OH - Three students killed in Chardon High School shooting, 27 Feb 2012

[gitana1]

I guess I don't understand bullying.Not everyone is liked by everyone.We are all different in our unique way.I think it is more of a low self esteem issue unless they are constantly being picked on.My son was picked on in elementary school by this one kid.I went to the school and talked to the counselor.She talked to both of them,come to find out this kid wanted to be friends with my son and thought my son didn't like him.They talked and everything was ok after they met and talked.

I was relentlessly bullied from about 6th grade through 8th. I was a strange kid and poor. I had poor clothes, my brother's hand-me-down toughskins, I;d wear Greek fisherman caps and railroad hats. I also acted goofy. I was funny but odd and the combination of that and my poor clothes made kids just want to kill me.

It went on every day. I had it from all sides. Groups of girls would surround me and try to humiliate me. They'd pick every single thing about me apart and then push me, threaten me, force me to fight them or some other, random person.

I was tiny for my age and I never fought anyone my size or smaller. I was scared witless.

I told my mom. Her response was, "Well, I'll come watch but you have to fight your own battles." She did come to my defense, though, when I broke a girl's nose and they wanted to suspend me. She told the school that I had been harassed for months and months by this girl and she was glad I stuck up for myself.

It ended when my brother told me to put a piece of glass between my knuckles and the next person who said the wrong thing to me, I should slash their face open. I went to school that day with glass between my knuckles ready to commit mayhem. Maybe it was my attitude then but no one bothered me that day, or the next. My fighting days were essentially over.

But I could have really hurt someone badly and that's not a good solution.

I am glad I went through it, though. Made me tough. Not afraid to fight for what's right, or to face a challenge. It also made me very independent. I never followed the herd because they wouldn't let me join! I'm glad they didn't!

 

[Inspector Gidget]

We can't speculate but maybe it WAS locked up and he knew how to get it. He's 17; he'd know well enough how to obtain a gun. And in Columbine, an 18 year old friend bought the gun for the boys.

I hope the 18 year old friend got charged for murder too.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I guess I don't understand bullying.Not everyone is liked by everyone.We are all different in our unique way.I think it is more of a low self esteem issue unless they are constantly being picked on.My son was picked on in elementary school by this one kid.I went to the school and talked to the counselor.She talked to both of them,come to find out this kid wanted to be friends with my son and thought my son didn't like him.They talked and everything was ok after they met and talked.

Yes, a bullying victim probably does have low self-esteem. If you were being insulted and tormented every day, I'm sure you would too. To imply that they are exaggerating what is happening to them because they are upset because not everyone likes them is not accurate at all. Most students know that there are other students who dislike them...and most probably don't care unless that student starts bullying them. We're talking about preteens and teens here...they will find the dumbest reason to not like someone...and most of them don't go into some bullying tirade against them. I think you learn by age 7 that there are going to be people who don't like you.

 

[Inspector Gidget]

Yes, a bullying victim probably does have low self-esteem. If you were being insulted and tormented every day, I'm sure you would too. To imply that they are exaggerating what is happening to them because they are upset because not everyone likes them is not accurate at all. Most students know that there are other students who dislike them...and most probably don't care unless that student starts bullying them. We're talking about preteens and teens here...they will find the dumbest reason to not like someone...and most of them don't go into some bullying tirade against them. I think you learn by age 7 that there are going to be people who don't like you.

I just don't understand why these bullies are tolerated and nothing being done.How does it get to this point? No child should have to go through this,someone is not helping solve these situations.A suspension might help in some way.When did these kids have all the rights? Are schools and parents not in control anymore?

 

[wfgodot]

Well, this is depressing:

Ohio shootings the latest in deadly month for nation's schools (Seattle Times)

This month alone, at least four shootings of students have occurred in schools across the country, including Monday's deadly attack outside Cleveland, Ohio.
---
On Feb. 10 in Walpole, N.H., a 14-year-old boy shot himself in the face in a crowded elementary-school cafeteria. The teen, who police said was upset by a "relationship issue," survived.

On Feb. 20, two teens wielding guns shot at a group of kids at a Murfreesboro, Tenn., school. A 14-year-old student was shot twice in the leg. The shootings allegedly stemmed from a dispute between two groups, police said.

On [Feb. 22], a .45-caliber handgun that a 9-year-old boy in Bremerton [WA] had stashed in his backpack accidentally discharged, critically wounding an 8-year-old girl in their elementary-school classroom. Police said the boy found the gun at his mother's house and brought it to school because he wanted to run away from home.
---

the rest of the ST story at link above

 

[rabidstoat]

I'm sure he'll end up tried as an adult. There are children much younger than 17 who are. And really, unless there are severe mental problems or severe emotional problems, a 17-year-old should know that shooting someone at close range is likely to kill them, and that death is permanent. It's true that the brains aren't fully developed, but that much really should be evident at a much younger age.

However! Because he's under 18, I am pretty positive that he can't be considered for the death penalty in any state, no matter what the circumstances or outcomes-- though not 100% positive, because I am not a lawyer.

Life without parole, however, might be a possibility; I'm not sure if it depends on the state, though. I believe there are prisoners in multiple states still serving for-real "life with no chance of parole" convictions for crimes committed as juveniles. I saw a documentary a year or so ago about this, and the controversy about whether minors should be denied ever having parole in their adult lives.

 

[mrsu]

A few have said the shooters' FB page has been taken down. I can still see it here:

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002040079941&sk=wall

 

[bellyup]

A few have said the shooters' FB page has been taken down. I can still see it here:

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002040079941&sk=wall

A lot of the postings that were there earlier are gone and it's been up and down off and on all day.

 

[brighidin]

I hope the 18 year old friend got charged for murder too.

She wasn't charged with anything.

I am glad I went through it, though. Made me tough. Not afraid to fight for what's right, or to face a challenge. It also made me very independent. I never followed the herd because they wouldn't let me join! I'm glad they didn't!

I meant to quote your earlier post about brain development, but don't want to go back because I will probably mess up the multi-quote function. I really appreciated that post, from a scientific perspective and from an emotional one.

I am 36 and have a 16 year old son and I really think that him and his friends are basically overgrown children. Some of them look like adults, but they really aren't. I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone. The alleged shooter looks so young, and the boy that was killed - such a sweet baby face!

 

[wfgodot]

A few have said the shooters' FB page has been taken down. I can still see it here:

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002040079941&sk=wall

It's made a comeback. Interesting. Was completely gone a few hours back. Still missing its videos and the essay thing. I wonder what the deal is.

 

[Storm]

I am glad I went through it, though. Made me tough. Not afraid to fight for what's right, or to face a challenge. It also made me very independent. I never followed the herd because they wouldn't let me join! I'm glad they didn't!

I went to 10 different schools by the time I was in the 7th grade. My parets divorced and my mother was a gypsy (not a real one)...we were poor and I can remember being made fun of because of my clothes..I was called Mophead because of my uncontrollable curly hair..and at every new school, I had to prove myself. The worst thing that ever happened to me was caused by adults. My mother took me to a new school with no old school records (6th grade)..they had 6th grade classes..1 for the smartest 2 for the average and 3 for the "dumb" ones. Without knowing a thing about me..I was put in the dumb class..and it was because of my clothes and the way I looked. It took me two weeks to get moved up and another month to get to #1. I am still embarrassed by that more than anything a kid ever said to me. My mother remarried when I was in the 7th grade and even though he was a sick alcoholic, he loved me and gave our family stability until I graduated from high school. 4 yrs in the same school and babysitting money to buy clothes..I thought I was in heaven..I've been married almost 34 yrs and have 3 sons..one is an Md..one works for Cisco and the other is working on his PHD.
I knew from a very young age that my life wasn't going to be like the life I was living. My point is..we are all a sum of every experience we have had in our lives. We can't blame all school shootings on any one thing..God bless those children and their community. ^i^

 

[Inspector Gidget]

I was relentlessly bullied from about 6th grade through 8th. I was a strange kid and poor. I had poor clothes, my brother's hand-me-down toughskins, I;d wear Greek fisherman caps and railroad hats. I also acted goofy. I was funny but odd and the combination of that and my poor clothes made kids just want to kill me.

It went on every day. I had it from all sides. Groups of girls would surround me and try to humiliate me. They'd pick every single thing about me apart and then push me, threaten me, force me to fight them or some other, random person.

I was tiny for my age and I never fought anyone my size or smaller. I was scared witless.

I told my mom. Her response was, "Well, I'll come watch but you have to fight your own battles." She did come to my defense, though, when I broke a girl's nose and they wanted to suspend me. She told the school that I had been harassed for months and months by this girl and she was glad I stuck up for myself.

It ended when my brother told me to put a piece of glass between my knuckles and the next person who said the wrong thing to me, I should slash their face open. I went to school that day with glass between my knuckles ready to commit mayhem. Maybe it was my attitude then but no one bothered me that day, or the next. My fighting days were essentially over.

But I could have really hurt someone badly and that's not a good solution.

I am glad I went through it, though. Made me tough. Not afraid to fight for what's right, or to face a challenge. It also made me very independent. I never followed the herd because they wouldn't let me join! I'm glad they didn't!

I am so sorry this happened to you and I am glad it made you stronger.I think a lot of these bullies are bullied by one of their parents.I have seen this and it makes me ill.Parents are teachers and they need to watch what they plant in their own.

 

[wfgodot]

Cleveland Plain Dealer, whose coverage thus far has been a bit, er, ragged, published this about 40 minutes ago; some of the info here is linked variously upthread by good WS-ers who already did some digging:

Parents of teen accused of shootings faced charges

---
The father, Thomas Lane Jr., was known to county authorities because of a series of arrests for abusing women he had children with, court records show. It's not clear how much contact the father and son had.

But between 1995 and 1997 the boy's father and mother, Sara A. Nolan, were each charged with domestic violence against each other.

The father was later charged with assaulting a police officer and he served time in prison after trying to suffocate another woman he married several years after his son was born, according to court records.

He held the woman's head under running water and bashed it into a wall, leaving a dent in the dry wall, the court records said.
---

more at the link - though not much more on the parents; interesting enough, though, on T.J. Lane

 

[HMSHood]

I am so sorry this happened to you and I am glad it made you stronger.I think a lot of these bullies are bullied by one of their parents.I have seen this and it makes me ill.Parents are teachers and they need to watch what they plant in their own.

That is not surprising. Many evil figures were abused themselves. Just look at Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Saddam Hussein, or Osama bin Laden.

 

[HMSHood]

Cleveland Plain Dealer, whose coverage thus far has been a bit, er, ragged, published this about 40 minutes ago; some of the info here is linked variously upthread by good WS-ers who already did some digging:

Parents of teen accused of shootings faced charges

more at the link - though not much more on the parents; interesting enough, though, on T.J. Lane

From the link.
Fellow students said the 17-year-old was quiet. Some said he was sweet, while others said he had a simmering temper.

People did not truly know T.J. Lane until today.

 

[Spice]

I've read that prose piece he felt strongly enough about to make it the only thing of its kind he posted to his FB page, and perhaps the most telling thing about it is that it's written in one large paragraph, suggesting it was done by someone who has difficulty organizing his thoughts, and in presenting them in a manner which might attract an interested, appreciative audience.

Hi all! Thanks for such interesting posts.

His words reek of sociopathy...just like the most infamous school shooter who I will not name as I refuse to give him the attention.

Read that passage again. He has delusions of having ultimate power and squashing those beneath him who he deems inferior. He hates the world. Its all right there.

If you ever want to read the definitive book on Columbine. Read "Columbine" by Dave Cullen. It demystifies so much of the misinformation we have about that event and school shootings in general. He spent ten years researching and writing it. Those particular shooters were not even bullied. The media just ran with it and that has become the myth associated in every school shooting since. It's all much deeper than that. I'm not saying this kid was exactly like the shooters from Columbine, but his rant on facebook reeks of antisocial thoughts. He is all powerful, hates and detests everybody, and wants to kill them all.

Same exact themes from Columbine. Those who have read the book will know what I am saying. Those who have not....I highly suggest it. It is an incredibly informative and interesting read. I couldn't put it down.

And as far as video games and violence on TV..there is FAR too much of it in our culture. It is out of control. Kids are constantly bombarded with violent imagery and ideology. From the media, to video games, to just regular tv shows. But at the end of the day it is the responsibility of the parents to monitor/control what and how much they allow their kids to ingest. In this technological age it is almost impossible to do so. And research does show that chronic exposure to violent images and content does effect our psyches. We are very desensitized. And depending on who you are and what your existing issues may be....well let's just say it can definitely effect kids like TJ.

 

[bellyup]

Cleveland Plain Dealer, whose coverage thus far has been a bit, er, ragged, published this about 40 minutes ago; some of the info here is linked variously upthread by good WS-ers who already did some digging:

Parents of teen accused of shootings faced charges

more at the link - though not much more on the parents; interesting enough, though, on T.J. Lane

:waitasec: The reports from peers on TJ Lane's personality are all over the place. From just shocked that this sweet quiet kid would do this, no he was never bullied to he was evil, he was the bully !!! I'm :waitasec: at the wide range of discrepancy.

One thing is for sure, his parent(s) / home life wasn't the best and at some point he must have had some degree or either educational or behavioral issues to have been assigned to an alternative school for at risk students.

 

[HMSHood]

His words reek of sociopathy...just like the most infamous school shooter who I will not name as I refuse to give him the attention.

Read that passage again. He has delusions of having ultimate power and squashing those beneath him who he deems inferior. He hates the world. Its all right there.

If you ever want to read the definitive book on Columbine. Read "Columbine" by Dave Cullen. It ide mystifies so much of the misinformation we have about that event and school shootings in general. He spent ten years researching and writing it. Those particular shooters were not even bullied. The media just ran with it and that has become the myth associated in every school shooting since. It's all much deeper than that. I'm not saying this kid was exactly like the shooters from Columbine, but his rant on facebook reeks of antisocial thoughts. He is all powerful, hates and detests everybody, and wants to kill them all.

Same exact themes from Columbine. Those who have read the book will know what I am saying. Those who have not....I highly suggest it. It is an incredibly informative and interesting read. I couldn't put it down.

My impression about the Columbine killers are they were immature. Harris was a sadistic megalomaniac with a "god complex". Klebold was some lonely person easily influenced. Both have a history of behavior problems and bullied people. They were hatemongers. I thought they did it because they were angry at the federal government for throwing the books at Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Ted Kaczynski, and Ramzi Yousef. I would not be surprised if they admired them.

Eric Harris Profile
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/criminal-profiling/Columbine_Eric-Harris-profile.html

Dylan Klebold Profile
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/criminal-profiling/Columbine_Dylan-Klebold-profile.html

Harris has a lot in common with Seung-Hui Cho, Fred Phelps, Osama bin Laden, Gertrude Baniszewski, Kayla Narey, and Flannery Mullins. Klebold has a lot in common with Ashley Grills, Molly Wei, Austin Renaud, and Ashley Longe. Both are immature like Lori Drew, Casey Anthony, or Jerry Sandusky.

 

[doubt]

I've read that prose piece he felt strongly enough about to make it the only thing of its kind he posted to his FB page, and perhaps the most telling thing about it is that it's written in one large paragraph, suggesting it was done by someone who has difficulty organizing his thoughts, and in presenting them in a manner which might attract an interested, appreciative audience.

i felt the piece was quite well done but noticed the same issue you did.

unfortunately, i don't find it uncommon these days for the most gifted of teen writers to struggle when it comes to organizing the work. my kids' friends have fb walls filled with reflections that are, at times, quite insightful.....but also, difficult to read on account of they're one long paragraph.

did anyone notice that he linked to an article which talks about how to recognize depression in fb postings? i really get the feeling this kid might well have been begging for help in the only way he knew.

this past weekend i happened upon a movie on demand called ''beautiful boy.'' it was about a mass shooting committed by a college freshman. it told the tale from the point of view of the parents of the shooter. it was heartbreaking, and eye-opening.

 

[Spice]

My impression about the Columbine killers are they were immature. Harris was a sadistic megalomaniac with a "god complex". Klebold was some lonely person easily influenced. Both have a history of behavior problems and bullied people. They were hatemongers. I thought they did it because they were angry at the federal government for throwing the books at Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Ted Kaczynski, and Ramzi Yousef. I would not be surprised if they admired them.

Eric Harris Profile
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/criminal-profiling/Columbine_Eric-Harris-profile.html

Dylan Klebold Profile
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/criminal-profiling/Columbine_Dylan-Klebold-profile.html

Harris has a lot in common with Seung-Hui Cho, Fred Phelps, Osama bin Laden, Gertrude Baniszewski, Kayla Narey, and Flannery Mullins. Klebold has a lot in common with Ashley Grills, Molly Wei, Austin Renaud, and Ashley Longe. Both are immature like Lori Drew, Casey Anthony, or Jerry Sandusky.

Harris was a full blown sociopath. And you are correct, he was never bullied. He was a MAJOR bully. Klebold was suicidal and longed for a girlfriend and obsessively doodled hearts in his journal. He ultimately went dark under Harris's strong influence. In Cullen's book you find out that Klebold actually made a few feeble attempts to "stop" the shooting in the weeks before it occurred. But in the end, he was a follower and he truly wanted to die. That book blew my mind. The media got almost every single aspect of reporting wrong on Columbine. The incorrect information coming out during the chaos of the attacks stuck and still permeate our idea of school shootings to this day.

They were not in any "trench coat mafia" they were never bullied and they were not "outcasts."

In our violence obsessed culture, A sociopath and a suicidal teenager met and it was unfortunately the perfect storm. There are so many reasons that these shootings happen and its not about bullying. Its about mental illness, teenage issues, home environment, chronic exposure to violence, loopholes in gun laws. So many things contribute and we have to look at all of them and decide or try to make changes. Kids are dying in school shootings in alarming numbers. So disturbing.

Eric was showing signs of terror for years before columbine. The level of his sociopathy, his charm, his manipulations, were unreal. Brooks' mother was absolutely terrified of him. She warned the cops, she filed complaints. The police department dropped the ball years before the shootings happened and then spent years covering it up.

So so sad.