NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #10

[truthspider]

First of all, I don't know who our "sk" is or who he targets. Your theory is that our "sk" is one guy who committed all these murders...I don't neccesarily share that theory. Therefore, I can't say with any certainty that our Jane Doe with the scars is a victim of the GB4 killer, or the Manorville killer either, for that matter. So to say "our sk" is a misnomer, to my way of thinking.

Secondly, fasciotomy is a fairly common surgical treatment for athletes with CECS, but I won't argue the point. We don't even know whether or not these scars are from a fasciotomy. I was simply wondering aloud.

Perhaps the fact that the medical examiner took enough interest in the 3rd "L-shaped" scar on the shin of her right leg to mention it on the report will convince you that it was more likely a crush injury motivated fasciotomy, than a sport driven one?

Or the fact that only one foot had painted toe nails(red), hinting that the other foot wasn't used for display purposes because of scars or deformity?

To me, the fact that both of the calf side scars are exactly 3.5 inches does hint at fasciotomy, and i think you are a super-sleuth for suggesting it!

"Press reports from April 1996 indicate that two severed legs were found on the shores of Davis Park, on Fire Island, by two seasonal residents walking along the beach. The toenails of one foot were painted red and the right leg had 3 1/2-inch scar on the rear calf and L-shaped scar on the shin. The left leg had a 3 1/2-inch scar on the inner side. "

 

[PickleChris]

@Truth....

Stumbled across this, you might want to read a bit.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uscg.mil%2Fhistory%2Fweboralhistory%2FTWA_Flight_800_Pat_Golden.pdf&rct=j&q=flight%20800%20first%20responders%20hackett&ei=nWWDToeNLZLr0QHu8LyFAQ&usg=AFQjCNHq-V8D8emWjssVbCq9wflp_rPi2Q&cad=rja

 

[Peter Brendt]

Somehow, CPH doesn't sound interesting for LISK2 but he sounds a possible for Manorville. I read a lot about that TWA 800 crash, but rather from a technical point of view. Still, one can't ignore the amount of bodies ripped to pieces, those teams had to pull out of the water. It was definitively traumatic and in it's details certainly consistent with a torso-killer/dismemberer. However, there were more people on the scene and most of them were from the area. What we would need is a plausible hard connection to Jessica Taylor or to Jane Doe 10. Just in the area and breathing is not enough to make LE moving their rears.
It appears as if CPH is some tough driver? Can it then be, that his comfort zone has a mobile part aka his car? What does he drive? Or, what did he drive at the time, JT disappeared? SKs with mobile or partially mobile comfort zones are not unknown, even most cases, I can remember right now had split or dissociative personalities stuck in beginning stages and anti-social personality disorders, either in the form of psychopath or sociopath, in their set of disorders. Driving around seems to work good for that kind, look at Ted Bundy.

 

[truthspider]

Truthspider,

Your research is very good. For me, you gave some additional weight to your theory with your insight that CPH likely traveled to the executive air park from East Moriches during a traumatizing event, although I still question whether the two sets of bodies are related. This may be a piece of good info that even the po po aren't aware of, and you might want to share the insight. If the travel route can be confirmed by coworkers, that might be useful in a prosecution.

I only wanted to show that one of the suspects, namely CPH, had familiarity with the Manorville dump site, and that he frequented the area during the time of the 2000 and 2003 murders. Verifying his employment in Riverhead accomplished that as he would driven past that spot on the LIE at very odd hours (ER shifts go into the middle of the night) during the summer and fall of 2000 and 2003. The flight 800 document was icing on the cake as the only direct route between the coast guard station and the executive park is Halsey Manor Rd, the exact street where the bodies were found, this for me proves that he not only knows the Manorville area, but is familiar with Halsey Manor Rd, hence my excitement. *note that the flight 800 tragedy was 4 years prior to the first Manorville victims and I didn't suggest otherwise, I merely wanted to show his familiarity with the area for later use.

If i had to bet $, I would say neither JB or MP have ever even heard of Halsey Manor Rd. let alone used it regularly for some time.

Speaking with a police officer last weekend, I was told that bodies are literally all over the place. The officer recounted a development project in Brooklyn where construction had to be repeatedly stopped as bodies were continually discovered, allowing time for the police to come in, collect the bodies and look for evidence - obviously to the irritation of the construction workers and project developers. So even though the GB4 and the Manorville bodies were found nearby, and even though some of the victims had a common lifestyle, it does not mean to me that they are related given the population density on LI. If there were only 30,000 people on LI, I would say they are likely related.

You are too smart to be drawing a comparison between brooklyn and oak beach or brooklyn and manorville. Has there ever been a murder victim found on jones island prior to Dec 10th 2010?

I'm curious as to your theory for the night of SG's disappearance. What do you think happened?

read my post from earlier:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7166810&postcount=1285"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #10[/ame]

I also don't get your theory that somehow SG was disposed of on CPH's ride out west. I've taken long trips with parents, and I would have noticed a strange cooler with a bad odor that dad didn't want me opening or going near. What's your take on how he would have concealed this from his daughter?

I don't really have that theory, I think it's possible though. The SK is a man who has been scattering parts of people in plastic bags all over ny for 15 years at this point, he is comfy doing it right under peoples noses, probably because he doesn't fit the profile of an SK. I think that the motivation for flight a few days after the Gilbert family banged on his door and interrupted his mothers day party prompted his interest in driving across country. But maybe they took 2 cars, one for her to keep there and another so that he could help move all of her things. Maybe they took one car and he is a control freak who packed the car and strapped items to the roof rack, and whose family knows not to touch "his" things. You could put a dismembered person in tightly wrapped plastic bags, inside luggage without detecting the smell.
Maybe he's into fly fishing (almost all the remains are in park territory where fishing is allowed) and would naturally bring his gear & equipment, and cooler on a trip to the grand canyon. Tons of narcotics move across this country every single day without people or police noticing, the same could easily be done with a dismembered body.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Perhaps the fact that the medical examiner took enough interest in the 3rd "L-shaped" scar on the shin of her right leg to mention it on the report will convince you that it was more likely a crush injury motivated fasciotomy, than a sport driven one?

Or the fact that only one foot had painted toe nails(red), hinting that the other foot wasn't used for display purposes because of scars or deformity?

To me, the fact that both of the calf side scars are exactly 3.5 inches does hint at fasciotomy, and i think you are a super-sleuth for suggesting it!

"Press reports from April 1996 indicate that two severed legs were found on the shores of Davis Park, on Fire Island, by two seasonal residents walking along the beach. The toenails of one foot were painted red and the right leg had 3 1/2-inch scar on the rear calf and L-shaped scar on the shin. The left leg had a 3 1/2-inch scar on the inner side. "

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't know enough about fasciotomy to be able to conclude anything. I'd never even heard of the procedure prior to stumbling upon it last night. I'm still reading.

Regarding the report of the toenails of one foot being painted red: I'm really unclear about that info. Do we know for certain that both feet were found with the remains? What I have read, and that's admittedly little, leaves this point vague in my mind. Again...more reading for me, I guess.

 

[truthspider]

how old was your suspect in 1995 inspector?

 

[inspctrgadget]

how old was your suspect in 1995 inspector?

I believe 29, but he may have been 31.

 

[Sistah Sleuth]

Truthspider, I promise that I won't say, "So?" anymore. I'm at the point now where I am waiting to be able to throw up both of my hands to the heavens and yell, "I BELIEVE!"

 

[SherlockHomes]

Truthspider are you flukeyou?

Serial killer kills trannies and calls families. JB makes a snarky comment about trannies right after the male body was found. Before the police say the man was in women's clothing. Dr. H calls Shannan's family after she disappeared, just like the serial killer called Melissa's sister and her boyfriend. Does this seem suspicious to anyone? They both make themselves look guilty

 

[scandi]

our SK has never shown signs of targeting athletic people if you know what I mean. Was she a small statured, drug addicted, athletic/intense runner, who painted her toe nails red?

hmmm, the runner part doesn't really fit too well, it's also much less common that the surgery would be necessary for someone with sports induced chronic compartment syndrome.

"Chronic compartment syndrome occurs because of excessive exercise, where repetitive motion and muscle use cause localized swelling and irritation. Most often, symptoms in the legs are seen with runners and bicyclists and in the arms of swimmers. Symptoms resolve with rest and very rarely progress to an acute limb threatening situation."


Maybe CPH thinks his leg could have been saved if he was given a fasciotomy?
Maybe CPH performed her fasciotomy in the ER then years later took her life.
The legs in Davis Park had scars on both legs, sounds like the woman was in a serious accident and her legs were saved thanks to the fasciotomy.

Hmmm, imagine that, you have both your legs because they were saved by an emergency opertion (fasciotomy), only to have them later cut off by a SK for convenience of discarding your body? THAT IS IRONIC!!! or really unlucky, or it wasn't a coincidence......

Yes Truthspider I can imagine that. Plus having the legs removed by the SK so she would never be ID'ed. Was she killed in 2006? Where was her torso found, if so?

I was thinking of a 3 year cycle of killings by the SK starting in 2000 with JDoe 6, then Jessica Taylor in 2003 then the Fire Island gal in 2006. The AC murders were also in 2006 and all killed about the same time. That could be when he was at his height of killing. Then as he aged his MO changed and we've talked all about that.

Imagining all the possibilities makes it hard to believe it is only COINKYDINK :maddening:

 

[scandi]

Truthspider,

Your research is very good. For me, you gave some additional weight to your theory with your insight that CPH likely traveled to the executive air park from East Moriches during a traumatizing event, although I still question whether the two sets of bodies are related. This may be a piece of good info that even the po po aren't aware of, and you might want to share the insight. If the travel route can be confirmed by coworkers, that might be useful in a prosecution.

Speaking with a police officer last weekend, I was told that bodies are literally all over the place. The officer recounted a development project in Brooklyn where construction had to be repeatedly stopped as bodies were continually discovered, allowing time for the police to come in, collect the bodies and look for evidence - obviously to the irritation of the construction workers and project developers. So even though the GB4 and the Manorville bodies were found nearby, and even though some of the victims had a common lifestyle, it does not mean to me that they are related given the population density on LI. If there were only 30,000 people on LI, I would say they are likely related.

I'm curious as to your theory for the night of SG's disappearance. What do you think happened? Was CPH walking his dog? Did SG knock on CPH's door? Was he out driving around, and if so, what did he see? What did he do? Where did he go?

I ask this because I'm really interested in your ideas, but I still have a hard time believing that CPH had the opportunity. My theory is still that the SK witnessed some portion of SG's flight from JB's house. I also believe that in order to have the opportunity, the SK would need to be single and living alone, not married with a wife and kids sleeping at home.

My suspect (not CPH) is apparently single and had a 360 degree view of the entire scene from GC's front stoop all the way to JB's house (and even to CPH's house). There have also been similar unsolved serial killings in areas where they have previously lived. I could mention that a relative lived on the north fork and therefore this person was likely familiar with Halsey Manor Rd., but as mentioned I'm not sure that GB4 and Manorville are related.

I also don't get your theory that somehow SG was disposed of on CPH's ride out west. I've taken long trips with parents, and I would have noticed a strange cooler with a bad odor that dad didn't want me opening or going near. What's your take on how he would have concealed this from his daughter? Sounds far fetched.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

Hi Inspctrgadget, Would your suspect's house sit up high and he sold it and lives out of the area now?

 

[scandi]

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't know enough about fasciotomy to be able to conclude anything. I'd never even heard of the procedure prior to stumbling upon it last night. I'm still reading.

Regarding the report of the toenails of one foot being painted red: I'm really unclear about that info. Do we know for certain that both feet were found with the remains? What I have read, and that's admittedly little, leaves this point vague in my mind. Again...more reading for me, I guess.

Hi Mountain Kat, Last night I looked up fasciotomy having no idea what the operation was and saw some photos of the operation under way {both live and dead patients} that were absolutely chilling. I almost :sick:

 

[Pinkhammer]

I wanted to stay away for some days because I have other work to do currently (if you find me strangled with about twenty fingerprints on my throat, it was most likely a bunch of agents and editors getting to me for being late with manuscripts). But this whole thing appears really to have become one big mess with gravy over it.
So, lets sort it out:
Manorville: A killer, who dismembers his victims and stages bodies while he just throws away the rest. A not nearer specified number of cases linked. It seems, that by the mere fact, that he lived and breathed around in the area, CPH is the main suspect for some.
GB4: A relative wide victimology, a long cool down phase, no staging, but just dropping of the bodies in the bushes. All four wrapped in burlap. There is some disagreement here, whether a guy with one leg missing and breathing problems would be able to commit these murders. I am also not convinced yet, that LI is in the center of that case or just a dumping ground.
Shannan Gilbert: We don't even know, whether SG is connected to the GB4 or Manorville. All we really know is, she is missing and people saw her running around in Oak Beach that night.
So, I second the suggestion (or do I already third it?), to split this into two cases: Manorville and LISK2.

I think it should be separated into two cases.

Here we are in autumn, winter is approaching; all activity, searches, etc. will cease.

The Oak Beach/Gilgo Beach/Jones Beach cases will soon be as frozen as the ground.

Cops need a lucky break, or a fresh body.

 

[truthspider]

Yes, though I think he may have manipulated JB during the May 1st incident, and acted as a drug provider, or john via proxy, or both.

When i say john via proxy, I mean JB pimped SG to doc for an hour because CPH motivated him to do so, MP's statements back this up somewhat, as do the calls to a 24 hr pharmacy. If this is the case then during the initial missing persons investigation, JB would likely lie to LE and not mention his own criminal act and CPH, afterall it was a mere missing persons case and JB wouldn't suspect murder.

Then comes Dec. 10th and the 4 bodies and JB would quickly change his tune to the police, spill the beans and begin really cooperating, but obviously JB would not be able to talk to the public about the investigation, and since he has "skin in the game" (LE has him by the B's) obeys the gag order and doesn't mention CPH to the public during the investigation. But the Gilbert family who around April 10th or shortly after, lose their patience and throw CPH's name into the public (the damming phone call) for the first time, likely due to the traumatic nature of the discovery of so many additional remains.

This would certainly explain JB's statements and demeanor, "the truth will come out" (and the holy **** this can't be really happening attitude)

I think we have a good chance of actually connecting the SK to this new jane dough with the scars on her legs, possibly his first victim, as I don't think he conveniently ran across someone who shares his predicament in the anonymous world of prostitutes. But sadly, even connecting him to her, (if say they were in rehab or a peer group together, or he was her ER doc) may not be enough to bring him to trial. It would force the sane members of society to recognize him as an SK, but there is still a very good chance of a legal stalemate. :sick:

JB as a proxy, it occurred to me that if CPH was using JB as a proxy to recruit a girl, then one of the mysteries of this case could be reconciled:

If JB is the SK why would he have the girl delivered to his house? Well he wouldn't if he was the SK, but if he was acting on behalf of the SK, the SK could get a girl who fits the parameters that he needs, without being directly tied to her.

SG fit the profile of the victim too well too have encountered the SK randomly. She is not from the Long Island area (why would JB book an escort from NJ) she has a history with drugs, and she was the right size.

It could also explain JB's inquiry to make sure SG wasn't a man, the SK doesn't need that experience again.

"I'll give you 3000.00 if you book this girl for the night, pick her up in the city, then bring her by me for an hour, heres the link to her ad, and make sure she isn't a man, you can give her this pill it will make her do anything you want" - CPH to JB

This is the only way I can reconcile the fact that SG was targeted for harm, even though she was delivered by a driver who was waiting outside of his house. I think CPH felt he could just manipulate JB once the ball was rolling and tell him something like, "don't worry, I have to go to the city tomorrow anyway, I will give her a ride" or by simply knowing that he was going to drug SG and that JB woud come running trying to hand the girl over to him to fix everything. "She's overdosing, bring her here, I will treat her and take care of everything, go home I'll take care of it." I don't think CPH knew she had a driver waiting outside of JB's.

 

[SherlockHomes]

Sounds a bit far fetched. Not a very smart plan, if that was the case. Shannan clearly realized the danger at JB's house but was it after they went for the "15 minute ride"? Shannan went back to JB's after that and then freaked out. Did Shannan have two phones when she was running from door to door? The key is she freaked out in JB's house something scared her in HIS HOUSE. MB's boyfriend said he knows the guys house that she used to go. Is it in Oak Beach? Is it Dr. Hackett's house? Dr. H has a wife and 3 kids so he can't have girls to his house unless they are away, and then the neighbors would all see.

Do you really see Dr Hackett for AC? "Drifter's Mom" lives in Massapequa so he is probably from there. The story about JB and another man loading stuff in the middle of the night into a u-haul with no lights. Hmm suspicious.

I think this killer is someone who has alot of time on his hands to spend planning out his kills. Maybe not a family man with 1 leg? JB + Drifter killing team

Honestly I don't mind the fact that your tearing Dr. Hackett's life apart. He sure looks like he's involved in someway. But why is nobody doing this for JB? We still know nothing about him and nobody even thinks the drifter is real. You and flukeyou constantly obsessed with the DR, Foreigner dissects HA's life but anybody know what JB's been doing for the last 20 years? Nope

 

[goathairjones]

I believe 29, but he may have been 31.

Inspector,

I am liking your suspect! I think I know who you are talking about. And it makes sense. Why else would he move away?

 

[scandi]

Inspector,

I am liking your suspect! I think I know who you are talking about. And it makes sense. Why else would he move away?

Hi Goathairjones, Is this suspect the first person we looked at in the case, before CPH :banghead: ? Can you both speculate as to why you think it is this person who had a 360 degree view of what went on? I haven't read of any LE activity concerning this person. I've always been curious about him tho if it is the same guy.

I believe Shannan had to run past his house before she knocked on the mother and son's door where she left footprints in the sand. He could have hopped in his car and gone after her but I would think the neighbors would have seen his car.

 

[Redbird]

We are not on this subject now, but this thought has been running through my mind all evening. It's about whether CPH would be strong enough to carry bodies into the brush. If he has a large truck do you suppose he could have used a gurney? Slide victim onto it, into the truck, pull it back out and roll it into the brush. Do you think this could be possible?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Hi Mountain Kat, Last night I looked up fasciotomy having no idea what the operation was and saw some photos of the operation under way {both live and dead patients} that were absolutely chilling. I almost :sick:

I made the same mistake, Scandi. :sick:

I honestly don't even know what made me light on the idea of surgical scars to begin with...very specific length of both scars? L-shape? Just seemed like they were too perfect to be accidental scars, I guess. So I googled "surgical L-shaped scars" and fasciotomy popped right up. Of course, there are a number of surgical procedures that could leave similar scars, so I don't think we can say with any certainty that they came from a fasciotomy...but it's an interesting thought. It's also interesting to ponder whether this victim was athletic...runner, tennis player, professionally trained dancer turned stripper. At the very least, it's something we can keep in mind when we're looking into UID'd missing women.

 

[truthspider]

I made the same mistake, Scandi. :sick:

I honestly don't even know what made me light on the idea of surgical scars to begin with...very specific length of both scars? L-shape? Just seemed like they were too perfect to be accidental scars, I guess. So I googled "surgical L-shaped scars" and fasciotomy popped right up. Of course, there are a number of surgical procedures that could leave similar scars, so I don't think we can say with any certainty that they came from a fasciotomy...but it's an interesting thought. It's also interesting to ponder whether this victim was athletic...runner, tennis player, professionally trained dancer turned stripper. At the very least, it's something we can keep in mind when we're looking into UID'd missing women.

i talked over the concept of only painting the nails on one foot with someone who could provide insight, my girlfriend. She didn't like my idea that there was something wrong with one of her feet, so she only paints nails on one foot. She said a girl wouldn't highlight one of the feet as it would still draw attention to the foot you were trying to hide.

She said the only reason she could imagine a woman doing this was if she had a cast on one of the feet and couldnt access the nails, or if the toe nails were being painted and with only one of them done, she was interrupted.

I like the cast idea.