OH - Annabelle Richardson, newborn, found in shallow grave, Carlisle, 7 May 2017 #2

[squareandrabbet]

I don't see anything that states Skylar has a mental illness. I thought maybe there would be a report from a Dr. and I didn't see anything.

If she was diagnosed with an eating disorder, then she has a mental illness, as EDs are defined as mental illnesses. We don't need a doctor's report to tell us what is going on when non-nauseated women repeatedly enter bathrooms to throw up; and I especially don't think we need a doctor's report when her aunt Vanessa is out in interviews confirming it and talking about Skylar exiting bathrooms with reddened post-purge eyes. It may not be "the mental illness you were looking to find"; but bulimia/anorexia is a mental illness, which is, IMO MOO, all the OP meant. Her family agrees she has an eating disorder; so, apparently, does the defense attorney, from their opening statement. I really don't think we need much more proof than that.

 

[Winterhike]

Okay, after mulling over the evidence presented during the first trial week, here are my thoughts for now. Warning, long (and slightly rambling) post incoming!



Okay, rambling post over! English is not my first language, so I hope I wasn't too incoherent in getting my points across!

Respectfully snipped by me for brevity. Thanks so much for taking the time to write this very comprehensive, sensible, useful post!

 

[Seattle1]

I don't know if you can answer this but what responsibility would a doctor have to a patient they thought they were at risk for self harm or seemed mentally unstable. If BSR was begging for BC to convince her mom she wasn't pregnant, at 32 or more weeks, and seemed like she could attempt an abortion on her own, does the doctor have a duty to get social services involved? I'm not passing the blame but if she acted the way she did in her police interview I would think she needs help immediately. Can doctors intervene in mental health or do they risk lawsuits?

Doctor testified that BSR refused pelvic exam, and much time was spent in consult with her including assessing her mental state, and alternatives to keeping her baby. Unfortunately, it was BSR-- by her own admission -- that refused to take their follow-up calls, and did not schedule return visit as discussed.

Physicians use clinical judgment to determine whether and when a particular case meets the requirement for reporting threats of harm to self/others. In situations in which it is not clear whether reporting is legally required, the situation will be analyzed for its benefit to the patient and to public safety

OB-GYN are trained to recognize women in danger of self harm, depression, and/or postpartum depression and needing treatment. I see no reason for the doctor to be questioned on his ethics here. If anything, he was also a victim of BSR's practiced manipulation. MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Well Im aghast that the detectives used her dads call to them to return Annabelles remains for a proper burial, and that doctors were sifting and poking Annabelle and they need her to tell them the truth so they can give her the baby's remains back, & how he believes the baby was alive even for just a few minutes, he knows she wouldnt harm the baby, but wasnt she alive? Mentioning her gurgling 9 times...AND telling her they have proof that the baby was burned and it will look better if she explains how she was cremated, as opposed to say, she just through her into a fire.
Basically, help us help you get your baby's remains back. Tell us what we want to hear.
This does bother.

Is your post based on opening statements?

If not, what is your source for these factual statements as I don't recall reading any of it. Thank you.

 

[Winterhike]

And I don't think she looked at all anorexic when pregnant. She looked curvy.

This is a small point probably not known to most people who haven't had a lot of EDO (eating disorder) treatment experience, but there isn't one way to "look anorexic." A person using anorexic behaviors and experiencing symptoms may be on the way up or down from a low or high weight, just for one example. A lot of weight restoration is invisible because you have to put back on all the weight you may or may not have lost from your internal organs, such as heart muscle. Anorexic people who appear of normal weight can still have many of the same risk factors for death, including abnormal cardiac function.
I think we've seen some evidence that BSR had some noticeable fluctuations in weight throughout her adolescence, but we haven't seen her look clearly emaciated -- and that doesn't mean her eating disorder wasn't or isn't serious or life-threatening. I bet that if she had been nourishing herself adequately throughout the pregnancy, her belly at the time of prom would have been much bigger.
Now did any of that cause the baby to be stillborn? That I don't know (my opinion is no, I think the baby was born small but alive).

I've seen a screenshot of her instagram account that describes her as ED N.O.S - which is eating disorder, not otherwise specified. Meaning she didn't have pure anorexia or bulimia.

ED-NOS is currently often used to label an eating disorder that doesn't fit in the clinical definition of either anorexia or bulimia. This often means a patient is switching back and forth between mostly restricting or mostly purging, which tends to happen a lot with people in weight-restoration focused treatment. It is also commonly used when someone fits all of the criteria for anorexia nervosa except their BMI is higher than the diagnostic threshold (usually in the 16-17 range depending on the other criteria). This is currently mostly a workaround to get insurance companies to pay for treatment even as weight restoration continues, or before patients reach deathly low weights, as statistics for recovery are improved in either situation if treatment can proceed.

Anorexia Nervosa: ICD Criteria

I don't see anything that states Skylar has a mental illness. I thought maybe there would be a report from a Dr. and I didn't see anything.

Not only are eating disorders absolutely mental illnesses listed in the DSM-5, anorexia nervosa has the highest mortality rate of any psychological disorder.

Focus on anorexia nervosa: modern psychological treatment and guidelines for the adolescent patient

NIMH » Eating Disorders

 

[Niner]

Monday, Sept. 9th:
*Trial continues (Day 5) (@ 8:45am ET) - OH - A few hours old baby girl Annabelle “Baby Jane Doe” (May 7, 2017, Carlisle, baby found buried on July 14, 2017) - *Brooke 'Skylar' Richardson (18/now 20) arrested (8/4/17), charged & indicted (8/4/17) & arraigned (8/7/17) on multiple felony charges including aggravated murder (special felony,) involuntary manslaughter (1st degree felony), endangerment of child (3rd degree felony), tampering with evidence (3rd degree felony), & gross abuse of corpse (5th degree felony); allegedly killing, burning & burying her newborn baby in backyard of her Carlisle home. Free on $50K bond. House arrest & is placed on a curfew from 9pm to 7am, GPS monitoring, random drug tests & unannounced home visits will continue & surrendered passport.
Trial began on Sept. 3, 2019 (to 9/13/19 on court site). Jury selection began 9/3/19 with an initial jury pool of 70 people.
Trial information from 9/3/19 (Day 1) thru 9/5/19 (Day 3) reference post #684 here:
OH - Annabelle Richardson, newborn, found in shallow grave, Carlisle, 7 May 2017 *mother arrested*
9/6/19 Day 4: State witnesses: Dr. Susan Brown (forensic pathologist and the Montgomery County Coroner's Office). Dr. Krista Lathan (University of Ind. forensic anthropologist). Dr. William"Kim" Brady (fetal medical specialist). Trial continues on 9/9.



Anyone know the make up of the jurors? I thought I had that, but I don't.... TIA!

 

[Winterhike]

Monday, Sept. 9th:
*Trial continues (Day 5) (@ 8:45am ET) - OH - A few hours old baby girl Annabelle “Baby Jane Doe” (May 7, 2017, Carlisle, baby found buried on July 14, 2017) - *Brooke 'Skylar' Richardson (18/now 20) arrested (8/4/17), charged & indicted (8/4/17) & arraigned (8/7/17) on multiple felony charges including aggravated murder (special felony,) involuntary manslaughter (1st degree felony), endangerment of child (3rd degree felony), tampering with evidence (3rd degree felony), & gross abuse of corpse (5th degree felony); allegedly killing, burning & burying her newborn baby in backyard of her Carlisle home. Free on $50K bond. House arrest & is placed on a curfew from 9pm to 7am, GPS monitoring, random drug tests & unannounced home visits will continue & surrendered passport.
Trial began on Sept. 3, 2019 (to 9/13/19 on court site). Jury selection began 9/3/19 with an initial jury pool of 70 people.
Trial information from 9/3/19 (Day 1) thru 9/5/19 (Day 3) reference post #684 here:
OH - Annabelle Richardson, newborn, found in shallow grave, Carlisle, 7 May 2017 *mother arrested*
9/6/19 Day 4: State witnesses: Dr. Susan Brown (forensic pathologist and the Montgomery County Coroner's Office). Dr. Krista Lathan (University of Ind. forensic anthropologist). Dr. William"Kim" Brady (fetal medical specialist). Trial continues on 9/9.



Anyone know the make up of the jurors? I thought I had that, but I don't.... TIA!

7 women, 5 men on the jury.

Jury of seven women, five men seated in Brooke Skylar Richardson trial

 

[gitana1]

You need to be at least 37 weeks out of 40 weeks to be considered term. And there can still be issues with babies 3 weeks early. When was she seen in April? That's only 1 week into the month of May.

I am honestly shocked you think she looked "curvy" in her pregnancy photos. She's hands down one of the tiniest pregnant women I've ever seen. The only other one that small I've seen was also one of the thinnest woman I ever knew and suspected had an eating disorder. You could only start to guess she was pregnant based on belly size a few weeks before she gave birth.

Even very thin women I know have MUCH larger and more obvious bellies by that stage. I would find it very hard to believe she was not still drastically restricting eating even though she'd clearly put on weight.

A known eating disorder is going to be a much greater risk factor than something more generalized than African American or over 35 years of age as well.

She sure isn't thin. And I guess I'm not the only one:

"Prom was May 5, and Skylar and Brandon posed for pictures at the Richardsons' home before heading to the dance with friends. Vanessa sighs looking at the photo that went viral after the first reports about Skylar's case came out, the photo of Skylar in her tight-fitting prom dress just a day or two before she would give birth. "In hindsight, she does have a bump. We are hating ourselves for that now," she says. "But at the time, we just thought she was eating good and not making herself throw up. She looked curvy and radiant.""
Brooke Skylar Richardson Stillborn Baby Murder Trial - Teen Charged With Killing Infant

My friend had a baby at age 17. About what she looked like. You couldn't tell at all from the back. She had been very thin prior. Her kid was about 6.5 pounds.

 

[MyBelle]

Doctor testified that BSR refused pelvic exam, and much time was spent in consult with her including assessing her mental state, and alternatives to keeping her baby. Unfortunately, it was BSR-- by her own admission -- that refused to take their follow-up calls, and did not schedule return visit as discussed.

Physicians use clinical judgment to determine whether and when a particular case meets the requirement for reporting threats of harm to self/others. In situations in which it is not clear whether reporting is legally required, the situation will be analyzed for its benefit to the patient and to public safety

OB-GYN are trained to recognize women in danger of self harm, depression, and/or postpartum depression and needing treatment. I see no reason for the doctor to be questioned on his ethics here. If anything, he was also a victim of BSR's practiced manipulation. MOO

BBM. You state that as fact but I don't know that it is true. I do know from my experience working at a school of medicine/teaching hospital, that OB-GYN are are a sub-specialty of surgery but I don't know how trained they are in psychology and diagnosing mental illness of their patients. I doubt what you say is true because specialists refer their patients to other specialists all the time. Andrea Yates' OB certainly didn't protect her children and but I'm betting they referred her to psychiatrists.

In many states, severe mental instability of the mother is grounds for a late-term abortion but I don't know what the law in Ohio was at the time. At this point, there is no question that once BSR found out she really was pregnant, she did not want the baby. I think not wanting the baby is the primary reason women seek abortions. The SCOTUS gives them that right. There is no question BSR had a severe eating disorder which is a symptom of mental illness and would be in her medical records. Showing BSR the ultrasound and heartbeat are what some states now require in their abortion laws. What I would like to know is whether that medical practice ever performed abortions for any patient or if they referred them to another doctor.

The decision for an abortion can't be ever easy on a mother but one common factor always seems present is that the mother wants the pregnancy to end. I think the OB-GYN doctors in this case are on a precarious, slippery slope of ethics. Sending that email to her mother was a violation of HIPAA.

JMO

 

[gitana1]

I don't know if you can answer this but what responsibility would a doctor have to a patient they thought they were at risk for self harm or seemed mentally unstable. If BSR was begging for BC to convince her mom she wasn't pregnant, at 32 or more weeks, and seemed like she could attempt an abortion on her own, does the doctor have a duty to get social services involved? I'm not passing the blame but if she acted the way she did in her police interview I would think she needs help immediately. Can doctors intervene in mental health or do they risk lawsuits?

They can risk a lawsuit if they don't contact social services or consider a psych hold in the event that they feel someone is at risk of harm to themselves or others. He did seem to have concerns. He asked her if she had thoughts of harming herself or her baby.

 

[MyBelle]

She sure isn't thin. And I guess I'm not the only one:

"Prom was May 5, and Skylar and Brandon posed for pictures at the Richardsons' home before heading to the dance with friends. Vanessa sighs looking at the photo that went viral after the first reports about Skylar's case came out, the photo of Skylar in her tight-fitting prom dress just a day or two before she would give birth. "In hindsight, she does have a bump. We are hating ourselves for that now," she says. "But at the time, we just thought she was eating good and not making herself throw up. She looked curvy and radiant.""
Brooke Skylar Richardson Stillborn Baby Murder Trial - Teen Charged With Killing Infant

My friend had a baby at age 17. About what she looked like. You couldn't tell at all from the back. She had been very thin prior. Her kid was about 6.5 pounds.

Eating fattening foods doesn't mean they were nutritional to the fetus. BSR could have been loading up on sweets and fats. She sure didn't look 9 mo. pregnant in her prom dress. If whatever she was ingesting was nutritional, her bump would have reflected a 9 mo pregnancy.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

DBM, because I'm going through the thread, there are two media articles that are different. One media article says the ultrasound was done, one media article says it was not done. I'll have to continue through the thread to see if we finally figured it out. Carry on

 

[Fidobell]

Oh my goodness. Whilst I was able to clearly see her neat bump in the face on prom photo , this side shot shows a 3rd tri pregnancy , there for all to see . That was no secret either in the family or among friends . Also could not have been mistaken for healthier eating by S

 

[Seattle1]

And I wonder why didn't her mother question her when she got the EOB and Bill from the insurance company and or doctor about why there was an ultrasound?

After ACA and adult children up to age 26 allowed to remain on parents policy, privacy of the adult child became a big issue in my state, and EOB's for children over 18 are not shared with the parents (i.e., policy holder).

I'm not sure about Ohio but several states now have similar laws.

Also, since BSR gave birth less than 2 weeks after doctor visit, I wonder if insurance claim even processed by that time.

Privacy Protection in Billing and Health Insurance Communications

 

[gitana1]

This is a small point probably not known to most people who haven't had a lot of EDO (eating disorder) treatment experience, but there isn't one way to "look anorexic." A person using anorexic behaviors and experiencing symptoms may be on the way up or down from a low or high weight, just for one example. A lot of weight restoration is invisible because you have to put back on all the weight you may or may not have lost from your internal organs, such as heart muscle. Anorexic people who appear of normal weight can still have many of the same risk factors for death, including abnormal cardiac function.
I think we've seen some evidence that BSR had some noticeable fluctuations in weight throughout her adolescence, but we haven't seen her look clearly emaciated -- and that doesn't mean her eating disorder wasn't or isn't serious or life-threatening. I bet that if she had been nourishing herself adequately throughout the pregnancy, her belly at the time of prom would have been much bigger.
Now did any of that cause the baby to be stillborn? That I don't know (my opinion is no, I think the baby was born small but alive).



ED-NOS is currently often used to label an eating disorder that doesn't fit in the clinical definition of either anorexia or bulimia. This often means a patient is switching back and forth between mostly restricting or mostly purging, which tends to happen a lot with people in weight-restoration focused treatment. It is also commonly used when someone fits all of the criteria for anorexia nervosa except their BMI is higher than the diagnostic threshold (usually in the 16-17 range depending on the other criteria). This is currently mostly a workaround to get insurance companies to pay for treatment even as weight restoration continues, or before patients reach deathly low weights, as statistics for recovery are improved in either situation if treatment can proceed.

Anorexia Nervosa: ICD Criteria




Not only are eating disorders absolutely mental illnesses listed in the DSM-5, anorexia nervosa has the highest mortality rate of any psychological disorder.

Focus on anorexia nervosa: modern psychological treatment and guidelines for the adolescent patient

NIMH » Eating Disorders

If someone like Eugenia Cooney survived for years looking like the attached I'm not buying that someone who has weight like this young woman is at serious risk of cardiac arrest. Or is majorly symptomatic. But I'm not a clinician.

I did know a young woman with bulimia who bled to death though, from accidentally puncturing her throat after going into the bathroom and using a toothbrush to make herself vomit. She had locked the door. The blood leaked out from under the door.

But the discussion is about whether Skylar was so underweight/sick such that she had a greater risk of having a stillborn.

 

[gitana1]

Eating fattening foods doesn't mean they were nutritional to the fetus. BSR could have been loading up on sweets and fats. She sure didn't look 9 mo. pregnant in her prom dress. If whatever she was ingesting was nutritional, her bump would have reflected a 9 mo pregnancy.

I don't think that's true. Younger women can often not show much. I recall that from my pregnant friend. She was small. Kid was pretty average weight.

There were a few of my sccoolmates who got pregnant in high school actually and many were pretty small. I don't recall any looking like a typical pregnant woman. Maybe I'm not remembering it well. But that's what I recall.

Teen mum has no idea she is pregnant until she suddenly gives birth to 7lb baby

 

[SassynOz]

A previous post about BSR being on her parents health insurance made me wonder... would the internal ultrasound be shown on the statement and or EOB? Mom didn't notice?

I know medical codes are used for billing purposes, but there is also an explanation (often abbreviated but usually readable) for procedures.

Maybe neither of the parents saw the statement or if they did they thought an internal ultrasound was a "standard" test and never questioned it?

Well my daughter as all my kids are on our insurances until age 25 .The statements come to us. Due to that I caught my daughter in a huge lie about a medical procedure she claimed she had. I wasn’t shocked because my kid as a history of lying big lies. But we cover her or did so it’s pretty easy to know what was really done vs what she claimed. Confronting her does no good she still lies. The insurance statements papers are pretty clear on what was done. At least ours are it’s not in medical code.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

ITA. I hope it bothers the jury as much as it does us. Holding the baby's remains hostage and embellishing it with the "sifting and poking" of her remains until the teen told cops what they wanted to hear is wayyyyyy over the line. Especially because this second interrogation took place AFTER the doctor informed them she was wrong about the burning. They were trying to get her to admit the baby was born alive so the murder charge would be justified.

JMO

Just a clarification. The second interview happened because dr. Murray told LE the bones appeared after the first interview. Moo. That is why the police asked for the second interview, and went back to the scene to collect more of the excavation because they were headed in a different direction.

After the first interview, they did a press release (per defense opening,
Which has not come into evidence I don't believe but I have no reason to doubt) and said that the baby was stillborn until they got the notification from Doctor Murray about the bones being charred.

It was way down the line that Doctor Murray did a retraction and dr. Latham supported such.

Moo

I still can't believe that the parents sent her in for the second interview without a lawyer!

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Is your post based on opening statements?

If not, what is your source for these factual statements as I don't recall reading any of it. Thank you.

They were done during opening statements, and the defense buttressed it and showed Clips for each of those statements, so I would consider it evidence.

We expect the second interview to be shown this week. From which the clips were taken.

 

[SassynOz]

After ACA and adult children up to age 26 allowed to remain on parents policy, privacy of the adult child became a big issue in my state, and EOB's for children over 18 are not shared with the parents (i.e., policy holder).

I'm not sure about Ohio but several states now have similar laws.

Also, since BSR gave birth less than 2 weeks after doctor visit, I wonder if insurance claim even processed by that time.

Privacy Protection in Billing and Health Insurance Communications

We certainly got a statement for my daughter.