OK - Terence Crutcher, 40, fatally shot by Tulsa PD officer, 16 Sept 2016

  • #281
If the prosecutor really wants to get a conviction, perhaps he (she?) should offer a plea deal to unlawful discharge of a firearm, or amend the charges to include unlawful discharge of a firearm. That would effectively end her career as a LEO (which frankly, is over now anyway). And depending on the circumstances, the prosecutor could still get a felony conviction (though misdemeanor would be more likely).

It's really unfortunate the prosecutor rushed to charge, before the investigation was complete. But that is the trend now, it seems.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Unlawful-discharge-weapon.htm#

I just don't think there is any way, given this evidence, and the totality of the circumstances, that she will be convicted of manslaughter. JMO.

Oh-- and I don't agree that she was a "bad cop." I think she was terrified. That's a whole different situation than corruption, or sexual assault by a LEO. And it appears from the tox results, she had reason to be terrified. She may have made the wrong decision to shoot when she did, but I think that the tox results and totality of the circumstances certainly at least "explain" why she reacted the way she did.

And if she's not convicted, it will be extremely difficult for the family to prevail in a civil suit.
 
  • #282
Yeah. Cause of death was not PCP.

Yet, he would be alive if he wasn't high on at least two potent hallucinogens, and driving a car.

That is the truth. His drug use, while DRIVING a car, initiated the situation that brought him into contact with law enforcement.

He would be alive if he had not been using hallucinogens. That's the bare, honest, hard truth. Actions have consequences. His own actions set in motion the situation that led to his death. There is no way to sugar coat, or deny, that hard truth.

The family even said, in their statement, that the FINDINGS of the medical examiner are "unfortunate." Excuse me?? The ME reported the objective facts of the tox report. What is "unfortunate" is that this man was using hallucinogenic drugs while driving. It's "unfortunate" that the family wants to excuse his behavior, as thought it was merely a "mistake", and deny that his behavior initiated the entire situation in the first place, and contributed to his death at the hands of LE. That is what's "unfortunate."
 
  • #283
He would be alive if she hadn't shot him.
 
  • #284
He would be alive if she hadn't shot him.

Maybe he would be alive. Maybe not. Driving and taking hallucinogens is not a safe set of circumstances. He could quite easily have died from his own actions under the drug, or killed or maimed others. This is not a substance like marijuana-- and the potency is not consistent. These are very, very dangerous and unpredictable substances. It's extremely likely he was a chronic user, as well.

There is no way to separate his voluntary actions-- driving and taking potent hallucinogens, from the totality of what happened, and from initiating the entire confrontation due to his choices. IMO, he bears more than 50% of the responsibility for his death. The officers were not out stalking or profiling him, or preying on him-- they responded to his behavior. If he hadn't done drugs, gone driving, and acted erratically and uncooperatively, the police would never have encountered him.

Those who do illegal drugs are responsible for their actions, legally. He would have been facing a lot of charges, had he lived. He is not blameless in this set of very unfortunate circumstances. The family should admit that, instead of blaming everyone else, including the medical examiner for "finding" the drug levels.
 
  • #285
  • #286
Maybe he would be alive. Maybe not. Driving and taking hallucinogens is not a safe set of circumstances. He could quite easily have died from his own actions under the drug, or killed or maimed others. This is not a substance like marijuana-- and the potency is not consistent. These are very, very dangerous and unpredictable substances. It's extremely likely he was a chronic user, as well.

There is no way to separate his voluntary actions-- driving and taking potent hallucinogens, from the totality of what happened, and from initiating the entire confrontation due to his choices. IMO, he bears more than 50% of the responsibility for his death. The officers were not out stalking or profiling him, or preying on him-- they responded to his behavior. If he hadn't done drugs, gone driving, and acted erratically and uncooperatively, the police would never have encountered him.

Those who do illegal drugs are responsible for their actions, legally. He would have been facing a lot of charges, had he lived. He is not blameless in this set of very unfortunate circumstances. The family should admit that, instead of blaming everyone else, including the medical examiner for "finding" the drug levels.

I think before you start making statements about what Mr. Crutcher's family should and should not be saying, you should take your time and read this thread from the very beginning. The Crutcher family has handled this entire situation from jump street with dignity and grace. There has been no hysteria. There have been encouraging words from them to please pray instead of express anger in the streets. I have closely followed this case since an hour after he was killed, I am local, I am the daughter of a cop, and I have watched what has happened in many other cities. Our police chief immediately released the video to the family, community leaders, pastors, the Mayor and Mayor-elect, and all of these folks spoke to Tulsa for several days about what was about to be released. The family asked Tulsa to please respect their wishes and to protest if you wish, but peacefully only. Violence is not what they are about.

Dr. Tiffany Crutcher, his twin sister, always spoke eloquently and was the family spokesperson. There were many press conferences and she was a pillar of strength. We had not one incident of violence or out of control behavior and there were many protests over the weeks following the killing.

The Chief of police told the Crutcher family before anyone else knew that they did find a vial of PCP in the car. This came out later. They were not unaware that he was battling a problem. So please, before you dissect the language of the family's many statements through the attorneys, have a seat and read the entire thread.
 
  • #287
IMO

I don't feel the autopsy results will have a great impact on the case. The videos already show him not complying - now we just have a better understanding of a possible "why". The charges were brought knowing there was pcp in the vehicle.
Regardless, she did not follow protocol.
Officers are trained to restrain uncooperative subjects without use of deadly force when none is warranted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #288
Maybe he would be alive. Maybe not. Driving and taking hallucinogens is not a safe set of circumstances. He could quite easily have died from his own actions under the drug, or killed or maimed others. This is not a substance like marijuana-- and the potency is not consistent. These are very, very dangerous and unpredictable substances. It's extremely likely he was a chronic user, as well.

There is no way to separate his voluntary actions-- driving and taking potent hallucinogens, from the totality of what happened, and from initiating the entire confrontation due to his choices. IMO, he bears more than 50% of the responsibility for his death. The officers were not out stalking or profiling him, or preying on him-- they responded to his behavior. If he hadn't done drugs, gone driving, and acted erratically and uncooperatively, the police would never have encountered him.

Those who do illegal drugs are responsible for their actions, legally. He would have been facing a lot of charges, had he lived. He is not blameless in this set of very unfortunate circumstances. The family should admit that, instead of blaming everyone else, including the medical examiner for "finding" the drug levels.

Are you serious right now. Are. You. Serious. Right. Now. This man is DEAD, he is the VICTIM. Every action taken since Shelby murdered him has been en pointe and handled with grace and dignity and you're insulting him because he had a drug problem. His actions were to put his hands up in the air and walk slowly and he's dead now because of the OFFICER'S actions, her admitted physical limitations, and her emotional overreaction (as stated by her very own supporters).

Are you serious.

I wonder why people get so angry when these things happen? Maybe it's putting the blame on the dead man no matter what he did or didn't do, every single time.
 
  • #289
Yes. I'm quite serious, and I stand by my earlier posts. He is absolutely not blameless for how this went down, IMO. His choices and actions initiated and escalated the entire situation. I don't think I'm the only one who sees it this way.

This man was a SUSPECT (not "victim") the minute he began being uncooperative with commands from FOUR police officers. Three officers had their weapons drawn, and one discharged his taser. That means a total of FOUR officers believed this man was an IMMINENT THREAT. The taser was just one step below lethal force, which 3 of the 4 officers were poised to use, and Officer Shelby actually did use. There is dispute as to whether the window was rolled up or down, and the position of his arms and hands. That will come out definitively, as will any audio available, and the statements of the other officers.

Officer Shelby is reported to have extensive training in recognizing the behaviors of acute drug intoxication, particularly PCP, and it seems her educated observations, and conclusions, were entirely correct. We now know about the vial of PCP in the car, and the acute intoxication on TWO potent hallucinogens. And we know about the man's extensive and violent criminal history. I'm interested to know if any of the officers knew about his history? Had they run his plate-- was the SUV registered to him? He had a known history of PCP use, resisting arrest, and in 2012 (I think he had just been released from prison for drug trafficking), it took about 3 officers and multiple taser shots to subdue and arrest him.That's not insignificant.

Crutcher received suspended sentences after entering a no-contest plea to charges of carrying a weapon and resisting an officer, court records show. Oklahoma prison officials confirmed Crutcher also served four years in prison from 2007 to 2011 on a Tulsa County drug-trafficking conviction.

Court records show officers used force against Crutcher on at least four separate occasions, including a 2012 arrest on public intoxication and obstruction complaints. In that case, an officer used a stun gun on Crutcher twice while he was face down on the ground because the officer said Crutcher didn't comply with at least three orders to show his hands, a police affidavit states. Crutcher's father showed up while he was being arrested and told the officers that his son had "an ongoing problem" with the drug PCP, the affidavit states.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/09/22/terence-crutcher-shooting-what-we-know/

So, given all this, I think Officer Shelby certainly deserves her day in court, unless the prosecutor wants to drop the charges or offer a plea to a lesser charge, at a minimum. There is the fact that ALL FOUR officers perceived this man to be a SUSPECT, and an imminent threat. (Because of his noncompliance and refusing commands, and their concerns he was reaching for a weapon.)

As I said before, Officer Shelby will be subject to internal review and possible discipline if she did not follow protocol. The situation is far from "clear cut" that she acted inappropriately. I think it will be nearly impossible to persuade a jury of 12 people that the totality of the situation is not critical to understanding why she discharged her firearm. Her actions may merit discipline, or even firing her, but I'm extremely doubtful that a jury of 12 people will convict her criminally for manslaughter.

This suspect is not "blameless", as I said before. His own actions initiated, and escalated, the situation with officers. He has had MANY interactions with police, he has been jailed, and served a long stint in prison, so even in his altered state, he should have known how to behave during an encounter with LE. But maybe, just maybe, he KNEW he was high, he knew he had PCP in the car, and he KNEW he was going to be headed back to prison. That certainly could have impacted his behavior and cooperation, along with the acute PCP and TCP intoxication. He may have been angry police showed up, and desperate to avoid more prison time. (Do we even know if his car was actually broken down? Do we know if a weapon was in the car?)

Had he cooperated, and not been high on drugs and presenting a threat, he'd likely still be alive. Officers would have called a tow truck, and probably given him a ride if he needed one. His family, activist attorney Crump, and a whole lot of leftist leaning internet commenters, are trying mightily (as usual) to disregard and deflect a suspect's personal responsibility for their criminal actions, from the response of law enforcement to the imminent threat situation. The media pours gasoline on the half truths by persistently reporting that these suspects were "unarmed", as though reaching for weapons, or attempting to disarm police officers, or noncompliance with lawful orders, is somehow insignificant or irrelevant. The media disregards the "imminent threat" as irrelevant, because it's inconvenient to their collective narrative that police are always brutal and evil towards "people of color".

And the prosecutor in this case rushed to file charges before the autopsy was even completed, which was stupid, pandering, and unnecessary, IMO. Just like Marilyn Mosby in Baltimore, and that didn't go well for her.

Officer Shelby will have her opportunity to present her side of the situation. I don't think she will be convicted of any criminal charges.

And I'll add this. The family should have acknowledged his ongoing PCP use, and said HIS DRUG USE was
"unfortunate" choices on TC's part. They should not have said it was "unfortunate" that the ME did his job, and documented the PCP and TCP blood levels. The implication was that it was "unfortunate" that the EVIDENCE showed TC was engaged in yet more criminal activity, for which he has a long and documented history. I don't think their public statement about the medical examiner is anything to celebrate, or perceive as being "classy". It comes across as yet another excuse for criminal behavior on the part of the suspect, and blaming the ME for "discovering" that. IMO.

The ACLU statement was beyond ridiculous. Does the ACLU guy, Ryan Kiesel, even have the most basic grasp of physiology? He came across as very ignorant, about science and physiology, IMO. Maybe that was intentional, IDK. "Create doubt" "cast suspicion" and all that.
 
  • #290
OK I haven't even finished reading your post, but have you watched the video? Of him being killed? Or should I say videos? One is shot from the helicopter and one is shot from the dashcam. The helicopter video has audio. It also has Betty Shelby's husband in the helicopter. She called for backup. These other cops were there simply to back her up. Why the helicopter and her husband were hovering overhead has yet to be explained but they're there too.

Nobody ran his plates. Nobody knew anything about this man except that Betty Shelby called for backup and was "in fear of her life". In her own words. As we see on the video, this man was not moving aggressively, he was not skittish, he was walking slowly with hands up (as one knows to do when one is looking down the barrels of several guns). He was walking away from her. She had already cleared the driver's side of his car (and yes, that IS his car), he approached the driver's side, appeared to place his hand on the vehicle. Her backup states audibly that he is going to use his taser. He uses his taser. This method is effective, but Betty Shelby goes ahead and kills him.

It's interesting to me that you are defending this officer more than the Chief of Police, her boss.
 
  • #291
Yes. I have watched all of the videos I could find.
 
  • #292
Unbelievable.
 
  • #293
We are VICTIM friendly here, are we not? An officer has been charged, which means the prosecutor felt there was enough to try her. So she is the suspect, NOT TC. I really don't want to hear about his prior drug use, incarcerations, or altercations. ALL that matters here is the actions in the moments preceding the shooting.

Walking slowly, AWAY
Hands up
No aggression


As evidenced by the many videos available. I cannot believe this is even a conversation about how Terence Crutcher is to blame. I really can't. We get threads shut down ALL the time for questioning police officers and here we have what everyone, including the Chief of Police and police department feel was an unjustified shooting and STILL the dead man is to blame. For his past. Not his actions, HIS PAST.

Let's add the officers stats:
Emotionally overreacted (her words)
Physically impaired (fact)
History of drug use
History of assault

Why is this allowed? Why are we allowed to blame the victim like this in this type of situation? I am so very lost and confused.
 
  • #294
We are VICTIM friendly here, are we not? An officer has been charged, which means the prosecutor felt there was enough to try her. So she is the suspect, NOT TC. I really don't want to hear about his prior drug use, incarcerations, or altercations. ALL that matters here is the actions in the moments preceding the shooting.Walking slowly, AWAYHands upNo aggressionAs evidenced by the many videos available. I cannot believe this is even a conversation about how Terence Crutcher is to blame. I really can't. We get threads shut down ALL the time for questioning police officers and here we have what everyone, including the Chief of Police and police department feel was an unjustified shooting and STILL the dead man is to blame. For his past. Not his actions, HIS PAST. Let's add the officers stats:Emotionally overreacted (her words)Physically impaired (fact)History of drug useHistory of assaultWhy is this allowed? Why are we allowed to blame the victim like this in this type of situation? I am so very lost and confused.

"Why is this allowed? Why are we allowed to blame the victim like this in this type of situation?"

i would suppose it is because sometimes there are disagreements regarding who is truly a "victim" in each case.

also there always seems to be a lot of confusion about what information is "fair" to be publicized.

i would say that his tox results are relevant to understanding her possible attempts to justify her actions, since there is evidence that she believed that he was under the influence.and his past history is relevant to us, as private citizens, trying to understand the totality of the situation. but his past criminal record etc is only relevant to understanding her actions if she was aware of it at the time, which we dont know for sure.

as i said early on i doubt she will be found guilty of any criminal charge, but i do not see any justification for her firing her weapon, i do not want it to be the law that deadly force is justified in these situations. ie this was not a pursuit that ended and officers had reason to believe the person was armed etc... this was a chance encounter with someone acting erratically.
 
  • #295
We are VICTIM friendly here, are we not? An officer has been charged, which means the prosecutor felt there was enough to try her. So she is the suspect, NOT TC. I really don't want to hear about his prior drug use, incarcerations, or altercations. ALL that matters here is the actions in the moments preceding the shooting.

Walking slowly, AWAY
Hands up
No aggression


As evidenced by the many videos available. I cannot believe this is even a conversation about how Terence Crutcher is to blame. I really can't. We get threads shut down ALL the time for questioning police officers and here we have what everyone, including the Chief of Police and police department feel was an unjustified shooting and STILL the dead man is to blame. For his past. Not his actions, HIS PAST.

Let's add the officers stats:
Emotionally overreacted (her words)
Physically impaired (fact)
History of drug use
History of assault

Why is this allowed? Why are we allowed to blame the victim like this in this type of situation? I am so very lost and confused.

I don't get it either. And his family. Come on.
 
  • #296
"Why is this allowed? Why are we allowed to blame the victim like this in this type of situation?"

i would suppose it is because sometimes there are disagreements regarding who is truly a "victim" in each case.

also there always seems to be a lot of confusion about what information is "fair" to be publicized.

i would say that his tox results are relevant to understanding her possible attempts to justify her actions, since there is evidence that she believed that he was under the influence.and his past history is relevant to us, as private citizens, trying to understand the totality of the situation. but his past criminal record etc is only relevant to understanding her actions if she was aware of it at the time, which we dont know for sure.

as i said early on i doubt she will be found guilty of any criminal charge, but i do not see any justification for her firing her weapon, i do not want it to be the law that deadly force is justified in these situations. ie this was not a pursuit that ended and officers had reason to believe the person was armed etc... this was a chance encounter with someone acting erratically.

BBM, and the following is not directed at you in particular, drjones.

My problem I have with using the fact that he was high on PCP as a justification for the shooting is that he didn't do anything remotely threatening. Of course being high on PCP is going to make somebody more likely to behave erratically but it doesn't always make people violent. BTW I have no problem with the use of the taser since he was not complying. Many LEO's across the country expressed the sentiment that she should have never used lethal force in this situation, and I cannot agree more.

And bashing his family, who has been nothing but respectable in this situation, because they used the word "unfortunate" while referring to the finding that he had PCP in his system is disgraceful IMO. You're clutching at straws if you're going after the family for something that their attorney said that wasn't even fully explained. "Unfortunate" in that statement could be read as that it's unfortunate that we found out he was using PCP again when this happened.
 
  • #297
I understand that members of this forum will always have disagreements but it’s disheartening that people here can be so far apart because it is a microcosm of the rest of the country. Some seem unwilling to even look at the other persons point of view. Soon this thread will also be shut down as have many others I’ve been following looking for any new developments and insight from other members
 
  • #298
zoosleuth, i understand what you are saying, the fact that he was on PCP cannot be the sole justification for deadly force. but it is a valid consideration when viewing the entire situation and trying to justify her actions. in this case i have not yet seen the other thing/s that would be necessary to justify deadly force.
 
  • #299
BBM, and the following is not directed at you in particular, drjones.
And bashing his family, who has been nothing but respectable in this situation, because they used the word "unfortunate" while referring to the finding that he had PCP in his system is disgraceful IMO. You're clutching at straws if you're going after the family for something that their attorney said that wasn't even fully explained. "Unfortunate" in that statement could be read as that it's unfortunate that we found out he was using PCP again when this happened.

Snipped for focus.

Then why didn't the family simply express sadness and disappointment that TC was using again? If they had to express anything at all in public about his drug use. They knew. They knew quite a while ago that PCP had been found in the car. And because of the presence of the drugs in the car, and his history, it was overwhelmingly likely TC was going to be positive for at least one drug, the PCP, at autopsy-- and he ended up being positive for TWO hallucinogens. So this was no big surprise to them, IMO.

We don't know how much was in "the vial", but any PCP in the car for a man with a history of long term use and convictions for trafficking is not just "bad" or "unfortunate"-- it is CRIMINAL, and incriminating, and meant that he would have been facing felony charges and prison AGAIN. And depending on how much was in the "vial", the charges could have been for more than possession-- intent to distribute.

So, I can't interpret their comment as simply "we're sad he was using again". The hypocrisy of their comment, IMO, literally screams "we're frustrated and annoyed that the medical examiner CAUGHT him using again, because it's not just unfortunate, but it's criminal, and we know that. And we've been through this so many times with him."

And if we want to talk about "classy" behavior-- the man is only dead a few days, and the autopsy isn't even complete, and his FAMILY is in the news fighting over which one gets to file a civil lawsuit! That's disgusting, IMO, and really unseemly behavior. And apparently TC and the common law wife BOTH lost custody of their children, which got splashed into the media with their hurry to see who could file lawsuits first to get money. So much for protecting the privacy of the kids. So no, I don't think this family has behaved in a "classy" or respectable way at all. This is their PUBLIC behavior I'm criticizing. They could have simply asked for privacy, and stayed out of the media all together, but they didn't. They even posed for pictures and gave press conferences, so they are fair game for criticism.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/terence-crutcher-parents-widow-fight-estate-article-1.2807189

It is interesting that different people can view the same set of events, and come to completely different conclusions. That's an example of the greatness of "diversity", right? And that's what a jury does.

The comments and interpretations I've posted are sure to be brought up by Officer Shelby's attorney team, as well. Just because she is charged, doesn't mean she is guilty. It's my opinion that the prosecutor was FAR too eager and premature to file charges. The investigation was far from complete. That may end up being a serious miscalculation, IMO, just as it was for Marilyn Mosby in Baltimore. Because it smacks of malicious prosecution for political reasons. Not a good image for a prosecutor, IMO.
 
  • #300
Projecting our own prejudices and biases onto the family is really unfair. They're grieving.
 

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