OH - Pike County: 8 people from one family dead as police hunt for killer(s) #19

[CSIDreamer]

Lord, you asked a mountain of questions in your post! But, that's why we're here. We all have concerns about JJ, the former PCSD who is facing two counts of murder. May be drawing straws on this one, but alot of us wonder if he doesn't have his hands in these murders too.
The autopsy reports would give everyone a good idea as to what time the murders occurred, and since 7 of the 8 were shot multiple times, we're all trying to make sense of that. We have no idea how many shooters are involved, how many calibers the guns were, and why were some of the victims who were reportedly shot in their sleep were shot anywhere from two to five times? Personal vendetta, disliked this person more than that person, felt like some people were more at fault than others...We all feel like there is important info in the autopsy reports that might lead us in the right direction to figuring out the why and how of many questions. So far, they have withheld all but one of the incident reports, all of the personal info on who rec'd how many bullets, with the exception of Chris, who rec'd nine, Gary who rec'd three, and Dana, two. Gary's dad was told by somebody at the funeral home he had three shots to the head, Chris was the only person who had shots on his torso, and one limb, two shots to the head. The cousin who found Kenny stated he had one **** to the head.
LE is sealing everything that is important or might be important away from the family and public. The majority of the sealed info is supposed to be available as public info, and LE keeps saying that they don't THINK these reports are for public viewing, although the state laws say they are...

I agree about getting those autopsy reports as far as TOD information.

I'm not really in agreement we "all" have concerns about JJ. Or even half of "us". JJ is so far down on my list, he isn't even there. I could be 100% wrong but he strikes me as a sloppy drunk (at times!) rogue LE who has no idea whatsoever how to cover up a crime. I don't see him having the self control and intelligence, based on his previous accusations of crimes, it takes to pull off something like this. JMO.

 

[GTAWmom]

I agree about getting those autopsy reports as far as TOD information.

I'm not really in agreement we "all" have concerns about JJ. Or even half of "us". JJ is so far down on my list, he isn't even there. I could be 100% wrong but he strikes me as a sloppy drunk (at times!) rogue LE who has no idea whatsoever how to cover up a crime. I don't see him having the self control and intelligence, based on his previous accusations of crimes, it takes to pull off something like this. JMO.

I agree about JJ. All he came up with in the shooting of his neighbor is it was an accident.

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[CSIDreamer]

I have to say that it is just impossible for me to to have one theory as to who done it with out some details on the crime scene. With that said I feel like who ever was involved has some deep emotional things going on. Whether it grew from passion, jealousy, or money. I dont feel like they were all taken out and it was just business. If the person or persons where young the planning was a long time coming IF there is little to no evidence at the crime scene. On the other hand it could be that there is a great deal of evidence and if that the case I would think that it was passion and little planning. It's all in the details which I don't have. I read the whole thread (I believe) on Saturday. It was my first time checking out Websleuths and the first story I started to read up on. If there are other threads else where would someone be so kind as to direct me. I YouTubed and searched the web for articles and local forums for gossip all day yesterday. My mind is starving for new information.

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You probably saw this, but just to be safe. Those local forums for gossip ... you can't really talk about them here, or bring info over from them.

 

[GTAWmom]

Surely if there wasn't much thought put into trying to cover that up. Which maybe actually points to it being the truth in that case.

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[GTAWmom]

You probably saw this, but just to be safe. Those local forums for gossip ... you can't really talk about them here, or bring info over from them.

Yeah, I am aware of that. Thanks for looking out. I also take everything with a grain of salt.

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[CSIDreamer]

I actually think there were 4 LEO's involved. Any seasoned LEO can break into a home quite easily, knows how to not leave behind any evidence, is strong (I used to work out between 4-6 hours/day, every day - and I'm a girl who was a LEO), and is quite comfortable with firearms...

What do you think the motive is for the 4 LE to do this? *no sarcasm* Just asking.

 

[Everyday Grace]

18 pieces of evidence that had been sent to the BCI lab was information provided by DeWine and Reader very early in the investigation.

My recall is that was said on Saturday, April 23 in a press release or at one of the press conferences held that day, or both.

It was what they had collected for processing at that time and were reporting at that time.

The numbers increased as evidence collection continued into the following days.

It's all back there starting with Thread #1.

 

[sumzero]

You are missing the point. Still trying to explain her kill with a mob logic. Look at the reality of family killings. They are about pain and lust, rarely about greed.

And if we just look at the sequence of events, I would rather come with this order:

She was killed in her bed, so I would say she was the first killed in her house and others were collateral damage.

Same for HHG and FR, they were killed in bed. Their neighbors GR and CR were killed in their living room. So considering the noise made by the multiple shootings, who do you think were killed first? Who got up to see what was going on?

Not sure I understand your theory. You believe one of the young mothers was the primary target, that it was a crime of passion, basically, correct? And the others were killed because . . . ? IMO, it's easier to understand CR1, KR, and a couple of the others as primary targets and the young mothers as collateral damage, than vice versa.

 

[Betty P]

To take our discussions a little further, let's see if we can find any previous cases or any data supporting the theory of

1. an angry teenager

2. an angry acquaintance or family member

3. a female acquaintance or family member

4. someone who got angry with something that was posted on Facebook

5. angry or vengeful competitors in business, not connected to organized crime or law enforcement

6. a jilted lover, of any age or gender

Let's find any cases of mass murder committed by any of the above that fit the massacre of 8 Rhoden family members

1. Killed 8 family members at separate residences

2. Killed nearly all victims while in their sleep with the "double tap" method of shooting in the head

3. Left little or no evidence at the crime scene to implicate them

4. Took extensive steps to cover up their identity

5. Did not rouse the suspicion of anyone in the neighborhood or nearby community

6. Were able to enter homes without waking victims or rousing dogs

7. Were able to kill victims though the victims were heavily armed or had arms nearby

8. Were able to blend back into their communities and daily routines w/o exhibiting suspicious behavior

9. Didn't commit suicide afterwards

10. Didn't engage LE in a high speed chase or engage in other erratic, violent behavior

11. Didn't exhibit any signs of mental illness or instability before or after the crime

Personally, I'm not coming up with much. Anyone else?

 

[Betty P]

Not sure I understand your theory. You believe one of the young mothers was the primary target, that it was a crime of passion, basically, correct? And the others were killed because . . . ? IMO, it's easier to understand CR1, KR, and a couple of the others as primary targets and the young mothers as collateral damage, than vice versa.

And that the perp who killed the family because of passionate anger towards one of the young members was able to talk others into help with this crime? And that the person who was angry / jealous enough to kill 8 people just went home and resumed his life without showing any signs of an emotional breakdown or exhibited unusual behavior, didn't say anything suspicious to anyone else, as did the others who helped him?

Most people who engage in mass murder as a crime of passion end up committing suicide afterwards. At minimum, they pack up and disappear, leave town, etc.

 

[CSIDreamer]

To take our discussions a little further, let's see if we can find any previous cases or any data supporting the theory of

1. an angry teenager

2. an angry acquaintance or family member

3. a female acquaintance or family member

4. someone who got angry with something that was posted on Facebook

5. angry or vengeful competitors in business, not connected to organized crime or law enforcement

6. a jilted lover, of any age or gender

Let's find any cases of mass murder committed by any of the above that fit the massacre of 8 Rhoden family members

1. Killed 8 family members at separate residences

2. Killed nearly all victims while in their sleep with the "double tap" method of shooting in the head

3. Left little or no evidence at the crime scene to implicate them

4. Took extensive steps to cover up their identity

5. Did not rouse the suspicion of anyone in the neighborhood or nearby community

6. Were able to enter homes without waking victims or rousing dogs

7. Were able to kill victims though the victims were heavily armed or had arms nearby

8. Were able to blend back into their communities and daily routines w/o exhibiting suspicious behavior

9. Didn't commit suicide afterwards

10. Didn't engage LE in a high speed chase or engage in other erratic, violent behavior

11. Didn't exhibit any signs of mental illness or instability before or after the crime

Personally, I'm not coming up with much. Anyone else?

Not much here either. Which is why I'm now swinging towards cartel/mob/professional hit. I mean, there's just no explanation for this that will neatly fit in my mind.

Well, other than one relative that I've just plain taken a hearty dislike to. My personal feelings may be coloring my suspicion.

 

[Betty P]

Not much here either. Which is why I'm now swinging towards cartel/mob/professional hit. I mean, there's just no explanation for this that will neatly fit in my mind.

Well, other than one relative that I've just plain taken a hearty dislike to. My personal feelings may be coloring my suspicion.

An example of a somewhat similar case I came across recently was the Wonderland Murders.

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-14/local/me-1912_1_sharon-holmes

In that case, 4 people were bludgeoned to death late one night in a home in Los Angeles. They were drug dealers/petty criminals, killed by an organized crime boss (Eddie Nash) in the drug trade. The notorious actor, John Holmes, was involved in the murders, but allegedly didn't kill anyone. When he later confessed to his wife, he told her that the drug kingpin (Nash) found out Holmes had assisted the Wonderland Ave drug dealers break into the kingpin's house to steal drugs. Instead of killing Holmes, Nash made him identify the Wonderland Ave. druggies and take a group of hired killers to their home.

Holmes states he took the hired killers to the Wonderland Ave home, got them to let him inside, then stood there while the hired killers did their work. Holmes left a bloody handprint at the scene. Police surmised more than one killer was involved and arrested Holmes to get more information. Though LE was able to figure out who did the killings, they never had enough evidence to secure a guilty verdict against Holmes or Eddie Nash.

That scenario seems similar - an organized crime leader wanting revenge against drug dealers who wronged him forcing an acquaintance of theirs to accompany hired killers to the residence. Only this time, it seems they left no useful evidence. One scenario I still think about is that the person who helped set up the killings ended up a victim at the end. Another would be LE, who was already familiar with the family and the other is that it was someone who lived out of town and somehow escaped the attention of LE.

It would take a real pro to help set up a massacre like that and remain calm enough to not reveal their involvement or give away anything to LE.

ETA: Adding link to WS topic of Wonderland Murders

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...les-29-June-1981&highlight=wonderland+murders

 

[kbpirate]

Not sure I understand your theory. You believe one of the young mothers was the primary target, that it was a crime of passion, basically, correct? And the others were killed because . . . ? IMO, it's easier to understand CR1, KR, and a couple of the others as primary targets and the young mothers as collateral damage, than vice versa.

Totally agree!

 

[rsd1200]

You are missing the point. Still trying to explain her kill with a mob logic. Look at the reality of family killings. They are about pain and lust, rarely about greed.

And if we just look at the sequence of events, I would rather come with this order:

She was killed in her bed, so I would say she was the first killed in her house and others were collateral damage.

Same for HHG and FR, they were killed in bed. Their neighbors GR and CR were killed in their living room. So considering the noise made by the multiple shootings, who do you think were killed first? Who got up to see what was going on?

I can see the collateral damage theory. However, I think that CR1 & GR was where the assailant's plan hit a snag. They were either not expecting both to be there, or were not expecting one, (or possibly both) to be awake, which would account for the bloody mess and dragging of bodies (they were possibly killed much closer to morning than we might think, and didn't want anyone to see outlines through the window (?) in the door, as they finished up and left out the back door). As for the the hearing of gunshots in the other homes, I just honestly don't believe they heard them. Being someone who has lived in the country, for the majority of my life, if I were awake, and heard gunshots at night, early morning, or, really any time, I'd not think anything about it really. I may just check the clock and think who is shooting at this hour?, or I'd guess they were shooting at raccoons, or maybe even a bear, on digging through their garbage cans. But, with the shots being fired indoors, the likelihood that they even heard them, is pretty slim. Those two trailers are over 250' from each other, and then you have the trailer walls for the sound to reverberate off of inside, plus, any sound that does escape the trailer, is then further diminished by the trees, brush, the other building between the two trailers, and then, getting through the other trailer's exterior walls. I have neighbors down that road who target shoot quite often. They live just a bit over a mile away, as the crow flies, yet I don't hear them. DR's trailer was just a bit under a mile from the CR1/GR trailer, again, as the crow flies, and those shots were indoors. Based on the way sound travels, and my own experiences from living around an area where gunshots are common, and enjoying target practice at my own home as well (no one has ever called LE, nor checked on us to see if we're okay), I just don't think gunshots woke anyone up, and if they did, they likely thought nothing of them.

 

[kbpirate]

An example of a somewhat similar case I came across recently was the Wonderland Murders.

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-14/local/me-1912_1_sharon-holmes

In that case, 4 people were bludgeoned to death late one night in a home in Los Angeles. They were drug dealers/petty criminals, killed by an organized crime boss (Eddie Nash) in the drug trade. The notorious actor, John Holmes, was involved in the murders, but allegedly didn't kill anyone. When he later confessed to his wife, he told her that the drug kingpin (Nash) found out Holmes had assisted the Wonderland Ave drug dealers break into the kingpin's house to steal drugs. Instead of killing Holmes, Nash made him identify the Wonderland Ave. druggies and take a group of hired killers to their home.

Holmes states he took the hired killers to the Wonderland Ave home, got them to let him inside, then stood there while the hired killers did their work. Holmes left a bloody handprint at the scene. Police surmised more than one killer was involved and arrested Holmes to get more information. Though LE was able to figure out who did the killings, they never had enough evidence to secure a guilty verdict against Holmes or Eddie Nash.

That scenario seems similar - an organized crime leader wanting revenge against drug dealers who wronged him forcing an acquaintance of theirs to accompany hired killers to the residence. Only this time, it seems they left no useful evidence. One scenario I still think about is that the person who helped set up the killings ended up a victim at the end. Another would be LE, who was already familiar with the family and the other is that it was someone who lived out of town and somehow escaped the attention of LE.

It would take a real pro to help set up a massacre like that and remain calm enough to not reveal their involvement or give away anything to LE.

ETA: Adding link to WS topic of Wonderland Murders

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...les-29-June-1981&highlight=wonderland+murders

The Wonderland Murders definitely show that fact is stranger than fiction. It's hard to rule out anything in a situation like the Rhoden murders!

 

[GTAWmom]

Just to clarify, In the press conference where they explained that there were 18 pieces of evidence collected, he never referred to that as very little evidence. He did go on to say, it was premeditated and planned out and they tried to hinder the investigation. Which he emphasized later that they TRIED to hinder the investigation, as with any crime premeditated that is naturally the case. You dont plan out a crime without thinking of trying to leave no evidence. That is the reasoning for planning. To try to get away with it. He also went on to say it has not stopped or hindered the investigation.
Evidence is not considered great by just the number of pieces but the quality of what is found.
Another thing I would like to mention is with how tight lipped they are being. They admitted they want to keep all results from public knowledge. It could be a plausible that this info of it being a well thought out well planned exicution could be deliberate misinformation to keep what they really believe from the murderer or murderers. They don't want any of their progress publicly known.

https://youtu.be/DuIxUnk8gmo

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[Betty P]

Just to clarify, In the press conference where they explained that there were 18 pieces of evidence collected, he never referred to that as very little evidence. He did go on to say, it was premeditated and planned out and they tried to hinder the investigation. Which he emphasized later that they TRIED to hinder the investigation, as with any crime premeditated that is naturally the case. You dont plan out a crime without thinking of trying to leave no evidence. That is the reasoning for planning. To try to get away with it. He also went on to say it has not stopped or hindered the investigation.
Evidence is not considered great by just the number of pieces but the quality of what is found.
Another thing I would like to mention is with how tight lipped they are being. They admitted they want to keep all results from public knowledge. It could be a plausible that this info of it being a well thought out well planned exicution could be deliberate misinformation to keep what they really believe from the murderer or murderers. They don't want any of their progress publicly known.

https://youtu.be/DuIxUnk8gmo

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Thanks, I understand your point. When I referred to quality of evidence, I meant evidence that would lead to an arrest. We know the shell casings from guns used were some of the initial evidence. They would be helpful if LE can find the weapons, but it's not enough to lead them to the shooters. As for all the other evidence gathered since then, if anything like fingerprints or DNA pointed to one of the killers, LE would have made an arrest. According to DeWine, the killers did make sure they did things to hinder the investigation. And so far, the investigation has been hindered.

 

[GTAWmom]

Thanks, I understand your point. When I referred to quality of evidence, I meant evidence that would lead to an arrest. We know the shell casings from guns used were some of the initial evidence. They would be helpful if LE can find the weapons, but it's not enough to lead them to the shooters. As for all the other evidence gathered since then, if anything like fingerprints or DNA pointed to one of the killers, LE would have made an arrest. According to DeWine, the killers did make sure they did things to hinder the investigation. And so far, the investigation has been hindered.

Not necessarily and not that I disagree. As they stated they want a solid conviction not just an arrest. The fact is we just don't know. My last post wasn't in reply to yours but to a few others.

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[GTAWmom]

Thanks, I understand your point. When I referred to quality of evidence, I meant evidence that would lead to an arrest. We know the shell casings from guns used were some of the initial evidence. They would be helpful if LE can find the weapons, but it's not enough to lead them to the shooters. As for all the other evidence gathered since then, if anything like fingerprints or DNA pointed to one of the killers, LE would have made an arrest. According to DeWine, the killers did make sure they did things to hinder the investigation. And so far, the investigation has been hindered.

He said the killer "tried" to hide or do things that would hinder the investigation. And quite frankly we don't know at this point if it has but he said in the press conference that it hasn't. There maybe a reason for the delay. We can only make assumptions on what is going on.

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[Dudly]

To take our discussions a little further, let's see if we can find any previous cases or any data supporting the theory of

1. an angry teenager

2. an angry acquaintance or family member

3. a female acquaintance or family member

4. someone who got angry with something that was posted on Facebook

5. angry or vengeful competitors in business, not connected to organized crime or law enforcement

6. a jilted lover, of any age or gender

Let's find any cases of mass murder committed by any of the above that fit the massacre of 8 Rhoden family members

1. Killed 8 family members at separate residences

2. Killed nearly all victims while in their sleep with the "double tap" method of shooting in the head

3. Left little or no evidence at the crime scene to implicate them

4. Took extensive steps to cover up their identity

5. Did not rouse the suspicion of anyone in the neighborhood or nearby community

6. Were able to enter homes without waking victims or rousing dogs

7. Were able to kill victims though the victims were heavily armed or had arms nearby

8. Were able to blend back into their communities and daily routines w/o exhibiting suspicious behavior

9. Didn't commit suicide afterwards

10. Didn't engage LE in a high speed chase or engage in other erratic, violent behavior

11. Didn't exhibit any signs of mental illness or instability before or after the crime

Personally, I'm not coming up with much. Anyone else?

Is it possible the perp went out of state and jumped off a mountain or in a ravine with no ID and has not been found or identified and therefore can't be tied to this case?