NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[alliemay]

Didn't MMQC say at one time that her brother lived in the other side of the Lwowski's house before Sylvia disappeared? If I undertand your question, you're asking if the house, at one time, was not a duplex? I think it always was.

I forgot about that you are right, she did say her brother lived next door.

 

[alliemay]

bbm: I would be surprised if these remains found in the ocean in 2011 belonged to Sylvia Lwowski. Would human remains in the ocean even be in tact, or on the east coast after 35 plus years?

And I agree the article is not very clearly written.

I don't think human remains would be in tact after 35 plus years. I was thinking possible other missing people more recent. There seems to be quite a few missing. I wonder how long he has (for the sake of the family) before he has to make it official. Does the family have to wait to have a burial for her? Just so sad.

 

[rosemadderlake]

In thinking of Sylvia’s dentals, if she died 30 plus years ago and her remains are found in tact, the dentals would be close to perfect- her brother said she had no cavities and clearly she had beautiful teeth. If she had no cavities, I am sure there is charting but likely no x-rays. I wonder if the Lwowskis had military health and dental coverage.

The UID and DNA match process takes a really long time. I was surprised to hear 2 years on DNA testing when we were discussing the remains of the woman found in upstate NY who looks like Sylvia – but there are only so many labs in the country. I was encouraged by Sylvia’s case manager at NamUs who said possible match UIDs can be submitted to her directly and they will push it through faster, if possible. If remains are found that seem to closely match (especially the dentals), I read that the surviving family can do an independent DNA test to expedite an answer.

Skeet, your post made me think of the MIAs in war, certain casualties of war, flight, and natural disasters, the families of 911, and the deeper mystery of the missing ones where no physical remains represent the person mourned. How do you bury someone without a body and in Sylvia’s case without ever knowing what really happened to her? Especially where there is a margin of hope that she could still be alive, somewhere… There is no “closure” in how it is usually defined. Imo-this facet of the human experience is not easy to comprehend fully from the outside looking in.

It is so sad. How does someone disappear without a trace? Who will come forward and give over the missing piece, link? Who will remember that seemingly insignificant piece that could unravel the whole mystery as we have seen in some other cases? As we circle around and around the various possibilities I come back around to secrets, and the skeleton is still very much in the closet-

 

[alliemay]

I think there are three reasons why people clam up. #1 - they are afraid of being sued. #2 - afraid that someone will harm them. #3 - afraid that someone's reputation with be harmed.

I have been thinking a lot about her the last few days. It seems that she may have been somewhat dependent on the people in her life. Ride's to school with her Dad or her friend. Did she not have a license, or did she have a license but just didn't have a car. Even the day she went missing she was dependent on her friend to take her shopping. She was nervous and had a "puss" on because she didn't want to be late for her date. I can imagine her frustration. You didn't drive yourself so you can't just leave you have to wait until others are ready before you can leave. Was she also mad at her friend when they parted? IF (big if) she did run from the BF's car, IF she was upset with her friend, maybe the friend had made comments about the BF, she wouldn't run to her house like she had in the past. She would have thought about going somewhere else maybe? Just a few thought out of many.

 

[DianeElaine]

I've been thinking that unless the bf/f comes clean and tells LE what he did with SL that night in 1975, and does it fairly soon, he'll be dead and gone and just about any chance we have of finding her will be gone with him. Of course, my premise (which is JMO) is that the bf/f killed SL and buried her somewhere.

So I've been daydreaming about approaches. These are just my wild ideas.

Begin by talking to LE about putting up a billboard on the route the bf/f takes to work every day, with SL's picture on it, asking for the public's help to get any information on her disappearance. Incorporate any suggestions they might have. (I realize it will be expensive and someone will have to pay for it.) Leave it up there at least a month. The idea is to make the bf/f face the billboard every day. It might even make some of his friends who see the billboard call him and ask him if he'd seen it. He *might* even worry a bit that someone out there might remember something about the night of the disappearance and go to LE with it.

Next, talk to the detective who is supposedly working on SL's cold case and see if he/she is interested in overhearing the bf/f's reaction to some made-up "news about SL" over the phone. If he/she could use the bf/f's reaction to possibly bring him in for questioning, or even put a tracking device on his vehicle(s) to see if he goes to any out-of-the-way location to see if SL's body has been discovered, then it may be worthwhile to set up a 'sting.'


The sting:

Ask MMQC (and/or SL's brother) to phone the bf/f, while LE is listening in. Begin the phone conversation with something like, "I thought you'd like to know we have some new information on SL's disappearance." At that point, the bf/f might say something like:

1. "I told you never to contact me again! I consider this harassment!"
or
2. "I'm listening. What is the new information?"
In response to 1, MMQC (and/or SL's brother) might say, "Well, I thought you'd like to know if we had any new information on SL, but apparently you are not interested."
or
In response to 2, MMQC (and/or SL's brother) might say, "The police dept. called me and asked me to come down to the station, b/c they said they have some new important information about SL and they didn't want to tell us over the phone. I thought you would like to know there's been a break in the case."

I think the bf/f is not a good man--but he seems to have some redeeming qualities (at least he may have). He's a homeowner, husband, father (I think) and has had a successful career. I think he lost his nasty temper and killed SL in a fit of rage. He's had to live with SL's murder all these years--and it must be taking a toll on him. He's matured and might be sick and tired of worrying if/when someone was going to find out what happened that night and report it to LE. It wouldn't surprise me if he's checked out SL's burial site at least once to ensure its "integrity." I wonder if his family owned a cabin or vacation home (or even rented a cabin or vacation home) that he might have thought was far enough out of the way that he could bury SL and no one would ever find her (yet was close enough to SI for a round trip to fit into the timeline that night). ?

As you can see by now, I've just gone wild with ideas! I am worried that unless LE can squeeze the bf/f for information, we may never know what happened and that's just unacceptable.

JMO!

 

[alliemay]

The billboard sign is a good idea, but I would think near the mall were she went missing would be a better spot. (more traffic?) I am not sure but I think Mericle will put up a billboard for free but a family member has to contact them and request them to do it. The brother may want to check that out.

As far as the other stuff you talked about, if it ever went to trial I think you would need more then just "he didn't show any concern after she went missing". I really do wish we could see the rest of the police report, ( I am going to bet there is more) I would think the police would have already questioned him back then and also when the case was re-opened in 2010.

There are many unanswered questions, for me anyway. Like the fight she had at the pool party, what words were spoken that night to make her leave? Why wasn't the BF/F there? Who was "Red"? Questions like that an many others. Certainly not taking sides here but I do like to eliminate all other possibilities before I can point my finger in one direction, and so far I have read nothing on here or anywhere else that would make me feel certain one way or the other.

 

[Jmoose]

I think there are three reasons why people clam up. #1 - they are afraid of being sued. #2 - afraid that someone will harm them. #3 - afraid that someone's reputation with be harmed.

I have been thinking a lot about her the last few days. It seems that she may have been somewhat dependent on the people in her life. Ride's to school with her Dad or her friend. Did she not have a license, or did she have a license but just didn't have a car. Even the day she went missing she was dependent on her friend to take her shopping. She was nervous and had a "puss" on because she didn't want to be late for her date. I can imagine her frustration. You didn't drive yourself so you can't just leave you have to wait until others are ready before you can leave. Was she also mad at her friend when they parted? IF (big if) she did run from the BF's car, IF she was upset with her friend, maybe the friend had made comments about the BF, she wouldn't run to her house like she had in the past. She would have thought about going somewhere else maybe? Just a few thought out of many.

I think she had a driver's license (sort of remember either MMQC or ASWDH saying so). I think that, like many of us at that time, she just did not have a car. Interesting thoughts, though, Skeet.

 

[Jmoose]

I've been thinking that unless the bf/f comes clean and tells LE what he did with SL that night in 1975, and does it fairly soon, he'll be dead and gone and just about any chance we have of finding her will be gone with him. Of course, my premise (which is JMO) is that the bf/f killed SL and buried her somewhere.

So I've been daydreaming about approaches. These are just my wild ideas.

Begin by talking to LE about putting up a billboard on the route the bf/f takes to work every day, with SL's picture on it, asking for the public's help to get any information on her disappearance. Incorporate any suggestions they might have. (I realize it will be expensive and someone will have to pay for it.) Leave it up there at least a month. The idea is to make the bf/f face the billboard every day. It might even make some of his friends who see the billboard call him and ask him if he'd seen it. He *might* even worry a bit that someone out there might remember something about the night of the disappearance and go to LE with it.

Next, talk to the detective who is supposedly working on SL's cold case and see if he/she is interested in overhearing the bf/f's reaction to some made-up "news about SL" over the phone. If he/she could use the bf/f's reaction to possibly bring him in for questioning, or even put a tracking device on his vehicle(s) to see if he goes to any out-of-the-way location to see if SL's body has been discovered, then it may be worthwhile to set up a 'sting.'


The sting:

Ask MMQC (and/or SL's brother) to phone the bf/f, while LE is listening in. Begin the phone conversation with something like, "I thought you'd like to know we have some new information on SL's disappearance." At that point, the bf/f might say something like:

1. "I told you never to contact me again! I consider this harassment!"
or
2. "I'm listening. What is the new information?"
In response to 1, MMQC (and/or SL's brother) might say, "Well, I thought you'd like to know if we had any new information on SL, but apparently you are not interested."
or
In response to 2, MMQC (and/or SL's brother) might say, "The police dept. called me and asked me to come down to the station, b/c they said they have some new important information about SL and they didn't want to tell us over the phone. I thought you would like to know there's been a break in the case."

I think the bf/f is not a good man--but he seems to have some redeeming qualities (at least he may have). He's a homeowner, husband, father (I think) and has had a successful career. I think he lost his nasty temper and killed SL in a fit of rage. He's had to live with SL's murder all these years--and it must be taking a toll on him. He's matured and might be sick and tired of worrying if/when someone was going to find out what happened that night and report it to LE. It wouldn't surprise me if he's checked out SL's burial site at least once to ensure its "integrity." I wonder if his family owned a cabin or vacation home (or even rented a cabin or vacation home) that he might have thought was far enough out of the way that he could bury SL and no one would ever find her (yet was close enough to SI for a round trip to fit into the timeline that night). ?

As you can see by now, I've just gone wild with ideas! I am worried that unless LE can squeeze the bf/f for information, we may never know what happened and that's just unacceptable.

JMO!

MMQC was told by BF/F in no uncertain terms not to contact him again (he also told Sylvia's mother the same thing), and Sylvia's brother was told not to contact him by the police, or he'd likely be facing a harrassment suit. And there are other reasons that LE can't/don't lean on him-jurisdiction is one of them, if I correctly understood a detective that I spoke to. Apparently, BF/F doesn't have to talk to them if he doesn't want to, and he doesn't. But...I like the way your mind wildly speculates!

 

[rosemadderlake]

DianeElaine- your post highlights well the monumental feelings that Sylvia met her fate at the hands of someone very close to her. I wonder if the posted video and blogs have helped “smoke ‘em out” or squeeze out a confession. These tactics have brought forth sleuths who may know case templates on various murder scenarios, and have absolutely no problem naming, linking, and accusing someone in a veiled way with whom they have no personal knowledge, but I worry it may have nailed the coffin shut on asking the public for help in a way that actually elicits help because it seems counter intuitive. It is kind of a hard ball tactic hiding behind “it is ok as long as I say it is my opinion”. And the court of public opinion is very subjective. -Things went very quiet afterwards.

There is the beyond a reasonable doubt as to whether a murder was committed, a body was buried, and an alibi was created along with a theatrical performance for Sylvia’s parents and best friend in a four hour time window. Then, as if nothing ever happened, life goes on and no one else knew. -No investigation and now 38 years later, no one knows. - It could be exactly the way it played out but all this is the burden of proof in first or second degree murder with or without a body.

-I have to wonder what confirms that direction other than being the last known person to see her and not believing his story. -Knowledge of the argument? -The police interview? -Evidence of the glasses? -Knowledge of the private investigator findings? -Person coming forward who said the ring is in BF/F possession? If LE had enough to confirm the BF/F was a suspect, what would they have done to squeeze out a confession without a body?

I wonder-if the BF/F cooperated with LE in 1975 & 2010, is LE obligated to tell her family?

-We only have a part of the story here on WebSleuths. -imo…

 

[alliemay]

Quote "-I have to wonder what confirms that direction other than being the last known person to see her and not believing his story. -Knowledge of the argument? -The police interview? -Evidence of the glasses? -Knowledge of the private investigator findings? -Person coming forward who said the ring is in BF/F possession? If LE had enough to confirm the BF/F was a suspect, what would they have done to squeeze out a confession without a body?"

Very good points. Having an argument and being the last know person to see her would look suspicious. It is understandable for some to think that way. But as far as the glasses, not sure, he did inform her parents of the glasses and the argument. As far as the ring it could be debated, (since we have no clue what the argument was about) that she broke up with him and gave him the ring back? Just guessing here as usual since we don't have facts. I still find it strange that a better story was not fabricated, really, several stories could be made up, ones that did not even include the fight. No one else would know about this fight if they were the only two in the car, right? Unless they were double dating with another couple who were in the car, or meeting them there, who else would know they had a fight? ....it would be so easy if we were aware of a violent history between the two, but we were told there was no history of this type. Sure would make it cut and dry.

 

[alliemay]

Someone who remembers her from HS described her as sweet and quiet. Her friend has said that she "usually just went along" with what the BF wanted to do. Also that she would not have "a clue" as to what to do to start a new life. I have a feeling that she might have "usually just went along" with not just the BF but with other people in her life as well. I do believe she was sweet and quite, so it makes me wonder what it was that made Sylvia show the bolder side of herself. The fight at the pool party, having a puss on during the shopping trip, the supposed fight with the BF. Did something happen in her life that made her realize that she just didn't want to "go along" with what everyone else wanted for her anymore. Another person suggested I ask the BF. I really find it hard to believe that law enforcement would not have told the family if they questioned the BF. I'm sure the family would have asked, "can you tell me if he was ever questioned?"

 

[Jmoose]

I don't think there is any good reason why LE would withhold the fact that they had questioned BF/F, if they had-or at least I can't think of one. I can't imagine that they did not try to talk to him. But then, why do our VIs feel strongly that LE did not?

 

[alliemay]

I can't figure that one out unless they were told by LE that he was questioned and the VI's do not think that he was questioned enough or more times. Or maybe they were not happy with or did not agree with what LE told them. I wish they would verify if they even asked the police if he was questioned.

 

[rosemadderlake]

It makes sense that LE would have told the Lwowskis that they questioned the BF/F, or were following up, especially after the ADA was called in. Why then is it not a part of the whole story here on WS?

We have heard there was “no investigation”. –Maybe, that there was no “criminal investigation” is the more precise dispute. Ok, I can understand that, so why not provide all the facts?

Did LE try to assure Eva with the statistics that most return home, that this is temporary? Sylvia is over 21 and to understand that to publicize her disappearance would be something the Lwowskis could not reverse?

Did LE assume that ‘missing equals voluntary missing’, in the runaway ‘70’s?

It seems so re: Gloria Chait's initial experience with LE in 1972, even though ‘she knew it was very serious’.
"At first, the police tried to assure the Chaits that Mr. Chait’s absence was voluntary and temporary, so the couple searched for him on their own."
NY Times 2007

Imo: There is nothing further from the truth than misinterpreted or missing facts. For Sylvia, it may take a few generations before the untold story surfaces. I almost think it is a good idea to contact the BF/F directly but I would say proceed with caution…

 

[Jmoose]

There is a reason why the ones searching for Sylvia have not tried to speak to BF/F in the last few years, I think. In the case of the police, it's possibly to do with jurisdiction, and for her brother and her friend, possible legal ones. I wish we knew for sure.

I wonder why the police in the 70's were so quick to assure families that a loved one's disappearance was "voluntary and temporary"? Was it so widespread at that time? I remember a made-for-tv movie from that time called "Maybe I'll Come Home In the Spring" starring Sally Field-she was a hippie girl who left with some charismatic hippie boy. Somehow, I don't see Sylvia as that type of girl. The little we know about her seems to contradict this picture of Sylvia as a flower child (and 1975 was a little late for that anyway-on the cusp of disco). I don't understand why the police didn't tend to think that such a disappearance was suspicious?

 

[alliemay]

Yes there are a lot of cases where police assumed the person was a run-a-way. That's very sad. The 70's had a lot going on. The war was over, I think in 72, not sure. Boy's who came back as men. I believe in NY the drinking age was 18 at the time, I'll have to find a link for that one though. In someone's memory, "Keg parties in Great Kills park". Or "parking" in Great Kills park. There was the disco scene as you mention, and some sort of sexual revolution all thought I'm not really sure what that means. Experimenting I guess with different lifestyles.

I also do not see Sylvia as a "flower child". But I also see her as someone who may have been, at some times anyway, the follower not the leader, but still not straying to far away from what she felt comfortable with.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Posts trimmed by me:

I have been thinking a lot about her the last few days. It seems that she may have been somewhat dependent on the people in her life. Ride's to school with her Dad or her friend. Did she not have a license, or did she have a license but just didn't have a car. Even the day she went missing she was dependent on her friend to take her shopping. She was nervous and had a "puss" on because she didn't want to be late for her date. I can imagine her frustration. You didn't drive yourself so you can't just leave you have to wait until others are ready before you can leave. Was she also mad at her friend when they parted? IF (big if) she did run from the BF's car, IF she was upset with her friend, maybe the friend had made comments about the BF, she wouldn't run to her house like she had in the past. She would have thought about going somewhere else maybe? Just a few thought out of many.

I also do not see Sylvia as a "flower child". But I also see her as someone who may have been, at some times anyway, the follower not the leader, but still not straying to far away from what she felt comfortable with.

FWIW, Skeet, I very much agree with your depiction of Sylvia in the two posts above. I do not think that SL vanished as a result of risky behaviors (e.g., drinking, drugs, running with a wild crowd, etc.) -- in spite of the relationship with Red. I think that -- up until this point in her life, at least -- she was very predictable. What did ASWDH say -- you could set your clock by her? I think she was serious, had serious interests.

But I do often wonder: What if she was thinking about stepping out of the mold? What if she was, as you suggest, tired of the limitations she placed on herself and thinking about another kind of change. What if she was just then, with the benefit of a little maturity, coming into herself? What is she was thinking in a way that led her to make some plans? Or want to change the plans she had with others?

I don't just mean thinking about ending her relationship with her BF/F. She may have wanted the people in her life to bend with her ideas, to start seeing their common plans a little differently -- so that things she wanted for herself could fit in with them. Sometimes the people around you like you the way you are, don't want you to change. And I don't just mean her BF/F -- any important person in her life (or even someone peripheral with a crazy streak) could have seen the way she was thinking as a threat to the life they envisioned for themselves.

Gets us nowhere, I know ... just a gut thing. Outside of running into Rand, or some other random unpredictable fate, it's the only way I could see something she "did" leading to her death.

 

[alliemay]

Glad to see you back GBMG ....

Quote: GBMG, "Gets us nowhere, I know ... just a gut thing. Outside of running into Rand, or some other random unpredictable fate, it's the only way I could see her doing something that led to her death."
__________________
I still have not given up on the theory of her running into someone that harmed her, but as far as Rand there is not enough information about his personal life and his whereabouts for that time frame. I get bits and pieces but nothing concrete. Could be because of the fact he changed his name from Frank Rashan to Andre Rand, and I think he also used aliases at other times. I've been reading every comment I can on the "memory" sites for Staten Island, I did come across one statement mentioning a homeless shelter on Richmond Avenue but I don't know how close it was to the area she went missing from.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Glad to see you back GBMG ....

Quote: GBMG, "Gets us nowhere, I know ... just a gut thing. Outside of running into Rand, or some other random unpredictable fate, it's the only way I could see her doing something that led to her death."
__________________
I still have not given up on the theory of her running into someone that harmed her, but as far as Rand there is not enough information about his personal life and his whereabouts for that time frame. I get bits and pieces but nothing concrete. Could be because of the fact he changed his name from Frank Rashan to Andre Rand, and I think he also used aliases at other times. I've been reading every comment I can on the "memory" sites for Staten Island, I did come across one statement mentioning a homeless shelter on Richmond Avenue but I don't know how close it was to the area she went missing from.

Thanks, Skeet

Yeah, short of a confession, or someone coming forward who saw her with someone, or remains that provide DNA evidence (would they at this date?), I'm not sure we would ever be able to answer the Rand (or random person like him) question. And yet the possibility looms, right? No answers. But your thoughts about who SL was hit home with me.

 

[alliemay]

I wonder if lack of personal was part of the reason why the police did not search for her like they should have?

"AS 40,000 public employees left the payroll in scorching July 1975, New Yorkers found tons of garbage rotting on their streets, thanks to a wildcat strike by the entire Sanitation Department, and they found no traffic cops on duty at rush hour, and they found dozens of day care, senior citizen and health centers closed."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/archives...75-chapter-422-article-1.937897#ixzz2jgyoH9xJ