and Means Committee changed leadership from Dem to Rep after Jan 20th. And unsurprisingly, those investigations have since been quashed.

NT Times: House Republicans Quietly Halt Inquiry Into Trump’s Finances

Context matters.

Nevertheless, one could argue that Trump, personally, might have had nothing to do with the above criminal actions which were exposed via court. The problem is, he's the head CEO of said corporation and what does it say about him that so many around him are being found guilty of breaking the law while working for him, on behalf of his company, and/or for his campaign? Are we forgetting Flynn, Manafort, Bannon...?

Reuters: Factbox: Many in Trump's orbit have faced criminal charges

One has to wonder what kind of leadership Trump displays if all of this criminal activity is happening right under his nose without his knowledge or participation. Are we supposed to believe he's this clueless, and undiscerning of his closest associates?

JMO but I see DJT as acting more like a mafia don. His family business is, MOO, basically like a mafia family. He's the head, he makes the decisions and his word is law. Extreme loyalty is demanded from all under his power. But like Capone, he's clever enough to get those he controls to do the dirty work. Deniability. This is why Capone went down for tax evasion charges and not the many more obvious heinous crimes he was likely responsible for.

Lastly, I found this article very interesting and I think it supports my reasoning that the organized crime analogy has its merits:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/20/politics/georgia-racketeering-conspiracy-trump-willis/index.html

 

[JerseyGirl]

Trump may also argue that the statute of limitations — which is five years for most felonies in New York — has run out because the hush money payments and Cohen’s reimbursements happened before then.

There were some extensions during the pandemic, and state law also can stop the clock when a potential defendant is continuously outside the state. Trump visited New York rarely over the four years of his presidency and now lives mostly in Florida and New Jersey. His lawyers could question whether the timeout applies to elected officials serving in Washington.

Analysis: Trump hush money case raises thorny legal issues

NEW YORK (AP) — The cover-up is worse than the crime, the expression goes. And in the hush money case against Donald Trump , prosecutors say the cover-up made the crime worse.

apnews.com

 

[Emma Peel]

I think the payback you surmise happens after trump resigns from his business organizations and takes office. Does this insulate him?

Trump Organization documents say he has resigned from more than 400 businesses

President Donald Trump says he has resigned from positions in hundreds of business entities, according to a document provided to CNN by the Trump Organization.

money.cnn.com

All of this happens over 6 years ago, what are the SOL implications?

You've had some good feedback on this;

I'll just point out that at the DA's presser yesterday, he underscored that Trump personally signed DJT on every Trump Corp check paid to Cohen related to the "catch and kill scheme" for SD ... and each DJT signature on a check to Cohen's fake LLC covering the SD hush-money becomes one of the "false statements".

MOO.

 

[crussell821]

I'm very curious. Can someone tell me what church Trump is a member of? Where he attends regularly?


Laying it on thick, Trump declared: “The main thing that our country needs, again, is religion.” He insisted: “I’m fighting, very hard for people of religion, people that believe in God.” Finally, Trump implored his listeners: “I want you to pray really hard, because we have to have a victory in 2024.”

MAGA Pastors: Trump Was Indicted for Your Sins

After his felony indictment, Trump surrounded himself by faith leaders who called his prosecution "demonic"

www.rollingstone.com

Whichever one will get people to vote for him and donate money. MOO

 

[MyBelle]

[Edited to add]: Sorry I misquoted my reply, I was meaning to reply to @bestill

Actually Trump's tax records are already being used in several court cases, including the NY civil fraud lawsuit in NY (headed by Letitia James) where it is claimed that Trump fraudulently overvalued his real estate properties to secure financing and bank loans and then drastically undervalued them to get massive tax breaks.

Most likely his tax records were also invaluable in the conviction of Trump CEO Weisselberg who eventually pled guilty:

CNN: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/10/...berg-sentencing-trump-organization/index.html

and Trump Organization itself

CNN: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict/index.html#:~:text=A Manhattan jury has found,and Trump Payroll Corp.

Some of those records were obtained through other sources (such as via Mazar's accounting firm) because Trump has fought long and hard in the courts to deny the release of those.

Congress was petitioning to get those records to see if there were any violations to the Domestic Emoluments Clause. The Supreme Court finally ruled in favor of the returns being turned over at the end of Dec 2022 . But sadly, the Ways and Means Committee changed leadership from Dem to Rep after Jan 20th. And unsurprisingly, those investigations have since been quashed.

NT Times: House Republicans Quietly Halt Inquiry Into Trump’s Finances

Context matters.

Nevertheless, one could argue that Trump, personally, might have had nothing to do with the above criminal actions which were exposed via court. The problem is, he's the head CEO of said corporation and what does it say about him that so many around him are being found guilty of breaking the law while working for him, on behalf of his company, and/or for his campaign? Are we forgetting Flynn, Manafort, Bannon...?

Reuters: Factbox: Many in Trump's orbit have faced criminal charges

One has to wonder what kind of leadership Trump displays if all of this criminal activity is happening right under his nose without his knowledge or participation. Are we supposed to believe he's this clueless, and undiscerning of his closest associates?

JMO but I see DJT as acting more like a mafia don. His family business is, MOO, basically like a mafia family. He's the head, he makes the decisions and his word is law. Extreme loyalty is demanded from all under his power. But like Capone, he's clever enough to get those he controls to do the dirty work. Deniability. This is why Capone went down for tax evasion charges and not the many more obvious heinous crimes he was likely responsible for.

Lastly, I found this article very interesting and I think it supports my reasoning that the organized crime analogy has its merits:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/20/politics/georgia-racketeering-conspiracy-trump-willis/index.html

smh. I had never considered the organized crime angle. It certainly does have its merits. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Heyyyyyyyy.
It's the Church of Golf. There's one at MAL too.
moo

But Bedminster is more of a church, since it even has a burial plot for his ex-wife.

 

[Stunned]

Seems quite on the #45 front today, wonder what he’s plotting next? Where’s Melania?
IMO

 

[Stunned]

Heyyyyyyyy.
It's the Church of Golf. There's one at MAL too.
moo

He’s also got the lovely Doral,(lol) located conveniently next to Miami’s warehouse district and the International airport! He swore it was good enough to host a summit with world leaders!

 

[Emma Peel]

My link says this.


Plus your link is for a different statute. This is why it would be nice to know the correct underlining crime. Too much confusion for no reason. JMO.

Ah thank you.
I like 152 as well. It's cleaner isn't it? More straightforward, conspiracy, black and white.
Agree that's a misdemeanor even in 2016. 2016 law below.

2016 New York Laws :: ELN - Election :: Article 17 - (Election) VIOLATIONS OF THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE :: 17-152 - Conspiracy to promote or prevent election.

17-152 - Language below in quotes.

Prosecution will need to prove: conspiracy, unlawful means, promoting election, acted upon. Seems to me they can prove these things. MOO

It's been nice sleuthing with you, btw.

2016 New York Laws​

ELN - Election​

Article 17 - (Election) VIOLATIONS OF THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE​

17-152 - Conspiracy to promote or prevent election.​

Universal Citation: NY Elec L § 17-152 (2016)
17-152. Conspiracy to promote or prevent election. Any two or more
persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to
a public office by unlawful means and which conspiracy is acted upon by
one or more of the parties thereto, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Ah thank you.
I like 152 as well. It's cleaner isn't it? Like black and white.
Agree that's a misdemeanor even in 2016. 2016 law below.
MOO

2016 New York Laws :: ELN - Election :: Article 17 - (Election) VIOLATIONS OF THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE :: 17-152 - Conspiracy to promote or prevent election.

It's been nice sleuthing with you, btw.

It's nice to politely discuss this case with someone who doesn't always agree with me.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Analysis: What could kill the 'zombie' case against Trump again?

The precise legal hook prosecutors used to elevate falsifying business records to felony charges is nowhere in the indictment itself.

www.nbcnews.com

The big question on the minds of many was what legal hook prosecutors would use to elevate what would normally be considered misdemeanors to felonies. A firm answer to that important question, however, is found nowhere in the indictment.

At a news conference after Trump’s arraignment, Bragg identified three other possible crimes Trump allegedly intended to commit to escalate the case to felony territory: federal campaign finance violations; a conspiracy to “promote” Trump’s election by “unlawful means” under state law; and false statements to tax authorities.

First, there’s the thorny threshold issue of Trump’s intent. The falsification of business records requires prosecutors to show an “intent to defraud.” So who exactly was defrauded?

Bragg, as a state prosecutor, doesn’t have jurisdiction to bring federal charges, but hanging his hat, at least in part, on alleged federal campaign finance crimes to elevate the misdemeanor charges to felonies is a gamble.

It’s also not clear that the state conspiracy charge regarding the promotion of a candidate for public office by “unlawful means” isn’t also pre-empted by federal law. The Federal Election Campaign Act expressly provides that it “supersede and preempt any provision of State law with respect to election to Federal office.”

 

[TeaTime]

Trump paid nuisance claims out of his money, not campaign funds. You and I have paid 12.6 million dollars for alleged SA committed by members of congress over the last 20 years.

Everyone knew about Stormy before the election.

She got paid in Feb. 2017. Trump was in office, not running the Trump Irrevocable Trust or the Trump Organization.

It is not a crime to pay off a nuisance claim. Cohen was on retainer.

Legal expense? Yes.

Cohen listed the payments as income. That means he was taxed on it. Where is

MOO

New York State Election Law § 1-102 states: "Except as otherwise expressly provided, the provisions of this chapter shall apply to all elections held in this state, including those for presidential electors, United States senators and representatives in Congress, but not including village elections."

2022 New York Laws :: ELN - Election :: Article 1 - General Provisions :: 1-102 - Applicability of Chapter.

bbm

And no one finds it suspicious that the law was changed in 2020 to include federal elections over which the state has no jurisdiction.

Getting it yet?

He should have used campaign money because Bragg says it was a campaign expenditure rather than a personal expenditure? Imagine if he had used campaign money - Katie! Bar the door!

What kind of twisted nonsense is happening here?

 

[MyBelle]

Trump paid nuisance claims out of his money, not campaign funds. You and I have paid 12.6 million dollars for alleged SA committed by members of congress over the last 20 years.

Everyone knew about Stormy before the election.

She got paid in Feb. 2017. Trump was in office, not running the Trump Irrevocable Trust or the Trump Organization.

It is not a crime to pay off a nuisance claim. Cohen was on retainer.

Legal expense? Yes.

Cohen listed the payments as income. That means he was taxed on it. Where is

And no one finds it suspicious that the law was changed in 2020 to include federal elections over which the state has no jurisdiction.

Getting it yet?

He should have used campaign money because Bragg says it was a campaign expenditure rather than a personal expenditure? Imagine if he had used campaign money - Katie! Bar the door!

What kind of twisted nonsense is happening here?

The "Catch and Kill" strategy was developed by Trump, Cohen, David Pecker in 2015. She got paid. It was Cohen who was repaid by Trump in 2017.

 

[Emma Peel]

Analysis: What could kill the 'zombie' case against Trump again?

The precise legal hook prosecutors used to elevate falsifying business records to felony charges is nowhere in the indictment itself.

www.nbcnews.com

The big question on the minds of many was what legal hook prosecutors would use to elevate what would normally be considered misdemeanors to felonies. A firm answer to that important question, however, is found nowhere in the indictment.

At a news conference after Trump’s arraignment, Bragg identified three other possible crimes Trump allegedly intended to commit to escalate the case to felony territory: federal campaign finance violations; a conspiracy to “promote” Trump’s election by “unlawful means” under state law; and false statements to tax authorities.

It's nice to politely discuss this case with someone who doesn't always agree with me.

That's a great article, thank you. Reporter/lawyer is Valerie Jarrett's daughter. I like seeing measured points and counterpoints in this type of analysis.

Legal folks getting their arms around a few things finally.

If you look at the NY statute (yours) it has those words exactly. (I'm sure you connected those dots already.) "conspire to promote" and "unlawful means"

I''ve been thinking that the "intention" and "conspiring to promote" and the "unlawful means" are the "catch and Kill" plan with the series of pre-election hush-money payments following the famous "kiss 'em, grab 'em" locker room bus talk, ending with the payment to SD. The Trump books cleaning up via checks to Cohen ... is merely the execution of the plan.

Also, I do agree with you on your last sentence there. Thank you again.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm very curious. Can someone tell me what church Trump is a member of? Where he attends regularly?


Laying it on thick, Trump declared: “The main thing that our country needs, again, is religion.” He insisted: “I’m fighting, very hard for people of religion, people that believe in God.” Finally, Trump implored his listeners: “I want you to pray really hard, because we have to have a victory in 2024.”

I notice that he isn't actually saying he is one of the "people of religion" "people that believe in God"
The only "we" in in is "WE have to have a victory in 2024.

He just wants the votes and would say anything to get them. IMO

I really hope not as I think if there was a way, he WOULD make himself President for life

 

[TootsieFootsie]

but is now non-denominational.

It wouldn't surprise me if he actually doesn't believe in God at all.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Trump paid nuisance claims out of his money, not campaign funds. You and I have paid 12.6 million dollars for alleged SA committed by members of congress over the last 20 years.

Everyone knew about Stormy before the election.

What? stormy daniels - Google Trends.

She got paid in Feb. 2017. Trump was in office, not running the Trump Irrevocable Trust or the Trump Organization.

Nope, it was October 2016. Trump actually wanted to delay payment till after the election when it wouldn't matter anymore so he could then stiff Daniels, as is his habit for people he owes. And this proves the payment to her was all about the election.

It is not a crime to pay off a nuisance claim. Cohen was on retainer.

It is when it's for an illicit purpose or falsely reported.

Legal expense? Yes.

Cohen listed the payments as income. That means he was taxed on it. Where is

Cohen was already convicted. Give it up.

And no one finds it suspicious that the law was changed in 2020 to include federal elections over which the state has no jurisdiction.

It wasn't. Legislation | NY State Senate.

Getting it yet?

He should have used campaign money because Bragg says it was a campaign expenditure rather than a personal expenditure? Imagine if he had used campaign money - Katie! Bar the door!

What kind of twisted nonsense is happening here?

Yeah, nonsense.

 

[Emma Peel]

Trump paid nuisance claims out of his money, not campaign funds. You and I have paid 12.6 million dollars for alleged SA committed by members of congress over the last 20 years.

IMO, it doesn't matter. If hush-money was paid for intent of influencing an election outcome - no matter where it comes from - it is in-kind campaign funds.

Everyone knew about Stormy before the election.

Did they? Did everybody know about the hush-money?

She got paid in Feb. 2017. Trump was in office, not running the Trump Irrevocable Trust or the Trump Organization.

Others in the catch and kill scheme were paid before SD.
SD was paid in Oct 2016, signed NDA upon payment.

Oct. 27: Cohen wires $130,000 to Davidson, Daniels' attorney.

Nov. 1: Cohen receives signed copies of the agreement between "Peggy Peterson" and "David Dennison." It is dated Oct. 28. See timeline here:
Timeline: Donald Trump, Stormy Daniels and the $130,000 payment to buy her silence

It is not a crime to pay off a nuisance claim. Cohen was on retainer.

Federal election law disagrees.

Legal expense? Yes.

How?

Cohen listed the payments as income. That means he was taxed on it. Where is

And no one finds it suspicious that the law was changed in 2020 to include federal elections over which the state has no jurisdiction.

see below. Ranch and I were looking at 2 sections of NY State election law. Neither was changed to include federal elections. One was changed where "felony" became "misdemeanor".

Getting it yet?

He should have used campaign money because Bragg says it was a campaign expenditure rather than a personal expenditure? Imagine if he had used campaign money - Katie! Bar the door!

By law, he used in-kind campaign donation money. In-kind contributions to a campaign have to be recorded by the campaign and by the donor.

What kind of twisted nonsense is happening here?

it is twisty, and good chance, both sides will argue what kind of nonsense the other is full of.

2016 change to section 17-142.

The section that contains the word "federal" in reference to type of elections (in 2016) is 17-142. The change to this section was "felony" in 2016 to "misdemeanor" in 2020. The word "federal" didn't change.

I think Ranch is correct, though and 17-142 probably isn't the reference the DA is using. It's 17-152.

17-152 - the section Bragg seems to reference:

This other relevant code, 17-152 has had no change in language since 2016. I just checked on that to report that to RANCH. I agree with RANCH - this seems to be the section DA is referencing.

This is the full Election Code. 2016. If you are interested:
2016 New York Laws :: ELN - Election

This is the Section 17. You'll find the DA's use of language in 17-152. Also see 17-142.4
2016 New York Laws :: ELN - Election :: Article 17 - (Election) VIOLATIONS OF THE ELECTIVE FRANCHISE

 

[MyBelle]

It wouldn't surprise me if he actually doesn't believe in God at all.

His rally in Waco was on anniversary of the Branch Davidian mass killing. I now understand why NYC prepared for violence on a massive scale. <modsnip: off topic>